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[Odyssey] Cruise Missiles

First post First post
Author
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#101 - 2013-04-16 16:22:01 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
All improved now, but yes we'll have to see if the increased speed allows a significant amount of damage to slip past a firewall now.

Even if they do, I'd consider this more like an exploit, rather than intended operation.
While rails are inherently immune to such things and hit instantly. So what's the reason?

Maybe this is the way should be - cruise missile will only be usable in PVE. There are weapons that are useless in PVE - blasters - so that would be a kind of symmetry. If that fair enough?
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#102 - 2013-04-16 16:22:33 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
So, as a few of you have mentioned, damage application is one of the biggest obstacles for missiles. I completely agree, but I don't want to solve this problem through Cruise Missiles as a system. I have other ideas for dealing with it, unfortunately they will likely not make it in for Odyssey.



How about decreasing the effect of size and increasing the effect of speed? Or reverse?

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#103 - 2013-04-16 16:26:07 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
All improved now, but yes we'll have to see if the increased speed allows a significant amount of damage to slip past a firewall now.

Even if they do, I'd consider this more like an exploit, rather than intended operation.
While rails are inherently immune to such things and hit instantly. So what's the reason?

Maybe this is the way should be - cruise missile will only be usable in PVE. There are weapons that are useless in PVE - blasters - so that would be a kind of symmetry. If that fair enough?

Why would Cruise missiles being fast enough to slip past a firewall (if the timing happens to be right) be any more of an exploit that using Smart Bombs to screen an entire fleet? Smile

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Berluth Luthian
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#104 - 2013-04-16 16:28:18 UTC
What if target painters scaled their effects from engine power? Basically employing the same damage increase that missiles get against MWDs, but somehow on all speed modules or systems.
Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
#105 - 2013-04-16 16:32:12 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

Please keep in mind this change is not comprehensive. Following Odyssey, we hope to do more work to improve the missile systems in EVE by potentially adding new modules and/or interactions.

Look forward to hearing your feedback, as always
Rise


Could you do this with making caldari more power as they already are. Most flown t3 is tengu everyone want tengu. Everyone flown drake. Soon its everyone flown raven. I am seriously worried that my eve experience after odyssye is going to deep garbage. You are making too many hard changes for one update. I would personally tell my friends to wait for over this expansion because you will be dealing with lot of balancing issues after this update. There are too many changes to the old working eve that I enjoy.

Yes please buff the faction that already is one of the most viable source of money. Highsec, lowsec.. You can make their ships also invulnerable and don't forget scramble immunity.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#106 - 2013-04-16 16:34:44 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
All improved now, but yes we'll have to see if the increased speed allows a significant amount of damage to slip past a firewall now.

Even if they do, I'd consider this more like an exploit, rather than intended operation.
While rails are inherently immune to such things and hit instantly. So what's the reason?

Maybe this is the way should be - cruise missile will only be usable in PVE. There are weapons that are useless in PVE - blasters - so that would be a kind of symmetry. If that fair enough?


There is WAY more to PVE than Level 4 missions and blasters are far from useless for PVE. Likewise, while these missiles will be most likely used for PVE activity, they are finally not totally laughable for PVP.

Capless weapons system with decent damage... Isn't the Geddon getting missile slots? Not to mention the Typhoon, Raven, Navy Scorpion, and Rattlesnake.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Rene Winter
Urkrathos Corp
#107 - 2013-04-16 16:35:08 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
So, as a few of you have mentioned, damage application is one of the biggest obstacles for missiles. I completely agree, but I don't want to solve this problem through Cruise Missiles as a system. I have other ideas for dealing with it, unfortunately they will likely not make it in for Odyssey.

Why dont you just make target painters viable, instead of "other ideas" ?


