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Should someone have a chance to tackle a PvE'r that is doing everything right?
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Frying Doom
#81 - 2013-04-20 00:34:48 UTC
Andski wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Making usage tied straight to Sovereignty will fix a lot of these problems.

If a single neut will stop you doing anything, you will lose sov, simple as that, then risk will very much equal reward, for both parties.


Let's make 90% of nullsec even more irrelevant, that's a great idea!

You mean the fact that every time I go out into Null, I find a completely deserted system with an TCU in it.

You mean irrelevant like that...Use the space or lose it.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#82 - 2013-04-20 00:36:36 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
You mean the fact that every time I go out into Null, I find a completely deserted system with an TCU in it.

You mean irrelevant like that...Use the space or lose it.


Do you honestly think someone else will see an opportunity to hold a system by "only" getting together a bunch of dudes to run ****** anomalies for 20m/hour

Hint: they won't and your idea is Bad

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#83 - 2013-04-20 00:41:30 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Georgina Parmala wrote:
LHA Tarawa wrote:
[
To find out the answer to this question, simply look at the amount of PvE and mining that occurs in a null system with a single cloaky camper. (NONE!)

That is the level of activity there would be if it was not possible to "do everything right".

In a Wormhole, it's already not possible to always do everything right. There is always a chance there is a cloaky in system, that will point you long enough for a dictor to get on grid from outside dscan range. Then bring enough friends to send you to K space on the pod express.

And yet people rat and mine in wormholes all the time.

So no.



And what % of toons live in wormhole? 5%? You think you prove me wrong, but actually, you prove me right.

Not to mention, if you've not opened your out, and there is no generic in... the odds of that cloaky being there is pretty darn small.

It's not uncommon for my hole to get 4-6 connections on a fri/sat/sun and more often than not someone will do me the favor of opening my static for me when I don't want to. The odds of a cloaky are not that small, all it takes is someone opening their static into my hole and happening to appear outside Dscan range/cloaking between scans, they're then pretty much free to have their way with me. Sometimes, I just couldn't be bothered to close down half a dozen 3bil holes with a battleship or two. I just ship down what I'm using to rat, live on dscan, salvage in a cheap destroyer and deal with it when I get popped. Ships are meant to explode.


The point is that (some) people will take any and all risks if the reward is big enough. Why would you simply assume a risk change this significant would not be accompanied by reward changes to warrant it? You just presume it would end with everyone moving to high sec, because everyone is a carebear and is unwilling to accept any risk. The same way I presume there would be a remaining population trying against all odds, because they are not.

Science and Trade Institute [STI] is an NPC entity and as such my views do not represent those of the entity or any of its members

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=276984&p=38
Frying Doom
#84 - 2013-04-20 00:42:32 UTC
Andski wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
You mean the fact that every time I go out into Null, I find a completely deserted system with an TCU in it.

You mean irrelevant like that...Use the space or lose it.


Do you honestly think someone else will see an opportunity to hold a system by "only" getting together a bunch of dudes to run ****** anomalies for 20m/hour

Hint: they won't and your idea is Bad

The idea that you must mine, rat, do anoms ect in space is a hell of a lot better than the one we have right now, which is large alliances take everything and then pay the fees with isk generated by moon mining. Leaving no space for smaller corps and null empty as hell.

I can very well see why you would be against the idea of having to use space, but yes the income in Null is crap and needs to be buffed as well, as do POS manufacturing and frankly an almost complete removal of structure grind in relation to sovereignty.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#85 - 2013-04-20 00:51:35 UTC
Georgina Parmala wrote:

The point is that (some) people will take any and all risks if the reward is big enough.



Yeah, 5% of the player base, or so. And those people are already in wormholes.
Chokichi Ozuwara
Perkone
Caldari State
#86 - 2013-04-20 00:53:21 UTC
Posting in a stealth "nerf PVE" thread.

Tears will be shed and pants will need to be changed all round.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#87 - 2013-04-20 00:59:02 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:

The idea that you must mine, rat, do anoms ect in space is a hell of a lot better than the one we have right now, which is large alliances take everything and then pay the fees with isk generated by moon mining. Leaving no space for smaller corps and null empty as hell.


