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Dev Blog: Client modification, the EULA and you

First post First post
Author
Octoven
Noir Holdings
#701 - 2013-04-21 03:50:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Octoven
Bloody Wench wrote:
Octoven wrote:
Bloody Wench wrote:
Octoven wrote:


Which is why it was a mistake to get rid of the ban warning in favor of a 2 step approach. You get a 30 ban for doing something that until CCP decided was illegal was perfectly ok with them. You just never know, having the warning at least gives the player the ability to say ok....since you just recently decided to enforce that, then I can change my play style without having to lose 30 days.



No. The bans were for client injection. Modifying python code inside the client. If you don't know exactly what went on then you don't have to worry about it.


I know exactly what went on, but what you fail to realize is that when CCP does a mass ban like this, yes 90-99% of players have cheated and should be banned, but there is also that 1% chance the detection was in error and as a result the player who was banned for doing something that they havent done is both insulting to that person and an embarrassment on the company for not having looked into it instead of leaping before looking.

I dont care how good a software you claim to have regarding modification of the client, you WILL inadvertently ban someone who doesnt deserve it. If you happen to be in a small corp or running a tower by yourself in a wh then you are ****** because even if they lift the ban and apologize you will probably lose the thing and everything in it....of course it wont be replaced either.



Look man, you don't understand what happened at all. Their detection 'software' was simply



if hasattr(Object, 'Name') // this is a standard python code so don't get your knickers in a twist.
does not match the original
then
tell me.

It's asking does object with name (Name) have a value of abc123? To which the value abc123 will never change on its own.
Otherwise go about your business.

Yes I'm being vague because they don't like it when I post actual code.


There's absolutely ZERO chance this would have had false positives.



NOTHING in software is absolute or programming for that matter, look at CCP's little blunder with Arkonor when the game was first introduced spelling it as Arkanor instead....one ******* letter off was all it took. The point is mistakes CAN happen and thus at some point in time they WILL happen.
Entity
X-Factor Industries
Synthetic Existence
#702 - 2013-04-21 04:09:52 UTC
Bloody Wench wrote:
stuff


An analogy probably helps to make the less programming savvy understand.

Here's the general method used to detect modified clients:

Fact: CCP only issues black executive cars.
Observation: You are driving a CCP car that is acid green, has spinners, stickers of manufacturers of stuff not even present in the car, fake carbon hood, pink neon UFO lighting, and a stupid huge spoiler, mounted backwards on the supports because you're a lame ricer.
Conclusion: There is a reasonable chance your car might be modified. No wait, I'm just kidding. Your car is modified, durrr.
Action: Ban, lol.


(to be fair, if CCP only checked the seats, you'd probably still be in the clear if you didn't change those! ;-)

╦......║...╔╗.║.║.╔╗.╦║.╔╗╔╦╗╔╗

║.╔╗╔╗╔╣.╔╗╠..╠ ╠╗╠╝.║╠ ╠╝║║║╚╗

╩═╚╝║.╚╝.╚╝║..╚╝║║╚╝.╩╚╝╚╝║.║╚╝

Got Item?

Stray Bullets
Perkone
Caldari State
#703 - 2013-04-21 09:41:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Stray Bullets
Thank you CCP Stillman for the clarification on a long needed point of discussion.

While before I had issues with the "policy" of not defining what's allowed or not, you said what I was hoping someone at CCP said.
Quote:

"We only care about the instances where people are messing with our process for the purposes of cheating, and running multiple clients at the same time is not in violation of our EULA in and of itself unless it involves trial accounts."


With that being said, my personal stance is that I'm doing nothing wrong with my current use of EVEMon (checking up skills, setting up skill plans and planning remaps for said plans and so, I will continue to use EVEMon as I've been using so far. Yes, it has the market uploader enabled and will continue to do so as I'm not automating anything for myself and barely ever go on the markets.

Regarding ISBoxer, I had used it in the past and stopped using it when it became a bit unclear of whether it was allowed or not. Since my use of ISBoxer was similar to what someone here described, as in, the only features from it that I use (besides the keystroke and mouse broadcasts) is basically the easy setup for the screens and not automating anything, I will go back to using it.

I understand this is at my own discretion as both are against the EULA but as you stated, you're not looking for me, you're looking for people doing botting, RMT ... so if eventually you (CCP) change your mind about what's allowed and start dishing out bans for these two points, you basically lose a customer.