This change has the subtle impact of doing just what you are asking. With a significant damage increase, the explosion radius increase mitigates that for smaller targets. For targets that would have been larger that the new sig radius already it's a straight dmg increase. For targets smaller than your explosion radius your damage should remain close to what it was, BUT if you paint their signature radius up the target painter gets more "room to work". So with appropriate target painting you should be able to realize a good portion of the DPS increase. I know this does not fix everything about target painters, but it does enhance their role a bit.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#108 - 2013-04-16 16:36:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Theia Matova wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:

Please keep in mind this change is not comprehensive. Following Odyssey, we hope to do more work to improve the missile systems in EVE by potentially adding new modules and/or interactions.

Look forward to hearing your feedback, as always
Rise


Could you do this with making caldari more power as they already are. Most flown t3 is tengu everyone want tengu. Everyone flown drake. Soon its everyone flown raven. I am seriously worried that my eve experience after odyssye is going to deep garbage. You are making too many hard changes for one update. I would personally tell my friends to wait for over this expansion because you will be dealing with lot of balancing issues after this update. There are too many changes to the old working eve that I enjoy.

Yes please buff the faction that already is one of the most viable source of money. Highsec, lowsec.. You can make their ships also invulnerable and don't forget scramble immunity.

PVE applications of a ship or weapons system is a lot easier to deal with than PVP applications. If nothing else they could up the amount of defenders your typical NPC spits out if necessary, or fiddle with their sig radius.

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Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#109 - 2013-04-16 16:39:29 UTC
Theia Matova wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:

Please keep in mind this change is not comprehensive. Following Odyssey, we hope to do more work to improve the missile systems in EVE by potentially adding new modules and/or interactions.

Look forward to hearing your feedback, as always
Rise


Could you do this with making caldari more power as they already are. Most flown t3 is tengu everyone want tengu. Everyone flown drake. Soon its everyone flown raven. I am seriously worried that my eve experience after odyssye is going to deep garbage. You are making too many hard changes for one update. I would personally tell my friends to wait for over this expansion because you will be dealing with lot of balancing issues after this update. There are too many changes to the old working eve that I enjoy.

Yes please buff the faction that already is one of the most viable source of money. Highsec, lowsec.. You can make their ships also invulnerable and don't forget scramble immunity.


The most flown T3 is the Loki, followed by Proteus > Legion > Tengu.

The most flown BC is the Naga, the most flown combat BC is the Cane.

Wat
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#110 - 2013-04-16 16:40:51 UTC
mynnna wrote:
CCP Rise: Any comments at least on whether you have Torpedo changes coming too? Or is this Cruise Missiles only?


CCP Rise : also what are you planning to fix citadel torpedoes and citadel cruise missiles?

Unforgiven Storm for CSM 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. (If I don't get in in the next 5 years I will quit trying) :-)

TZeer
BURN EDEN
No Therapy
#111 - 2013-04-16 16:42:05 UTC
Good changes.....


But completely worthless when it comes to long range PVP.


1: Any ship on grid can be scanned down in 5 sec.
2: Caldari in general is the slowest locking race in EVE.
3: Missiles will take over 10 sec to reach target.


Combine that and you have a very cool concept on paper, until you take probes into account. And you realize that you are scanned, pointed and going down in a ball of fire before your missiles have even started doing any damage.



For this to actually be worth anything, CCP need to change the scanning mechanic.

And no, increasing" warp to" range on grid to 250km does not fix it. As anyone with half a brain will just be loitering just outside grid and wait for stupid people coming in at range.


TL:DR

Cool on paper, worthless in reality, until CCP fix the 5 sec scantime to get warp ins.
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#112 - 2013-04-16 16:42:34 UTC
Seems like my worries came true and CCP went the lazy route with large missile changes...
Buff damage and speed to them so everyone is happy but in turn make them even more hard to apply damage.

Sorry but i was hoping for some changes that would make them more different from other weapon systems, but seems like the gap is instead closing even more with soon instant flying missiles using TE's and affected by TD's?
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#113 - 2013-04-16 16:46:14 UTC
TZeer wrote:
Good changes.....


But completely worthless when it comes to long range PVP.


1: Any ship on grid can be scanned down in 5 sec.
2: Caldari in general is the slowest locking race in EVE.
3: Missiles will take over 10 sec to reach target.


