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Why Two Step Will Be Missed On The CSM

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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#41 - 2013-04-26 03:24:06 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
He was. Are you advocating Skype log leaks as a viable tool for communicating with the players?


A member of CSM 7 and probable member of CSM 8 is caught red handed lying and all you can do is ask if I consider leaked documents a viable communications tool.

He has shown full well that he has lied to the playerbase, he has pointed the finger at fellow CSM members to aid CCP. He has shown us why we as players should demand more of our CSM. They are the voice of the players, not a mouth piece for CCP.

Yes it is nice for the CSM to work with CCP, but not at the cost of their independence.


Public accusations of lying now, is it?

About what, precisely?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#42 - 2013-04-26 03:36:48 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
A member of CSM 7 and probable member of CSM 8 is caught red handed lying and all you can do is ask if I consider leaked documents a viable communications tool.


Trebor lies, often. It's the politician in him, and it's been well established by now. The current crop of CSM candidates don't care, the past CSM doesn't care, CCP doesn't care, and I'd bet that when the results for the election comes in, you'll find that the voters don't really care either.

You really need to stop acting like this whole thing is a court of law and that if you "catch" him, it'll somehow affect him in any way. Especially when all you've got is ticky-tack **** like this and the "OMG THE WIKI HAS NOT BEEN UPDATED THE SECRETARY HAS FAILED" thing you've been on about before. Even if you've got some kind of delusion about being able to affect his standing, take a step back and realize that by going all rabid you're just galvanizing everyone else's opinion.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Frying Doom
#43 - 2013-04-26 04:28:15 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
A member of CSM 7 and probable member of CSM 8 is caught red handed lying and all you can do is ask if I consider leaked documents a viable communications tool.


Trebor lies, often. It's the politician in him, and it's been well established by now. The current crop of CSM candidates don't care, the past CSM doesn't care, CCP doesn't care, and I'd bet that when the results for the election comes in, you'll find that the voters don't really care either.

You really need to stop acting like this whole thing is a court of law and that if you "catch" him, it'll somehow affect him in any way. Especially when all you've got is ticky-tack **** like this and the "OMG THE WIKI HAS NOT BEEN UPDATED THE SECRETARY HAS FAILED" thing you've been on about before. Even if you've got some kind of delusion about being able to affect his standing, take a step back and realize that by going all rabid you're just galvanizing everyone else's opinion.

And I think that says a lot about why the elections have such a crap turn out.

Have you read the comments on EvE News 24, related to the CSM.

Because the CSM does not care, The players don't care. The reputation of the CSM is so low, it appears it is valued more by CCP as a PR tool, than the players.

As to the other "Trebor probably misspoke"

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#44 - 2013-04-26 04:36:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Snow Axe
Frying Doom wrote:
And I think that says a lot about why the elections have such a crap turn out."


Sure, if you're literally dumb enough to think that even a percentage point of turnout relates to specific candidates. Are you literally that dumb, Frying Doom?

(and yes, I actually read all of what you're talking about, and it's ticky-tack as hell)

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Frying Doom
#45 - 2013-04-26 05:09:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Snow Axe wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
And I think that says a lot about why the elections have such a crap turn out."


Sure, if you're literally dumb enough to think that even a percentage point of turnout relates to specific candidates. Are you literally that dumb, Frying Doom?

(and yes, I actually read all of what you're talking about, and it's ticky-tack as hell)

I was talking about the fact that the CSM does not care!!!

If the CSM does not care about its members getting caught in a lie, why should the players care about it.
A member of the CSM is banned for over 3 months, but no one cares to inform the playerbase that a member of our voice was banned.

In the CSM 7 the Chairman had RL, responsibilities, he did not care enough about the office to step down. So why should the players care?
The Chairman was gone and the Vice-Chairman did not care enough for the office to step up. So why should the players care?

The Secretary did not care about his office. So why should the players care?

The Vice-Secretary seeing the Secretary not giving a crap about that office did not bother to step up. So why should the players care?

The fact that the members of the CSM do not seem to care about their offices is complete and total crap. If we want people to care about the CSM and vote, those people holding the offices of the CSM bloody well better care about the positions they chose to hold.

All of the members of the CSM are chosen by their fellow players to represent them to CCP. They are not chosen to lie, backstab and act as the voice of CCP.