Let's say for a moment, there is a fully upgrade system.. then a cloaky camper shows up with cynos. The owners try to mine, rat, etc, they get hot dropped. They put out a defense fleet, but that of course, is just feeding more kills to the cloaky because they 100% control whether there is an engagement or not, and only engage when they win.

So... you go weeks cloaky camped in, not mining or ratting, because the complete inability to find a cloaky camper is the is the single most stupid mechanic in the history of MMOs. AND, let's say you then lose sov due to inactivity.

Who gets the sov? The cloaky camper? Why? He's not done anything but sit cloaked up, ready to pop a cyno should a target appear, but they don't , because the cloaky camper mechanic is the stupidest game mechanic in the history of MMOs.


Let's say the cloaky camper DOES get sov? Okay, to what end? To sit cloaked up in a system that they can't use, because the original owners put their own cloaky camper in system, so he can't do anything with that system he just took control of?


Before we can even THINK of making activity tied to sov, there has to be a way to counter cloaky campers... Otherwise, no one will hold any sov.
Frying Doom
#88 - 2013-04-20 01:05:49 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

The idea that you must mine, rat, do anoms ect in space is a hell of a lot better than the one we have right now, which is large alliances take everything and then pay the fees with isk generated by moon mining. Leaving no space for smaller corps and null empty as hell.


Let's say for a moment, there is a fully upgrade system.. then a cloaky camper shows up with cynos. The owners try to mine, rat, etc, they get hot dropped. They put out a defense fleet, but that of course, is just feeding more kills to the cloaky because they 100% control whether there is an engagement or not, and only engage when they win.

So... you go weeks cloaky camped in, not mining or ratting, because the complete inability to find a cloaky camper is the is the single most stupid mechanic in the history of MMOs. AND, let's say you then lose sov due to inactivity.

Who gets the sov? The cloaky camper? Why? He's not done anything but sit cloaked up, ready to pop a cyno should a target appear, but they don't , because the cloaky camper mechanic is the stupidest game mechanic in the history of MMOs.


Let's say the cloaky camper DOES get sov? Okay, to what end? To sit cloaked up in a system that they can't use, because the original owners put their own cloaky camper in system, so he can't do anything with that system he just took control of?


Before we can even THINK of making activity tied to sov, there has to be a way to counter cloaky campers... Otherwise, no one will hold any sov.

No one would get the sov, as no one is doing anything.

So numbers would still have a purpose, and if someone wants to covert cyno drop you that often with sufficient numbers over a long period of time, yes you should lose.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#89 - 2013-04-20 01:06:58 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Georgina Parmala wrote:

The point is that (some) people will take any and all risks if the reward is big enough.



Yeah, 5% of the player base, or so. And those people are already in wormholes.


I like the part where you ignore all other mechanics differences involved and equate every null dweller with your average high sec dweller.

Also, the point of discussion is not so much "remove local" to begin with, as much as "chance to get caught even when you do everything 100% right". Which is not exactly the same thing. I just brought up the currently existing source of a similar mechanic, and that people still rat and mine when not 100% safe.

For that matter, people still rat and mine in Null with neutral afk cloakies in system. You are yet to prove any spec of non-blue in local = wasteland. Oh, but they're not "doing it right". If they were, they'd just go run incursions.

Science and Trade Institute [STI] is an NPC entity and as such my views do not represent those of the entity or any of its members

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=276984&p=38
Erik Kaassan
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#90 - 2013-04-20 01:19:29 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Erik Kaassan wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
He does have a point in my opinion. You rely on local which instantly alerts you to any hostiles in system. Neither you or your alliance need to do any work to maintain this free intel tool where as he has to do a lot of work and be lucky to get you.


So they should be punished for using a game provided resource to get a leg up on potential predators? Did I get redirected to the World of Warcrap forums?


No of course people shouldn't be punished for playing the game within the rules but the real question is; is a free and instant intel gathering tool (local) a good game mechanic?



