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Is the EVE dev teams getting smaller?

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Kailen Thorn
I.N.V.A.S.I.O.N.
Apocalypse Now.
#21 - 2013-04-19 01:47:44 UTC
CCP karkur wrote:
I think the short answer is no. I don't have any numbers, but we do have a lot of people working very hard on EVE and doing a great job! Smile

Sura Sadiva wrote:
Afer Apocryphya CCP spreaded their resources over DUST and WOD.
It's not really fair to say that, because Apocrypha was a "all hands on deck" kind of project where everyone within CCP was brought in to work on it. And then the people who had been nice enough to help out with the expansions and drop what they were doing went back to work on their projects.


Thinking about their "Content Creation Teams"... From memory, there was a photo of 5 people in super best friends team.

And i don't know how many teams there are, but i guess between 3 - 5 teams.

15 - 25 people working on content creation, then bring in Testers, Social Media, Security, Programmers, artists, Fozzie + Rise.

CCP employs 600 people (Source: http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-04-18/multiplayer-game-eve-online-cultivates-a-most-devoted-following#p1) and a number of them will be with DUST project, however it doesn't seem that there is that large of a force behind the "patches"

Making an example of WoW. They release an expansion every year ish, which opens new content, levels, areas to explore etc etc.... While also maintaining patches which tweak, change and add new, smaller pieces of content (a new raid or something). These are patches and not expansions.

Also, my team (in uni) collectively worked upon a project, a Spaceship Shooter, over the last six months. This has been done alongside other final year modules... and would have had around 1 days worth of work, maybe 2 every now and then, a week. My team consisted of 8 people split between, art, scripting, programming, level and model design. The game had 1 level, yet had 3 ship types, with 8 different ship models (not to mention environmental assets). Potentially more than what is being delivered by you for us? (By no means am i saying we could do it better, just a comparison of work output i guess)

You have potentially triple our number, if not more, and you have these people working full time with professional industry experience....


Hire more Content Designers to lead the way (plus i need a job =P)
**Off to finish my Advanced 3D Module ¬.¬**
Zenos Ebeth
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2013-04-19 02:04:08 UTC
I think it's just ccp typical knee jerk reactions.

They made apocrypha , with lots of new contents , and people loved it , so they kept making content expansions with little bug fixes up until incarna where people got angry because of stuff , After that they made crucible with a lots of bug fixing and balancing but little new content , and people liked that , so now they are going to stick to that theme until they make something that the playerbase doesn't like and subsequently switch to the old formula/try something new.

Bad posts are not welcome on these forums.  -CCP Falcon
KuroVolt
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2013-04-19 02:34:30 UTC
Is this whole thread just a sick burn on CCP Guard?

Cause that is harsh.





Continue...

BoBwins Law: As a discussion/war between two large nullsec entities grows longer, the probability of one comparing the other to BoB aproaches near certainty.
dark heartt
#24 - 2013-04-19 02:36:06 UTC
Kailen Thorn wrote:

Making an example of WoW. They release an expansion every year ish, which opens new content, levels, areas to explore etc etc.... While also maintaining patches which tweak, change and add new, smaller pieces of content (a new raid or something). These are patches and not expansions.


The problem is that you cannot use WoW as an example compared to Eve. WoW requires the new content, because the content is scripted and provided for by the devs, whereas the vast majority (and to some arguably the best) of the content in Eve is made by players.

All CCP needs to provide is the sandbox (the tools required by the players to create content), occasionally some new content (new ships, industry methods, activities like faction warfare and incursions) and then keep the damn thing balanced. Then we as the players go and make all of the actual content with the tools provided.

http://tetrisisunrealistic.blogspot.com.au/
rswfire
#25 - 2013-04-19 02:48:43 UTC
dark heartt wrote:
Kailen Thorn wrote:

Making an example of WoW. They release an expansion every year ish, which opens new content, levels, areas to explore etc etc.... While also maintaining patches which tweak, change and add new, smaller pieces of content (a new raid or something). These are patches and not expansions.


The problem is that you cannot use WoW as an example compared to Eve. WoW requires the new content, because the content is scripted and provided for by the devs, whereas the vast majority (and to some arguably the best) of the content in Eve is made by players.

All CCP needs to provide is the sandbox (the tools required by the players to create content), occasionally some new content (new ships, industry methods, activities like faction warfare and incursions) and then keep the damn thing balanced. Then we as the players go and make all of the actual content with the tools provided.