A CSM that acts as the voice of the players is worth a lot more than a bunch of beta testers, more interested in rubbing shoulders with CCP.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2013-04-26 05:18:03 UTC
So you're saying you ARE literally dumb enough to think that a specific CSM lying about some things is really the difference between people voting and not voting? I just want to clear that up so we can move onto your next histrionic fit, in the vain hope that maybe they'll run out eventually.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
dark heartt
#47 - 2013-04-26 05:49:02 UTC
Who was banned for 3 months?

http://tetrisisunrealistic.blogspot.com.au/
Frying Doom
#48 - 2013-04-26 05:56:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Snow Axe wrote:
So you're saying you ARE literally dumb enough to think that a specific CSM lying about some things is really the difference between people voting and not voting? I just want to clear that up so we can move onto your next histrionic fit, in the vain hope that maybe they'll run out eventually.

"Ridicule is man's most potent weapon. Ridicule undermines a pilot's pride in their corporation or alliance and thus undercuts their motivation to participate. Logistics may win battles, but winning wars is all about defeating the will to log in."
http://themittani.com/books/rules-radicals

Just because you do not wish to face the truth that the actions of past, current and future CSM members do and will effect voter turn out, calling me dumb is rather poor ridicule.

The actions of the CSM members do effect how, the players view the CSM and whether they can be bothered voting.

So no it is not about a specific CSM member, it as I described above is about all of them, especially those in officer roles.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
dark heartt
#49 - 2013-04-26 06:06:42 UTC  |  Edited by: dark heartt
Never mind found out it was D3 elsewhere (and nothing of value was lost there IMO. I'm sure the guy did nothing to help the CSM anyway and the remaining members of the CSM probably weren't allowed to talk about his ban).

http://tetrisisunrealistic.blogspot.com.au/
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2013-04-26 06:06:59 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Just because you do not wish to face the truth that the actions of past, current and future CSM members do and will effect voter turn out, calling me dumb is rather poor ridicule.

The actions of the CSM members do effect how, the players view the CSM and whether they can be bothered voting..


Of course they do. What I'm taking issue with is your ridiculous (and quite frankly egotistical) assertion that all of these nonsensical things you've "discovered" are key factors in low turnout.

CSM 5 and 6 produced circumstances that led to a rise in voters (CSM 5 by damaging nullsec, thus encouraging them to vote, and CSM 6 by presiding over the Summer of Rage and Crucible), and yes, I wouldn't be surprised if CSM 7 sees a decrease. If they do though, it'd be due to their actions as a whole - largely their disastrous image which they seemed either clueless or unwilling to fix - not because you caught Trebor in a barely significant lie.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Frying Doom
#51 - 2013-04-26 06:18:18 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Just because you do not wish to face the truth that the actions of past, current and future CSM members do and will effect voter turn out, calling me dumb is rather poor ridicule.

The actions of the CSM members do effect how, the players view the CSM and whether they can be bothered voting..


Of course they do. What I'm taking issue with is your ridiculous (and quite frankly egotistical) assertion that all of these nonsensical things you've "discovered" are key factors in low turnout.

CSM 5 and 6 produced circumstances that led to a rise in voters (CSM 5 by damaging nullsec, thus encouraging them to vote, and CSM 6 by presiding over the Summer of Rage and Crucible), and yes, I wouldn't be surprised if CSM 7 sees a decrease. If they do though, it'd be due to their actions as a whole - largely their disastrous image which they seemed either clueless or unwilling to fix - not because you caught Trebor in a barely significant lie.


I would completely agree with that.

The reaction to the whole leak, by players has shown just how little they now care about the CSM. The lie, the leak, the ban, the lack of transparency over how we got the STV system, the CSM 7 activity page are all just symptoms of a disease now infesting the CSM.

The cure for it, is for CSM8 members to be proud to represent the players, and for the office holders to treat their offices with the highest respect.

CSM8 members need to uphold the highest standards or it will easily slip into the abyss that claimed CSM7.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#52 - 2013-04-26 06:38:57 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
The reaction to the whole leak, by players has shown just how little they now care about the CSM. The lie, the leak, the ban, the lack of transparency over how we got the STV system, the CSM 7 activity page are all just symptoms of a disease now infesting the CSM.


I love how your "symptoms of a disease" not only include things that only you care about (the lie, the ban, the activity page), but it also leaves out actual real shortcomings of the past CSM - like say Trebor's proposing that wardec stuff in the name of CCP's profit margins, the Chair/Vice-Chair largely being absentee and the effects it had on communication with the players, stuff like that.

But no, you can't point out that obvious stuff that someone else might agree with - you've got to stick to the **** you found yourself. After all, if you actually spoke of general things instead of non-issues that you've been desperately trying to sell to people for days if not weeks now, someone might actually mistake you for being an advocate for change, rather than a third-rate attention whore crying out for acceptance.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Prince Kobol
#53 - 2013-04-26 06:40:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Prince Kobol
What I find horrible is that D3 *might* of been right...