Combine that and you have a very cool concept on paper, until you take probes into account. And you realize that you are scanned, pointed and going down in a ball of fire before your missiles have even started doing any damage.



For this to actually be worth anything, CCP need to change the scanning mechanic.

And no, increasing" warp to" range on grid to 250km does not fix it. As anyone with half a brain will just be loitering just outside grid and wait for stupid people coming in at range.


TL:DR

Cool on paper, worthless in reality, until CCP fix the 5 sec scantime to get warp ins.

I tend to agree with this (although Cruise equiped ships will be a lot better able to defend themselves at close range than they are currently). Since scanning is being redone we'll have to see if this long standing issue is addressed.

I'm tired of sniping (gun or missile) not being viable in any kind of large engagement anymore due to unrealistically fast probe use.

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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#114 - 2013-04-16 16:47:31 UTC
Johnson Oramara wrote:
Seems like my worries came true and CCP went the lazy route with large missile changes...
Buff damage and speed to them so everyone is happy but in turn make them even more hard to apply damage.

Sorry but i was hoping for some changes that would make them more different from other weapon systems, but seems like the gap is instead closing even more with soon instant flying missiles using TE's and affected by TD's?

A 14 second flight time isn't really "instant".

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Callduron
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#115 - 2013-04-16 16:48:23 UTC
Sounds great. Keep doing stuff like this and you'll catch CCP Fozzie in likes.

+1

I write http://stabbedup.blogspot.co.uk/

I post on reddit as /u/callduron.

Destoya
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#116 - 2013-04-16 16:48:47 UTC
Seranova Farreach wrote:


iv watched the AT and past 3 years iv not seen any turtle tanking golems.


Sorry for not making myself clear: PL didn't come up with the Golem team supported by a Tengu logistics until the New Eden Open, where we were not able to field the setup due to :mistakes: that resulted in an early elimination. It, however, performed very well in our own testing and was nearly unbeatable.

More recently, the SCL was dominated by turtle tanking teams, with the Golem setup being the best of these. There was some variation in ship types (namely Sin, Vargur, Ishtar/vexor), but only really when the golem was banned.

Granted, these were not full-fledged alliance tournaments, but the same metagame is reflected in the smaller tournaments.
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#117 - 2013-04-16 16:52:17 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Johnson Oramara wrote:
Seems like my worries came true and CCP went the lazy route with large missile changes...
Buff damage and speed to them so everyone is happy but in turn make them even more hard to apply damage.

Sorry but i was hoping for some changes that would make them more different from other weapon systems, but seems like the gap is instead closing even more with soon instant flying missiles using TE's and affected by TD's?

A 14 second flight time isn't really "instant".

I wasn't talking about after these changes but where we are heading with this kind of changes. These changes still won't fix the pvp problems with them which results at some point with even more speed added and more and more until they are almost instant.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#118 - 2013-04-16 17:02:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Johnson Oramara wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Johnson Oramara wrote:
Seems like my worries came true and CCP went the lazy route with large missile changes...
Buff damage and speed to them so everyone is happy but in turn make them even more hard to apply damage.

Sorry but i was hoping for some changes that would make them more different from other weapon systems, but seems like the gap is instead closing even more with soon instant flying missiles using TE's and affected by TD's?

A 14 second flight time isn't really "instant".

I wasn't talking about after these changes but where we are heading with this kind of changes. These changes still won't fix the pvp problems with them which results at some point with even more speed added and more and more until they are almost instant.

Of course, anything is possible. I'm just saying you are making a lot of assumptions.

BS missile systems have needed some love for a very, very long time. If some of the traditional drawbacks are mitigated I'm really not to worried that CCP will find a creative way to provide necessary drawbacks.

Time will tell.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Invictor
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#119 - 2013-04-16 17:03:43 UTC
Terrible change. Can't hit anything with cruise missiles before and now it's even harder.

ffs
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Einheit X-6
#120 - 2013-04-16 17:05:11 UTC
these changes with the new typhoon... cruise nano phoon anyone?
the new bonus of the phoon sure helps with the dmg application.
maybe not as a main doctrine but a complementary wing?