I don't know. You're not wrong by any means. But I for one wouldn't mind some new content. I enjoy COSMOS for example, but what is there beyond that? It'd be really nice if they actually added new sets of epic arcs or celestial missions, because that's one of the things I personally get the most enjoyment out of. (I could of course hold a minority opinion, but sec missions get boring after a while.)

About Firesworn Nation .|. FB .|. G+ .|. Steam
Kailen Thorn
I.N.V.A.S.I.O.N.
Apocalypse Now.
#26 - 2013-04-19 03:07:40 UTC
dark heartt wrote:
Kailen Thorn wrote:

Making an example of WoW. They release an expansion every year ish, which opens new content, levels, areas to explore etc etc.... While also maintaining patches which tweak, change and add new, smaller pieces of content (a new raid or something). These are patches and not expansions.


The problem is that you cannot use WoW as an example compared to Eve. WoW requires the new content, because the content is scripted and provided for by the devs, whereas the vast majority (and to some arguably the best) of the content in Eve is made by players.

All CCP needs to provide is the sandbox (the tools required by the players to create content), occasionally some new content (new ships, industry methods, activities like faction warfare and incursions) and then keep the damn thing balanced. Then we as the players go and make all of the actual content with the tools provided.


Players make the content yes... but whats different if WoW were to have Full PvP servers, with players running around the world hunting eachother and groups killing groups? Players are providing the content, yet Blizzard add new areas to explore, new abilities, armour sets, classes, races. All of these additions are tools.

Each year, WoW gets a new island/land, new PvP arenas/battlegrounds, Raids. These are tools for players to create content around, guilds forming to take on new raids, players grouping to respond to PvP requirements. While this lasts only so long, where as eve doesn't have the restrictions, it should still have the progress from the Dev's in providing new content. I wasnt here with the apoc expansion came out, but the best expansions where when the drone regions were released, Wormhole space released etc etc... The same way WoW releases new content for the players.

The comparison is that WoW players expect something new and shiny each year. Us EvE players seem to be happy on the drip that feeds us our bi-decade milli-litre of morphine.
dark heartt
#27 - 2013-04-19 03:08:29 UTC  |  Edited by: dark heartt
Yeah believe me I understand that. I've recently been unable to play for the lengths of time that I had been and logging on to do one mission is all that I have had time for, so I realise just how bad the mission situation is at the moment. But at the same time it needs to be said about emergent gameplay being the focus of Eve to prevent it becoming a theme park MMO (extremely unlikely but a nightmare we all have about it).

Kailen Thorn wrote:
dark heartt wrote:
Kailen Thorn wrote:

Making an example of WoW. They release an expansion every year ish, which opens new content, levels, areas to explore etc etc.... While also maintaining patches which tweak, change and add new, smaller pieces of content (a new raid or something). These are patches and not expansions.


The problem is that you cannot use WoW as an example compared to Eve. WoW requires the new content, because the content is scripted and provided for by the devs, whereas the vast majority (and to some arguably the best) of the content in Eve is made by players.

All CCP needs to provide is the sandbox (the tools required by the players to create content), occasionally some new content (new ships, industry methods, activities like faction warfare and incursions) and then keep the damn thing balanced. Then we as the players go and make all of the actual content with the tools provided.


Players make the content yes... but whats different if WoW were to have Full PvP servers, with players running around the world hunting eachother and groups killing groups? Players are providing the content, yet Blizzard add new areas to explore, new abilities, armour sets, classes, races. All of these additions are tools.

Each year, WoW gets a new island/land, new PvP arenas/battlegrounds, Raids. These are tools for players to create content around, guilds forming to take on new raids, players grouping to respond to PvP requirements. While this lasts only so long, where as eve doesn't have the restrictions, it should still have the progress from the Dev's in providing new content. I wasnt here with the apoc expansion came out, but the best expansions where when the drone regions were released, Wormhole space released etc etc... The same way WoW releases new content for the players.

The comparison is that WoW players expect something new and shiny each year. Us EvE players seem to be happy on the drip that feeds us our bi-decade milli-litre of morphine.



That just speaks to the differences between the two player bases. We want player driven, WoW players want content driven. You still can't take the WoW model and apply it to Eve.