Whilst typing that line is something I thought I would never do over the past few days it is starting to look like he was not trolling but was in fact telling the truth that A CCP Dev was fired for breaking the rules and that maybe he was helping an alliance in game by giving them information.

At the moment the finger is being pointed to CCP ******* to being the Dev who was fired last summer...

Now if ****** was sacked for breaking the rules then good on CCP.. what I find worrying is the implication that he was giving people in game information and that neither the CCP or CSM made any kind of announcement.

Both parties must of know that at some point D3 would come out with this information so instead of being open and honest they choose to close ranks, ban D3 and what.. hope it all goes away?

Even more worrying is that a number of the CSM members ridiculed D3 months back when he made his claim on these forums, so the question is,

Did the CSM know about ****** and were running interference for CCP or did the CSM have no idea which would mean D3 was privy to information that the rest of the CSM were not?
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#54 - 2013-04-26 06:43:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Snow Axe
Prince Kobol wrote:
what I find worrying is the implication that he was giving people in game information and that neither the CCP or CSM made any kind of announcement.


What purpose would an announcement serve, other than to rile up thousands of idiotic neckbeards into a "let's harass the **** out of whoever we figure the offending dev is" frenzy?

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
dark heartt
#55 - 2013-04-26 06:49:56 UTC  |  Edited by: dark heartt
And not only that, but was it covered by NDA as far as the CSM was concerned?

Truth is, what's done is done and it's all CSM8 now.

http://tetrisisunrealistic.blogspot.com.au/
Prince Kobol
#56 - 2013-04-26 06:50:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Prince Kobol
Snow Axe wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
what I find worrying is the implication that he was giving people in game information and that neither the CCP or CSM made any kind of announcement.


What purpose would an announcement serve, other than to rile up thousands of idiotic neckbeards into a "let's harass the **** out of whoever we figure the offending dev is" frenzy?



Its called transparency...

You know, being open and honest with the player base.

Where as now we have the situation where it makes CCP look like they are hiding something and the CSM look even worse.

Look, I think D3 is a complete idiot, a self loving ***hole who craves attention.

However all CCP and possibly the CSM has done is give D3 more ammunition and further validation his cause that the CSM is spineless and that CCP Devs are still helping players in game and anything that give D3 validation is a bad thing.
Frying Doom
#57 - 2013-04-26 06:54:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
dark heartt wrote:
And not only that, but was it covered by NDA?

It was covered by their policy not to comment on bans publicly.

But the fact we lost a member of our voice with no notification is quiet frankly wrong.

These are not just players, they are our representatives to CCP.

I wonder if they included his votes in the count for wasted votes like they did The Mittani's.

As we lost 2 members of CSM7, maybe they do need to bring back the alternates idea.
The they could have just said "Due to an ongoing investigation by Internal Affairs, we have activated CSM alternate #2, to insure the playerbase is properly represented"

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#58 - 2013-04-26 06:57:00 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
[Its called transparency...

You know, being open and honest with the player base.

Where as now we have the situation where it makes CCP look like they are hiding something and the CSM look even worse


There's a limit to the usefulness of transparency. Telling us about staff firings is on the "useless" side of that, right next to "what did CCP Soundwave have for lunch today?".

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Prince Kobol
#59 - 2013-04-26 06:59:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Prince Kobol
Snow Axe wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
[Its called transparency...

You know, being open and honest with the player base.

Where as now we have the situation where it makes CCP look like they are hiding something and the CSM look even worse


There's a limit to the usefulness of transparency. Telling us about staff firings is on the "useless" side of that, right next to "what did CCP Soundwave have for lunch today?".


Very true, however this was not somebody have a second helping of pudding, this was somebody who using tools for non-work related purposes tools in order to give somebody in game an advantage..

We also have the situation now where this is generating news on 3 of the most heavily used 3rd party Eve forums, 1 of the most read eve news sites and on one of the most popular Eve Blogs.

All this does is generate conspiracy theories, wild accusations and creates a distrust between the playerbase and CCP, something which they have been working hard to fix since Incarna.
Frying Doom
#60 - 2013-04-26 07:02:36 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
[Its called transparency...

You know, being open and honest with the player base.

Where as now we have the situation where it makes CCP look like they are hiding something and the CSM look even worse


There's a limit to the usefulness of transparency. Telling us about staff firings is on the "useless" side of that, right next to "what did CCP Soundwave have for lunch today?".

We did not need to be informed of a Staff firing, only that a CSM member had been banned, pending an investigation.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!