In no way would I ever re subscribe to "start over from scratch" as all of my 5 accounts, some 6 years old now, took a lot of time and effort to get to their current state.

So, thank you CCP Stillman for clearing that up for me Cool
Athena Maldoran
Doomheim
#704 - 2013-04-21 10:55:23 UTC
Say NO to all multiboxing software.
Kha'Vorn
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#705 - 2013-04-21 13:13:17 UTC
If anything, ISBoxer gives people a unfair advantage in EVE, more than cache scraping to benefit the playerbase. Why is ISBoxer allowable and this not?
Korvin
Shadow Kingdom
Best Alliance
#706 - 2013-04-21 14:44:26 UTC
I'm not sure I would tell anything new, but:
http://www.raphkoster.com/gaming/laws.shtml

Quote:
Macroing, botting, and automation:
No matter what you do, someone is going to automate the process of playing your world.

Corollary:
Looking at what parts of your game players tend to automate is a good way to determine which parts of the game are tedious and/or not fun.


On this note, I want to ask CCP what they think about the case with 2350 accounts instantly caught on autopilot mod, will they change the distinction between warp on autopilot and manually warping, or will they continue to enforce players to sit 40 min and press the same one button all the time.

Will CCP ever consider to analyze the most automated parts of EVE in a game design perspective?

Also...
Can't...
...stop...
...the...
...progress.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqE9zIp0Muk

Member of CSM 4&5 ... &8

Midnight Firestarter
Anger Management
#707 - 2013-04-21 16:30:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Midnight Firestarter
Quote:
If anything, ISBoxer gives people a unfair advantage in EVE, more than cache scraping to benefit the playerbase. Why is ISBoxer allowable and this not?


Quote:
Say NO to all multiboxing software.


Utter rubbish ....

Does someone having more than one account give them an advantage in Eve ...... yes

Could someone having a faster computer give them an advantage in Eve ...... yes

Could someone having a faster internet connection give them an advantage in Eve ...... yes

Does someone not working have an advantage in Eve ...... yes

I agree with CCP in removing peoples ability to bot, macro or inject 1000% but trying to level the playing field
is a waste of their effort and stupidity.

Do we limit Eve to one computer, 4 hours a week .......... again stupid.

I use synergy not because I bot but because I can't be arsed picking up a dropping the mouse and keyboard multiple times.

What software I run on my computer is up to me and as long as it doesn't interact with your client .. get stuffed CCP.

Can CCP ban me for using it .. I would love to see them try .... I have no issue filing a small claim for 10+ years
subscription for a total cost to me of £50 in a UK court and see them having to fly over from Iceland to defend or pay up.
Entity
X-Factor Industries
Synthetic Existence
#708 - 2013-04-21 16:58:35 UTC
Midnight Firestarter wrote:
Can CCP ban me for using it .. I would love to see them try .... I have no issue filing a small claim for 10+ years
subscription for a total cost to me of £50 in a UK court and see them having to fly over from Iceland to defend or pay up.


You seem to have missed the part where CCP can legally refuse service to you for any or no reason.

╦......║...╔╗.║.║.╔╗.╦║.╔╗╔╦╗╔╗

║.╔╗╔╗╔╣.╔╗╠..╠ ╠╗╠╝.║╠ ╠╝║║║╚╗

╩═╚╝║.╚╝.╚╝║..╚╝║║╚╝.╩╚╝╚╝║.║╚╝

Got Item?

Midnight Firestarter
Anger Management
#709 - 2013-04-21 17:00:04 UTC
Quote:
You seem to have missed the part where CCP can legally refuse service to you for any or no reason.


Not if that reason is illegally scanning my PC ...

And yes than can refuse their service ... but they still have to defend the Claim.
Wes Desto
Black Bag Operations
#710 - 2013-04-21 18:13:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Wes Desto
welp. one of my accounts got banned under the BS "eula" blanket ban that just happened. Evil

i logged in for literally 4 minutes to fuel a pos, warped to 0 at pos and BAM eula ban. and the petition system is so back logged I'll prolly never get my toon back. which is a shame. its 6 years old and 90 million sp's but that doesn't matter to ccp.

**** it. i pulled all the subs to all my accounts. I have better things to do than cater to CCP's god complex. You don't want my money? cool bro. I know of a half dozen games that just opened up for my disposable income
. Roll
Mila Chancel
Fungibility Inc.
Invisible Exchequer
#711 - 2013-04-21 18:47:54 UTC
Midnight Firestarter wrote:
Quote:
You seem to have missed the part where CCP can legally refuse service to you for any or no reason.