Edit: Also the thought of one expansion being better than another is totally subjective. I personally didn't find anything in Apoc that interested me at the time, but the ship balancing in Retribution was the best thing to happen since exhumers were added for me. What one person finds good content is totally different to another based on interests.

http://tetrisisunrealistic.blogspot.com.au/
Bill Lane
Strategic Insanity
FUBAR.
#28 - 2013-04-19 03:57:54 UTC
I just wish CCP would stop labeling a bunch of bug fixes and ship tweaks as an "expansion"

An "expansion" to me would infer that they were "expanding" on the Eve universe, bringing something new and fresh. Instead, we get a big patch that fixes a few bugs. I'm not saying I'm sure that's what this patch is going to be since we don't know all the dirty little secrets yet, but a patch is a patch CCP! Stop labeling it as some awesome thing. Wow, all the hype for my UI to work and the Drake to lose a missile slot.....jesus.

Sorry for the rant. Eve has gotten a little stale, and I'm frustrated at the last few expansions. It's nice to have the game work for sure, I just wish the expansions were.....for lack of a better word, better. And dark heartt is right, a "good" expansion is subjective, but for fudge sakes CCP, at least make it a true expansion.

Military Gamers gaming community

FUBAR's Website
Naomi Hale
#29 - 2013-04-19 07:16:50 UTC
CCP karkur wrote:
I think the short answer is no. I don't have any numbers, but we do have a lot of people working very hard on EVE and doing a great job! Smile

Sura Sadiva wrote:
Afer Apocryphya CCP spreaded their resources over DUST and WOD.
It's not really fair to say that, because Apocrypha was a "all hands on deck" kind of project where everyone within CCP was brought in to work on it. And then the people who had been nice enough to help out with the expansions and drop what they were doing went back to work on their projects.


First off, thanks for the response(s), really wasn't expecting a dev to reply. Secondly I feel I should apologise, after re-reading my op it feels a bit more confrontational than I originally intended, I was really looking for insight and not trying to place blame or cause disruption.

Thanks to all for answering my question.

I'm Naomi Hale and this is my favourite thread on the forums.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#30 - 2013-04-19 07:44:59 UTC
People still confuse WoW-style games with MMOs.

WoW has no depth, the only idea is to consume scripted raids and acquire new loot for the sake of acquiring new loot. This type of game needs new items and dungeons, because there is nothing else to do.

In EVE, scripted PVE content is nothing more than one option to make ISK so that you can focus on the game itself. It's a sideline and players are not interested in that, as they are after long-term satisfaction and challenges.

The latest expansions have all expanded the game itself. The "tweaks" done to T1 cruisers for example were in reality dozens of completely new ships, that have changed the way people play the game.

.
Octoven
Stellar Production
#31 - 2013-04-19 08:07:39 UTC
CCP karkur wrote:
I think the short answer is no. I don't have any numbers, but we do have a lot of people working very hard on EVE and doing a great job! Smile

Sura Sadiva wrote:
Afer Apocryphya CCP spreaded their resources over DUST and WOD.
It's not really fair to say that, because Apocrypha was a "all hands on deck" kind of project where everyone within CCP was brought in to work on it. And then the people who had been nice enough to help out with the expansions and drop what they were doing went back to work on their projects.


Given that there are at least 2 expansions each year I don't think its too much to ask that the same amount of attention that was given to Apoc should be given to at bare minimum one expansion a year. Right now resources are just spread all over the place. However, with CCP essentially redesigning the game with ship balances, POS mechanics, Sov Mechanics...I feel it is important to not give us a basket with only 4-5 eggs in it. We want a dozen or more.
John DaiSho
LowKey Ops
Snuffed Out
#32 - 2013-04-19 08:18:37 UTC  |  Edited by: John DaiSho
Octoven wrote:
CCP karkur wrote:
I think the short answer is no. I don't have any numbers, but we do have a lot of people working very hard on EVE and doing a great job! Smile

Sura Sadiva wrote:
Afer Apocryphya CCP spreaded their resources over DUST and WOD.
It's not really fair to say that, because Apocrypha was a "all hands on deck" kind of project where everyone within CCP was brought in to work on it. And then the people who had been nice enough to help out with the expansions and drop what they were doing went back to work on their projects.


