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Is overview and ship label XML modification allowed?
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Akturous
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2013-04-18 15:24:39 UTC
Specifically, in light of recent posts on such things, is the modification of the xlm which displays labels in space allowed? Since this would be considered client modification would it not?

Lastly, say I pay for a 12 month subscription, then I'm permabanned, do you refund my money, or do you thieve it?

Vote Item Heck One for CSM8
Dave Stark
#2 - 2013-04-18 15:26:37 UTC
of course you won't get a refund.

they hardly stole it if you broke the rules.
Karbox Delacroix
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#3 - 2013-04-18 15:28:23 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
of course you won't get a refund.

they hardly stole it if you broke the rules.


They just modified their enforcement policy because, as they admitted, the rules were unclear. Not an unreasonable question.
tgl3
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2013-04-18 15:30:52 UTC
Akturous wrote:
Specifically, in light of recent posts on such things, is the modification of the xlm which displays labels in space allowed? Since this would be considered client modification would it not?

Lastly, say I pay for a 12 month subscription, then I'm permabanned, do you refund my money, or do you thieve it?

I cannot 100% answer question 1 I'm afraid, but in the scenario of point 2 - no, you don't get refunded. You broke the rules.
Akturous
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2013-04-18 15:30:53 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
of course you won't get a refund.

they hardly stole it if you broke the rules.


Breaking the rules doesn't remove a contract, specifically, their in game rules have absolutely no hold on a sale contract between myself and CCP games.

Vote Item Heck One for CSM8
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#6 - 2013-04-18 15:30:53 UTC
CCP Peligro wrote:
Big Jim Slade wrote:
What about all those Overview modifications by changing the overviews .xml file? Are you also checking modified .xml files to see if players are making your game more user friendly and ban them?


Nope, no worries on that one. We are after the hackers, botters and the RMTers.


.
Akturous
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2013-04-18 15:31:25 UTC
Is that from the 2010 thread?

Vote Item Heck One for CSM8
tgl3
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2013-04-18 15:32:55 UTC
Akturous wrote:
Is that from the 2010 thread?

No, that's from about 20 minutes ago.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2013-04-18 15:34:10 UTC
Akturous wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
of course you won't get a refund.

they hardly stole it if you broke the rules.


Breaking the rules doesn't remove a contract, specifically, their in game rules have absolutely no hold on a sale contract between myself and CCP games.

EULA ans TOS aren't "in game rules"

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#10 - 2013-04-18 16:38:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Inxentas Ultramar
If this was not allowed, everybody that put a colored font in the UI would be breaking the rules. I see a lot of these color-coded UI elements and haven't heard anyone getting banned over them. You'd be wise to make sure, and I'm sorry I can't deny or confirm this for you 100%, but I'm fairly sure this is allowed. There's no programmatical reason to put data in XML other then to make it readable for the human eye while still having a clear, nested structure. The game has buttons to import / export these settings, if a manual modification on them is not allowed then why in the seven hells would CCP use an XML format instead of (much smaller) binary data?
Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
#11 - 2013-04-18 16:46:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Miilla
Inxentas Ultramar wrote:
If this was not allowed, everybody that put a colored font in the UI would be breaking the rules. I see a lot of these color-coded UI elements and haven't heard anyone getting banned over them. You'd be wise to make sure, and I'm sorry I can't deny or confirm this for you 100%, but I'm fairly sure this is allowed. There's no programmatical reason to put data in XML other then to make it readable for the human eye while still having a clear, nested structure. The game has buttons to import / export these settings, if a manual modification on them is not allowed then why in the seven hells would CCP use an XML format instead of (much smaller) binary data?


Because they can then use standard XML parsers duh instead of a custom binary one, and it is self validating
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2013-04-18 17:02:14 UTC
Akturous wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
of course you won't get a refund.

they hardly stole it if you broke the rules.


Breaking the rules doesn't remove a contract, specifically, their in game rules have absolutely no hold on a sale contract between myself and CCP games.



The contract says you agree to the EULA. You break the EULA, it is you that broke the contract, not CCP. Once the contract is broken by you for violating the EULA, CCP is free of all obligations of the contract, such as a refund or allowing you to access there services.
Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
#13 - 2013-04-18 17:25:35 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Akturous wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
of course you won't get a refund.

they hardly stole it if you broke the rules.


Breaking the rules doesn't remove a contract, specifically, their in game rules have absolutely no hold on a sale contract between myself and CCP games.



The contract says you agree to the EULA. You break the EULA, it is you that broke the contract, not CCP. Once the contract is broken by you for violating the EULA, CCP is free of all obligations of the contract, such as a refund or allowing you to access there services.



Click throughs are not binding contracts and there is such a thing legally as severence and a contract cannot be modified witout both parties agreeing again and again click throughts are not binding contracts.

Pay by isk, not monies.
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#14 - 2013-04-18 19:13:02 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
of course you won't get a refund.

they hardly stole it if you broke the rules.


Dave Stark.

Hes the man this forum needs, not the man this forum deserves.

Big smile

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Akturous
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2013-04-19 01:51:40 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Akturous wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
of course you won't get a refund.

they hardly stole it if you broke the rules.