Not if that reason is illegally scanning my PC ...

And yes than can refuse their service ... but they still have to defend the Claim.


You are new to EULA and TOS on the internet aren't you?
Evora Chili
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#712 - 2013-04-21 19:29:50 UTC
Athena Maldoran wrote:
Say NO to all multiboxing software.

Well, I could say something like that then:
"I don't like how other people gain unfair advantage by using market data from eve-central etc that was illegaly extracted from the client."


But seriously? I don't give a f*** about what tools other people use, as long as they actually do the actions and not a bot.
Midnight Firestarter
Anger Management
#713 - 2013-04-21 20:51:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Midnight Firestarter
Quote:
You are new to EULA and TOS on the internet aren't you?


Your new to UK law and servers that are hosted in London .... click-wrap policies
don't hold up so well. Also anyone can file a small claim ... I may do just for the hell of it they are
acting so "we can do what we want"
Octoven
Noir Holdings
#714 - 2013-04-21 21:30:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Octoven
Mila Chancel wrote:
Midnight Firestarter wrote:
Quote:
You seem to have missed the part where CCP can legally refuse service to you for any or no reason.


Not if that reason is illegally scanning my PC ...

And yes than can refuse their service ... but they still have to defend the Claim.


You are new to EULA and TOS on the internet aren't you?


EULA and TOS is to protect the company from any undue legal recourse; however, they arent a free ticket from law. The EULA may be justified under Icelandic law, but may be illegal in another country and if they are offering service to say the UK, they can apply the EULA but they still must fall under jurisdictional law of that country in order to offer its services to that country. If they violate it, said country has the right to blacklist the game and deny them customers.

In short, CCP would not have to fork over any money, but they would lose a ton of subs due to it.


I would like to mention this has already happened in the UK with Apple. A person filed a small claims saying that Apple did not have the right to enforce a TOS on OSX software when it wasnt clearly displayed on the packaging before the customer purchased it. As per UK law, all TOS and EULAs must be presented on packaging before bought. In the end the guy made a killing off it and Apple no longer has stores in the UK.
David Magpul
#715 - 2013-04-21 21:33:54 UTC
Removing multiboxing sounds great. It makes people that are generally bad better an make it so they can make more isk then normal also meaning they circumvent even paying for subscription. Boo hoo if they pull their accts it's not like ccp is losing money anyway on them. As for everyone that was worried about getting banned for logging in to eve-central, it clearly says there not banning people not doing bad things so........

Ccp ignore the people that are incapable of reading but want you to read their drivel.
Sellit High
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#716 - 2013-04-21 22:45:16 UTC
Here's the lack of Apple stores.

http://www.apple.com/uk/retail/storelist/

Facts, who needs them.
Octoven
Noir Holdings
#717 - 2013-04-21 22:54:23 UTC
Sellit High wrote:
Here's the lack of Apple stores.

http://www.apple.com/uk/retail/storelist/

Facts, who needs them.


Misuse of wording, my bad of course apple has stores in the UK why? Because they chose to pay out a settlement instead of packing up their stores and leaving country. I imagine CCP might do the same if they were business savoy
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#718 - 2013-04-21 23:01:00 UTC
Sellit High wrote:
Here's the lack of Apple stores.

http://www.apple.com/uk/retail/storelist/

Facts, who needs them.

But he read it on the internet, it MUST be true. Big smile

The only thing more amusing that people that buy into urban myths are self proclaimed internet lawyers.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#719 - 2013-04-21 23:02:21 UTC
Midnight Firestarter wrote:
Quote:
You are new to EULA and TOS on the internet aren't you?


Your new to UK law and servers that are hosted in London .... click-wrap policies
don't hold up so well. Also anyone can file a small claim ... I may do just for the hell of it they are
acting so "we can do what we want"


Oh please, please do this... and be sure to let us know EXACTLY how it works out for you. Big smile

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Yim Sei
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#720 - 2013-04-22 09:25:17 UTC
Cant see the problem here.

Dont cheat or use bots and you have nothing to worry about.

Awesome to think that probably 99% of the tears on here are from people running bots though ;)

WP CCP , you cant ban them quick enough for me :D

Post with my main? This is my main - I just overtrain and overplay my alts.