Given that there are at least 2 expansions each year I don't think its too much to ask that the same amount of attention that was given to Apoc should be given to at bare minimum one expansion a year. Right now resources are just spread all over the place. However, with CCP essentially redesigning the game with ship balances, POS mechanics, Sov Mechanics...I feel it is important to not give us a basket with only 4-5 eggs in it. We want a dozen or more.


The biggest "egg" out there, sov nullsec, isn´t even used properly atm. So much space in nullsec is owned only to make their fingerprint on the influence map as big as possible, but they are not populated. Adding new space to that would not help with that a bit.
Compare that to FW, which got so much more lively in the last expansions. I would really like to see CCP work on nullsec and make people actually live there instead of just conquering it to show everyone else that they can.

It is kind of comparable to ship balancing, too. You cant just put new ships into the game without hurting already existing ships, unless you manage to find a niche for the new ships that isnt already filled properly. You cant just put in new areas into the game, without hurting already existing ones, unless you manage to get a whole new playstyle, and players of that type, into the game.

If they just added a better nullsec 2.0 the old nullsec would become totally deserted.
This is no problem in games like WoW, noone complains that noone goes into the old raids anymore, as long as they keep adding fresh new ones.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#33 - 2013-04-19 11:05:53 UTC
Roime wrote:
People still confuse WoW-style games with MMOs.

WoW has no depth, the only idea is to consume scripted raids and acquire new loot for the sake of acquiring new loot. This type of game needs new items and dungeons, because there is nothing else to do.




I think you hit the nail on the head right there.

WOW = Player consumption of content thought up by the devs.

EVE = Player creation of content empowered by the devs.

While WOW (or a similar game) can have some player-created content, such as the guilds and whatever goes along with that, there is little to no content that can be created that lasts, or at least lasts in the same way EVE does. Just look at the "Real Stories" webpage -- there are hundreds, if not thousands of stories that have been posted. Some are small time (I was living in a C1 by myself, until someone else showed up) ... and others are the EVE-legends (m0o, GHSC, BoB, Goons, etc.) that have been told and retold for years.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#34 - 2013-04-19 13:29:21 UTC
You see the Crimewatch changes? While they might not seem to have been huge, there was a great deal of work needed behind the scenes to get it working right, and straighten out the mess of code that had built up (This /always/ happens. pretty much regardless of methodology)

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Anyura
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#35 - 2013-04-19 17:59:50 UTC
The Dev team is not getting smaller. That will happen after the "Drink Me" potion I slipped into their beers takes effect.
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#36 - 2013-04-19 20:38:19 UTC
Quote:
Is the EVE dev teams getting smaller?


Are the EvE dev teams getting smaller?

Is the EvE dev team getting smaller?

P

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Azurae
Doomheim
#37 - 2013-04-19 20:50:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Azurae
Kailen Thorn wrote:
CCP karkur wrote:
I think the short answer is no. I don't have any numbers, but we do have a lot of people working very hard on EVE and doing a great job! Smile

Sura Sadiva wrote:
Afer Apocryphya CCP spreaded their resources over DUST and WOD.
It's not really fair to say that, because Apocrypha was a "all hands on deck" kind of project where everyone within CCP was brought in to work on it. And then the people who had been nice enough to help out with the expansions and drop what they were doing went back to work on their projects.


Thinking about their "Content Creation Teams"... From memory, there was a photo of 5 people in super best friends team.

And i don't know how many teams there are, but i guess between 3 - 5 teams.

15 - 25 people working on content creation, then bring in Testers, Social Media, Security, Programmers, artists, Fozzie + Rise.

CCP employs 600 people (Source: http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-04-18/multiplayer-game-eve-online-cultivates-a-most-devoted-following#p1) and a number of them will be with DUST project, however it doesn't seem that there is that large of a force behind the "patches"

Making an example of WoW. They release an expansion every year ish, which opens new content, levels, areas to explore etc etc.... While also maintaining patches which tweak, change and add new, smaller pieces of content (a new raid or something). These are patches and not expansions.

Also, my team (in uni) collectively worked upon a project, a Spaceship Shooter, over the last six months. This has been done alongside other final year modules... and would have had around 1 days worth of work, maybe 2 every now and then, a week. My team consisted of 8 people split between, art, scripting, programming, level and model design. The game had 1 level, yet had 3 ship types, with 8 different ship models (not to mention environmental assets). Potentially more than what is being delivered by you for us? (By no means am i saying we could do it better, just a comparison of work output i guess)

You have potentially triple our number, if not more, and you have these people working full time with professional industry experience....