It's not a game mechanic at all. It's an unintended consequence of an otherwise normal function. Would YOU not use it out of fairness or some silly space bushido?
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#91 - 2013-04-20 14:50:08 UTC
Erik Kaassan wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Erik Kaassan wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
He does have a point in my opinion. You rely on local which instantly alerts you to any hostiles in system. Neither you or your alliance need to do any work to maintain this free intel tool where as he has to do a lot of work and be lucky to get you.


So they should be punished for using a game provided resource to get a leg up on potential predators? Did I get redirected to the World of Warcrap forums?


No of course people shouldn't be punished for playing the game within the rules but the real question is; is a free and instant intel gathering tool (local) a good game mechanic?



It's not a game mechanic at all. It's an unintended consequence of an otherwise normal function.

How does that make it not a game mechanic?

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#92 - 2013-04-20 15:28:30 UTC
In answer to the OP, you did everything right, my feeling is that if you do everything correct you should get away, simple as that.

WH's are not a good example to use to make a case for no local, because in WH's you do not have hot drops, if you ignore that then you are a complete and uttter idiot.

Even without local people could AFK cloaky camp, if you look at the map details you can see the number of people in system and in station, so all you have to do is check how many blues and then compare, easy that, oh we have someone in system, but what does that mean, more sitting around doing nothing until people find that out due to the number of AFK people. So we can spend longer not playing the game...

At the end of the day I could live without local, however the issue is that the map data and Dotlan gives people a quick way to find activity, free intel like local, so they do not have to send scouts to find people, if you classify local as free intel then what about that data, if you ignore that then you are a hyprocrite gank bear looking for easy kills.

And James Amril-Kesh is so very correct in all his replies, the reward will have to go up by a huge margin as the risk is just too great.

The impact would be that even more people would just head back to HS, which is not a good thing...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Jarod Garamonde
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2013-04-20 20:31:21 UTC
Nuela wrote:
Not sure how to explain this so let me explain by a story of what happened to me a few days ago.

I belong to an alliance in Null. I do the majority of my isk-making/PvE there. When you do this in Null, there are things you need to do:

- I keep the Intelligence channel open so I can 'see' bad guys coming before they even reach me.
- I have local disconnected from chat and set up right in the MIDDLE of my screen so I am constantly looking at it. This way I can see any non-blue coming into local within seconds.
- I only run PvE in systems where there are friendly POS's to warp to. In addition, I have several, nicely placed far-apart safe spots.
- I am constantly running full speed and aligned. I can warp out instantly.
- When a blue comes into my area and I don't recognise the name as someone a know WELL, I warp off.

So, anyway, There was a particular couple fo guys (non-blue) who I must have offended with my big, smartass mouth and they tried to get me. I didn't really know this at the time - just knew that neuts were around more often. A few days ago I get a convo invite from a nuet and he proceeds to complain bitterly that Eve was 'broken', wrong etc etc etc because a friend of his and him have tried to get me for days. They tried everything he said...even getting an alt into the alliance and try to Awox me.

His point was that Eve should be set up so he had a chance to nab me...even though I was 100% prepared at all times when I PvE'd.

Well, maybe he has a point? I don't think so but maybe? Curious as to what others think.

The main thing that made me decide he probably doesn't have a point is if he should have a chance to nab me even though I took all precautions...shouldn't I have a chance to nab him as well when he is trying to nab me? Even though he is doing all the right things, cloaking, etc shouldn't I have a chance to get him in a way he can do nothing about or should it only apply to PvE'ers?



He's just whining because he feels self-entitled.

When a PvE'er gives me the slip, I feel a little let down... but I'm usually impressed by their situational awareness.
If you're the only valid target, I might still chase you until one of us makes a mistake... but usually I'll just move on. I don't do a lot of solo hunting, though.

This guy that tried to dead you sounds like a b****. I think he needs to grow some spaceballs, and stop taking EVE seriously.

That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right...

    [#savethelance]
Jarod Garamonde
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#94 - 2013-04-20 20:34:39 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
In answer to the OP, you did everything right, my feeling is that if you do everything correct you should get away, simple as that.