Breaking the rules doesn't remove a contract, specifically, their in game rules have absolutely no hold on a sale contract between myself and CCP games.



The contract says you agree to the EULA. You break the EULA, it is you that broke the contract, not CCP. Once the contract is broken by you for violating the EULA, CCP is free of all obligations of the contract, such as a refund or allowing you to access there services.




EULA only appears after paying for an account, client download and startup, it is specifically only related to in game rules, whether CCP likes it or not.

The actual contract of sale happens at the time of sale, when they issue a transaction on my card, not when I scroll through a click through on the game intro. This was made clear in an Australian court ruling about 2 years ago in relation to game ownership.

Vote Item Heck One for CSM8
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#16 - 2013-04-19 02:05:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
Akturous wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
of course you won't get a refund.

they hardly stole it if you broke the rules.


Breaking the rules doesn't remove a contract, specifically, their in game rules have absolutely no hold on a sale contract between myself and CCP games.


I'm sure if you had friends with a business lawyer or some law knowledge you could force CCP into small claims court.

Chances are they won't be bothered to pay their lawyer several times the cost of refunding you your $160 some bucks.

Though, they might fight you on the precident it might set.

In that case, if you have deep pockets and a chip on your shoulder you could pay a lawyer several thousand dollars to get your $160 back.

Of course you can be smug with the knowledge you cost CCP just about as much to fight you.

(Unless the judge determines your case to be without warrant and awards trial costs to CCP)

I'm strictly speaking about USA small claims courts where citizens can file disputes of claims of several hundred dollars (not thousands of dollars) and most of the time this is done by individuals and not lawyers (though if you want to blow someone out of the water you can buy a lawyer).

Foreign courts may not have such small claims courts, but I heard Portugal really favored small parties when it comes to fighting big companies.

I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#17 - 2013-04-19 05:48:30 UTC
Professional lawyers aren't permitted in small claims court, iirc.
Lady Areola Fappington
#18 - 2013-04-19 06:01:07 UTC
Chris Winter wrote:
Professional lawyers aren't permitted in small claims court, iirc.


They aren't allowed in court, but nothing stops you from hiring counsel to tell you exactly what to say/how to file the paperwork.

Also, if you're a US customer, you're filing on an overseas company if you try to drag CCP to court.

At best you may get a court paper saying CCP owes you some money. I've got RL landlord type friends with those same orders, and can't collect against people who live in the same county.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#19 - 2013-04-19 06:04:17 UTC
Akturous wrote:
EULA only appears after paying for an account, client download and startup, it is specifically only related to in game rules, whether CCP likes it or not.
…yeah, no. Let's see what it actually says on the page where you start the purchase. Oh, what's that at the bottom?

“By clicking Next, I certify that I have read and agree to the EVE Online Privacy Policy and Terms of Service, and to receive account-related communications from CCP electronically.”

This is before we have even gotten to the part where we give them any money. So what does the ToS you just agreed to say?

“As an Eve Online subscriber, you must observe and abide by the rules of conduct and policies outlined below, as well as the End User License Agreement. Failure to comply with these regulations can result in the immediate termination of your account and you will forfeit all unused access time to the game. No refunds will be given.”

So the EULA appears while setting up an account, long before client download and startup, and it most definitely relies to both in-game and out-of-game rules concerning your rights, obligations, and liabilities in relation to CCP.

Quote:
The actual contract of sale happens at the time of sale, when they issue a transaction on my card
…which means the contract includes the ToS and the EULA since you have already read and agreed to those as part of the purchase. You also scroll through it when starting up the client, but that is not the first time you see it or the first time you agree to it.
dark heartt
#20 - 2013-04-19 06:08:19 UTC  |  Edited by: dark heartt
Akturous wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
of course you won't get a refund.

they hardly stole it if you broke the rules.


Breaking the rules doesn't remove a contract, specifically, their in game rules have absolutely no hold on a sale contract between myself and CCP games.


The EULA would disagree with you there, and you accepted it when you made the choice to purchase and start playing Eve.

Eve's EULA wrote:
(2) Termination of EULA

CCP may terminate the EULA, close all your Accounts, and cancel all rights granted to you under the EULA if: (i) you fail to pay the fees when due; (ii) CCP is unable to verify or authenticate any information you provide; (iii) you or anyone using any of your Accounts materially breaches the EULA, makes any unauthorized use of the System or Software, or infringes the rights of CCP or any third party; or (iv) CCP becomes aware of game play, chat or player activity under your Account that is, in CCP's discretion, inappropriate, offensive, or in violation of the Rules of Conduct. Such termination shall be effective upon notice transmitted via electronic mail, or any other means reasonably calculated to reach you.

CCP reserves the right to terminate any and all other Accounts that share the name, phone number, e-mail address, internet protocol address or credit card number with the closed Account. Termination by CCP under this section shall be without prejudice to or waiver of any and all of CCP's other rights or remedies, all of which are expressly reserved, survive termination, and are cumulative. You will not be entitled to receive a refund of fees for a termination pursuant to this section.


The in game rules are all part and parcel of the sale as listed above by Tippia. You have no entitlement to a refund in the matter of temporary or permanent bans as you violated CCP's rules for using the service.

http://tetrisisunrealistic.blogspot.com.au/
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