Hire more Content Designers to lead the way (plus i need a job =P)
**Off to finish my Advanced 3D Module ¬.¬**


creating some cheap spaceship shooter, which probably is 2d is definately more than ccp is delivering for us. why dont you go ahead and just create a product thats similar to eve but a lot better. with your workoutput whats a realistic estimate for release? i guess about a year or so, right? fresh out of uni (well not even out of it yet but still) and no fking idea how anything works, in your case definately not just a cliché

gtfo re**rd
or better yet. go back to wow
Solhild
Doomheim
#38 - 2013-04-19 21:30:52 UTC
I don't care if it is a 'real' expansion or simply an improvement of the UI/Mechanics. Either way, it gives me something new to play with and maintain a sub.

I want ships to be continually balanced so I'm encouraged to try new things in the game.

I enjoy PVP when it happens but probably enjoy spending twenty times more effort improving my ships and carebaring etc. It's a game and if I can't casually enjoy it then I wouldn't bother subscribing.

I want new shiny spaceships to replace out dated designs, this is a commercial product and it needs to stand up to the other shiny things in my life.

The EVE universe is what counts to me. I need to care about it. Dev teams need to be structured in a way that means that they can work and get a decent pension etc. This will happen if they can grow and maintain individuals who subscribe/pay to play.

Yes Dust and EVE need to be integrated and by that I mean in the EVE client, seamless.
Yes EVE should extend to casual carebear avatar gameplay as well as intense PVP avatar gameplay.
Yes EVE should be a universe, Sci-Fi simulator and dev teams need to be working through all aspects of this.

I recognise that there's a secure(ish) cashcow PVP game now but I accept that CCP will be working on the future vision of EVE as well as the transition toward this now. Much of this work will not be visible in the currently announced patch or in the dev teams that we're aware of. Good luck CCP, looking forward to fanfest to learn more Cool.
CCP Guard
C C P
C C P Alliance
#39 - 2013-04-19 21:34:55 UTC
KuroVolt wrote:
Is this whole thread just a sick burn on CCP Guard?

Cause that is harsh.





Continue...


Came in here to make this joke myself. Left with faith in my people.

CCP Guard | EVE Community Developer | @CCP_Guard
Zyress
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#40 - 2013-04-19 21:56:20 UTC
Kailen Thorn wrote:
dark heartt wrote:
Kailen Thorn wrote:

Making an example of WoW. They release an expansion every year ish, which opens new content, levels, areas to explore etc etc.... While also maintaining patches which tweak, change and add new, smaller pieces of content (a new raid or something). These are patches and not expansions.


The problem is that you cannot use WoW as an example compared to Eve. WoW requires the new content, because the content is scripted and provided for by the devs, whereas the vast majority (and to some arguably the best) of the content in Eve is made by players.

All CCP needs to provide is the sandbox (the tools required by the players to create content), occasionally some new content (new ships, industry methods, activities like faction warfare and incursions) and then keep the damn thing balanced. Then we as the players go and make all of the actual content with the tools provided.


Players make the content yes... but whats different if WoW were to have Full PvP servers, with players running around the world hunting eachother and groups killing groups? Players are providing the content, yet Blizzard add new areas to explore, new abilities, armour sets, classes, races. All of these additions are tools.

Each year, WoW gets a new island/land, new PvP arenas/battlegrounds, Raids. These are tools for players to create content around, guilds forming to take on new raids, players grouping to respond to PvP requirements. While this lasts only so long, where as eve doesn't have the restrictions, it should still have the progress from the Dev's in providing new content. I wasnt here with the apoc expansion came out, but the best expansions where when the drone regions were released, Wormhole space released etc etc... The same way WoW releases new content for the players.

The comparison is that WoW players expect something new and shiny each year. Us EvE players seem to be happy on the drip that feeds us our bi-decade milli-litre of morphine.


Yes WOW has pvp and new content but new content is for the most part pve content. I guess you could call new battlegrounds new pvp content but arena or battleground combat has been rejected by the eve player base on many occasions. There is simply not much pve content in Eve, I can only think of Epic Arc missions, a few new agent missions, and Incursions as pve content added by expansions. Eve kind of discourages pve in favor of pvp, thats sort of the game flavor. There are no levels, no end game, let me know if you ever run out of skills to train, its really not much like WoW at all.