WH's are not a good example to use to make a case for no local, because in WH's you do not have hot drops, if you ignore that then you are a complete and uttter idiot.

Even without local people could AFK cloaky camp, if you look at the map details you can see the number of people in system and in station, so all you have to do is check how many blues and then compare, easy that, oh we have someone in system, but what does that mean, more sitting around doing nothing until people find that out due to the number of AFK people. So we can spend longer not playing the game...

At the end of the day I could live without local, however the issue is that the map data and Dotlan gives people a quick way to find activity, free intel like local, so they do not have to send scouts to find people, if you classify local as free intel then what about that data, if you ignore that then you are a hyprocrite gank bear looking for easy kills.

And James Amril-Kesh is so very correct in all his replies, the reward will have to go up by a huge margin as the risk is just too great.

The impact would be that even more people would just head back to HS, which is not a good thing...


You and I both know that Blues in system does not mean someone will come to help you. Most of the time, everyone heads for station, when reds and neuts enter system... that's what made me hate null the last time I was out there. What's the point of being in nullsec space, if you don't want to fight?

That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right...

    [#savethelance]
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#95 - 2013-04-20 23:02:41 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
I'm generally on top of my game when I'm ratting, but sometimes my attention slips up. Several months ago I was ratting and for a few minutes didn't pay attention to local as much as I should have been.

And then I saw a neutral Talos landing on grid. Luckily he landed roughly 30 km away from me and I had time to warp out before he closed within point range. I suppose I could have chased him off or killed him, being heavily tanked for kinetic and thermal damage, but I didn't want to take the chance that he had a cyno fit instead of an 8th gun.

So local isn't exactly some perfect tool that keeps you safe all the time. It requires some degree of effort. It's more difficult to pay continuous attention to it for several hours on end than you might think.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Erik Kaassan
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#96 - 2013-04-23 16:50:00 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Erik Kaassan wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Erik Kaassan wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
He does have a point in my opinion. You rely on local which instantly alerts you to any hostiles in system. Neither you or your alliance need to do any work to maintain this free intel tool where as he has to do a lot of work and be lucky to get you.


So they should be punished for using a game provided resource to get a leg up on potential predators? Did I get redirected to the World of Warcrap forums?


No of course people shouldn't be punished for playing the game within the rules but the real question is; is a free and instant intel gathering tool (local) a good game mechanic?



It's not a game mechanic at all. It's an unintended consequence of an otherwise normal function.

How does that make it not a game mechanic?


Perhaps i should rephrase that... it is a creative use of a game mechanic to achieve a goal other than its intended use. It can be likewise be circumvented to prevent it from being used in that manner. It does not fall outside of the game and violate any standing rules if it is used in a way other than it is intended to be used. Why should it be fixed when its not even broken?
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#97 - 2013-04-23 17:22:25 UTC
They could just have awoxed you with a bomber - you would not be prepared.
He didn't try hard enough.
Doc Severide
Doomheim
#98 - 2013-04-23 17:22:47 UTC
Personally, the OP's multiple uses of the word "nab" has some how awakend my sexual interest in my girl friend. Ugh

Later....Big smileBig smileBig smile
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#99 - 2013-04-23 17:33:39 UTC
To give some contrast to the example in the OP, when I'm prowling for ratters to gank, I can jump into a system, get my system scanner running, and during those 10 seconds determine what ranges any ratters on my d-scanner are at, compare those to the results from my system scanner, and be in warp to the anomaly a ratter is in less than 15 seconds after jumping into the system. Without resorting to tactics like awoxing, it is as right as you can possibly get when it comes to ganking. Nevertheless, between those 12-15 seconds to locate a target and the 10-15 seconds required for even a very short (<1AU) warp, he's long gone...because he's got a minimum twenty second head start in which to be "right". That same head start means that the PvEr doesn't even have to do everything right to escape - he can be slow and sloppy and still get away.

Food for thought Blink

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#100 - 2013-04-23 17:41:30 UTC
With as much effort as they put in, you'd think that camping out for a few days with stealth bombers to push you out of comfortable systems wouldn't have been too much work.

I guess they just didn't want it badly enough.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs