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[Odyssey] Cruise Missiles

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Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#661 - 2013-05-14 11:02:07 UTC
Pohbis wrote:
With the increase to explosion radius, and no increase to explosion velocity, this change might as well not happen. At least when talking PvP.

Mission runners will be happy tho Lol


When I looked into the interaction of the numbers, I found that future cruise will do a minimum of 21% more applied damage to all targets for most sensible combinations of sig and speed. It did seem to break down to a minimum of 19.6% in some odd combinations of speed and sig, but basically you're looking at a minimum of 20% more damage from cruise in all situations.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#662 - 2013-05-14 11:05:23 UTC
Cruisers are now again great for the old Burn Eden tactics of tackle with cheap firgates at gates and obliterate from 100+ km with cruise ravens, with enough distance to gtfo if somethign dangerous comes by.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#663 - 2013-05-14 11:31:37 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:

tribal people strap rocket to rock.


...and thus explosive ammo was born
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#664 - 2013-05-14 11:36:29 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Pohbis wrote:
With the increase to explosion radius, and no increase to explosion velocity, this change might as well not happen. At least when talking PvP.

Mission runners will be happy tho Lol


When I looked into the interaction of the numbers, I found that future cruise will do a minimum of 21% more applied damage to all targets for most sensible combinations of sig and speed. It did seem to break down to a minimum of 19.6% in some odd combinations of speed and sig, but basically you're looking at a minimum of 20% more damage from cruise in all situations.


THANK YOU

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Itis Zhellin
#665 - 2013-05-14 11:55:22 UTC
I love Vic. He was my hero in the Retribution cinematics. He was such a though guy that he managed to bring down a couple of evil Ventures even without using any drone on his awesome Rattlesnake. So I though that I try to replicate his heroic action on SiSi and asked few friends to RP an evil miner in a Venture and also a gang of bounty hunters in some small/fast ships. I gave my word that I will use only the caldari side on my Rattlesnake, no drone will leave the bay, only cruise missiles.

So, I undock and warp to one of the nearby belts where I found this dude sitting in his Venture about 80 km distance from me, I put on my disco glases, lock, point and release my awesome salvo of 4 cruise missiles, exactly like Vic did in the cinematic. The evil Venture turn on the engines and try to escape speeding with over 3K away from me. Eventually my awesome missiles catch him up and... and... barely scratch the Venture, 4 cruise missile did only 10% damage on his shield. The next salvo was a miss as the evil Venture was already over 300 km away from me. Next, 2 Corax and a Nemesis show up and the finale was short but epic, exactly like in the cinematic. No destroyer or bomber was hurt or even scratched during the encounter.. not to mention the venture.

So here I am politely asking a CCP dev to be so kind and link me the fit that Vic used in the Retribution cinematic where a single missile poped the evil Venture. Because apparently a salvo of 4 cruise missile are not enough to pop a Venture. Or maybe I should use short range torpedoes and a scout that will help me to land right on top of the evil Venture. Or maybe I just should use a Titan and a gank fleet next time, so I make sure the Venture will have no escape.

Also tested the missiles in a random npc combat site (no drones used), took me about 10 minutes to bring down a cruiser, no chance to do anything else on a BS than just to ruin his cammo paint. Is the cruise missiles really getting buffed or I'm doing something wrong? Or maybe the Rattlesnake only purpose is to be used in movies, because the caldari side is completely worthless, luck with the gallente side and the really powerful drones. But if I wanna use a drone boat, then I use a proper one.
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#666 - 2013-05-14 13:55:52 UTC
Itis Zhellin wrote:
I love Vic. He was my hero in the Retribution cinematics. He was such a though guy that he managed to bring down a couple of evil Ventures even without using any drone on his awesome Rattlesnake. So I though that I try to replicate his heroic action on SiSi and asked few friends to RP an evil miner in a Venture and also a gang of bounty hunters in some small/fast ships. I gave my word that I will use only the caldari side on my Rattlesnake, no drone will leave the bay, only cruise missiles.


pssst, he used a Widow. Blink

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Itis Zhellin
#667 - 2013-05-14 14:29:48 UTC
Debora Tsung wrote:
Itis Zhellin wrote:
I love Vic. He was my hero in the Retribution cinematics. He was such a though guy that he managed to bring down a couple of evil Ventures even without using any drone on his awesome Rattlesnake. So I though that I try to replicate his heroic action on SiSi and asked few friends to RP an evil miner in a Venture and also a gang of bounty hunters in some small/fast ships. I gave my word that I will use only the caldari side on my Rattlesnake, no drone will leave the bay, only cruise missiles.


pssst, he used a Widow. Blink

/facepalm

Your right and I'm blind like a frackin bat.... he used a black op to hunt down those evil frigates. I need to make a poster with Vic, he is a really fearsome and clever individual, I never imagined that it requires to use a black op against those evil Ventures, thought that a simple Rattlesnake will do it. But just to be sure, I will skill up and next time I will use a Titan. Then I will have my revenge!!

Fact is that cruise missiles are not doing to good at all atm, pve or pvp.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#668 - 2013-05-14 14:45:37 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Pohbis wrote:
With the increase to explosion radius, and no increase to explosion velocity, this change might as well not happen. At least when talking PvP.

Mission runners will be happy tho Lol


When I looked into the interaction of the numbers, I found that future cruise will do a minimum of 21% more applied damage to all targets for most sensible combinations of sig and speed. It did seem to break down to a minimum of 19.6% in some odd combinations of speed and sig, but basically you're looking at a minimum of 20% more damage from cruise in all situations.


THANK YOU

Its always nice when people use the strange and unusual practice of backing up their assertions with facts. :)
Airto TLA
Acorn's Wonder Bars
#669 - 2013-05-15 18:46:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Airto TLA
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Pohbis wrote:
With the increase to explosion radius, and no increase to explosion velocity, this change might as well not happen. At least when talking PvP.

Mission runners will be happy tho Lol


When I looked into the interaction of the numbers, I found that future cruise will do a minimum of 21% more applied damage to all targets for most sensible combinations of sig and speed. It did seem to break down to a minimum of 19.6% in some odd combinations of speed and sig, but basically you're looking at a minimum of 20% more damage from cruise in all situations.


THANK YOU

Its always nice when people use the strange and unusual practice of backing up their assertions with facts. :)


Not a big missle guy, have a quick question at range of speeds and sigs do I drop to 21% increase in basically no damage, (ex. 10 pts x 1.2 = 12, oh boy).

I would assume the increased speed would also help in fringe cases where the ship moves out of range/or warps away/you warp while missles are in flight?

I also assume that why the missles never get worse under this scenerio is because the damage can not go to zero like guns can? And the explosion radius to sig produces a more linear relationship?
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#670 - 2013-05-15 21:45:40 UTC
Airto TLA wrote:
Not a big missle guy, have a quick question at range of speeds and sigs do I drop to 21% increase in basically no damage, (ex. 10 pts x 1.2 = 12, oh boy).

I would assume the increased speed would also help in fringe cases where the ship moves out of range/or warps away/you warp while missles are in flight?

I also assume that why the missles never get worse under this scenerio is because the damage can not go to zero like guns can? And the explosion radius to sig produces a more linear relationship?


a) I don't follow the question, sorry.

b) Yes, it reduces the damage delay, which is almost always good (really fringe cases of cruise following an inty out to 300 km, or citadels following a Mach into a POS shield and volleying it after it stops with MWD on. Note that if you activate warp, then your missiles in flight will do zero damage (last time I checked, anyway).

c) The increased reduction in damage by sig issues is at maximum 9.1%, because, er, 100*(1-1/1.1), where 1.1 is the factor of increase of explorad of new cruise. However, this is always combined with the 31.6% increase in damage, resulting in a minimum damage increase of 19.6%, as calculated by multiplying the aforementioned 1/1.1 by 1.316, giving 1.196.
Airto TLA
Acorn's Wonder Bars
#671 - 2013-05-15 22:03:18 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Airto TLA wrote:
Not a big missle guy, have a quick question at range of speeds and sigs do I drop to 21% increase in basically no damage, (ex. 10 pts x 1.2 = 12, oh boy).

I would assume the increased speed would also help in fringe cases where the ship moves out of range/or warps away/you warp while missles are in flight?

I also assume that why the missles never get worse under this scenerio is because the damage can not go to zero like guns can? And the explosion radius to sig produces a more linear relationship?


a) I don't follow the question, sorry.

b) Yes, it reduces the damage delay, which is almost always good (really fringe cases of cruise following an inty out to 300 km, or citadels following a Mach into a POS shield and volleying it after it stops with MWD on. Note that if you activate warp, then your missiles in flight will do zero damage (last time I checked, anyway).

c) The increased reduction in damage by sig issues is at maximum 9.1%, because, er, 100*(1-1/1.1), where 1.1 is the factor of increase of explorad of new cruise. However, this is always combined with the 31.6% increase in damage, resulting in a minimum damage increase of 19.6%, as calculated by multiplying the aforementioned 1/1.1 by 1.316, giving 1.196.


A) I was asking at what point is a normal cruise missle is basically a pointless operation, since it will do some dmage but not enough to really matter.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#672 - 2013-05-17 06:56:14 UTC
Hi,

this buff is insanely over the board and needs to be halved.

.
lovatus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#673 - 2013-05-17 09:22:28 UTC
I question the wisdom of having long range missiles in general. the amount of flight time pretty much rules out their use in pvp. and if this is intended to be a long range sysem I'd rather take a bigger velocity boost over out and out damage
stoicfaux
#674 - 2013-05-17 17:24:59 UTC
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=230551&find=unread

PDF Reports comparing the Odyssey cruise missile/ship changes are available in the above link:
* cnr_flare_v_rigor_odyssey.pdf
* cnr_rigs_odyssey.pdf
* cnr_v_fleet_typhoon_odyssey.pdf
* cnr_v_typhoon_v_raven_v_fleet_typhoon_v_sni_v_golem_odyssey.pdf
* cruise_cnr_v_torp_golem.pdf
* raven_v_cnr_odyssey.pdf
* tengu_ham_v_hml.pdf

It should help answer the CNR is just a Golem-Lite question. Or whether the CNR's "applied damage" bonus sets it apart from the "everything now has 8 effective launchers" ship changes.

You can also mess around with the easy to read spreadsheet.[1]


[1] I think Perl is easy to read. That's your only warning.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Godhevel I
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#675 - 2013-05-18 03:42:29 UTC
violator2k5 wrote:
raven mission runners will be happy with this change, doubt it'll do much for pvp though, ravens really are not a good choice of ship for pvp in general



I wish they were viable, since most Caldari ships ( Besides Cruisers and Tech 2s ) above cruisers are barely even used outside of mission running. Though I am not the best one to say this ( Haven't been much into PVP ), I think that they should be a hell of a lot faster and maybe even stronger.
Godhevel I
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#676 - 2013-05-18 04:00:07 UTC
Quote:


Buff the phoon and tempest tanks a bit and then raise the sig rad to meet the rest of the ships. Nerf their speed to be on course with the rest of the ships. Matar enjoys benefits that few other in game ships get. Whats interesting how he picked the smallest BS in game when in fact, it is a battleship and it can have a battleship tank, it nearly matches the raven, yet its sig radius is battle cruiser size and it is still faster with 2 armor plates and rigs on. The raven is faster by 8 m/s if you stick a nano fiber in a low slot.

A battleship weapon should be able to hit all battleships without difficulty. Irony... the phoon using the same weapons can hit the raven and other battleships with no issue with its bonus, fair? Of course not.. It has advantages in every category except range. So it is better than the raven, so his example shows exactly why they need to be apply damage better.

So as you mention how CCP is buffing missiles around rewarding game concept, I would like to point out a matar missile ship that can do solo work with missiles and it uses a caldari weapon and is better at using it than caldari !
Not only that, every other weapon system and race in game uses a weapon system that can be used very well for solo or gang work and yet again, the caldari is the exception.

Surely we can not actually enforce the game lore of a race with superior weapons and defense to actually be better than others, of course not..We cant even have them on equal footing, never ! A handful of people want them behind everyone.

Do you see something wrong with that? You dont obviously.. Is that balance? It is not.
So your rewarding game concept comes at the cost of a race's ships and the people who fly them to be unhappy with the time and money they spend and I am betting your response will be either fly another race or dont play eve.. That about right?

Also Gypsio will pick and choose his battles carefully and throw what evidence he can, but he will argue against something does not produce the proper argument, as already stated.

No one is right all the time. Also with eve and with all modules and possibilities and ideas of people, to say that Afterburners are not used, is a load of crap.


What he said hits the nail right on the freak'n head.
stoicfaux
#677 - 2013-05-20 02:20:45 UTC
In the context of PvE, Fury cruise missiles outperform torps in PvE, meaning, there's not a lot reasons to fly torps in PvE.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_CLlTV8bSxNMGFTNldabVdETFk/edit

Basically, Fury cruise missiles can kill most common types/range of NPCs almost as quickly as torpedoes, and do so without the range limitations of torps and without having to switch ammo due to Fury missiles being able to efficiently kill cruiser NPCs.

So... Fury missiles might need a bigger explosion radius penalty.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#678 - 2013-05-20 03:49:58 UTC
I would think that the cost of T2 cruises vs T1 torps might give a reason to use the T1 torps for PvE.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#679 - 2013-05-20 06:17:33 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
I would think that the cost of T2 cruises vs T1 torps might give a reason to use the T1 torps for PvE.


Pretty much no. The cost of ammo, even T2 missiles, is small compared to the rewards.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#680 - 2013-05-20 11:33:57 UTC
Godhevel I wrote:
Quote:


Buff the phoon and tempest tanks a bit and then raise the sig rad to meet the rest of the ships. Nerf their speed to be on course with the rest of the ships. Matar enjoys benefits that few other in game ships get. Whats interesting how he picked the smallest BS in game when in fact, it is a battleship and it can have a battleship tank, it nearly matches the raven, yet its sig radius is battle cruiser size and it is still faster with 2 armor plates and rigs on. The raven is faster by 8 m/s if you stick a nano fiber in a low slot.

A battleship weapon should be able to hit all battleships without difficulty. Irony... the phoon using the same weapons can hit the raven and other battleships with no issue with its bonus, fair? Of course not.. It has advantages in every category except range. So it is better than the raven, so his example shows exactly why they need to be apply damage better.

So as you mention how CCP is buffing missiles around rewarding game concept, I would like to point out a matar missile ship that can do solo work with missiles and it uses a caldari weapon and is better at using it than caldari !
Not only that, every other weapon system and race in game uses a weapon system that can be used very well for solo or gang work and yet again, the caldari is the exception.

Surely we can not actually enforce the game lore of a race with superior weapons and defense to actually be better than others, of course not..We cant even have them on equal footing, never ! A handful of people want them behind everyone.

Do you see something wrong with that? You dont obviously.. Is that balance? It is not.
So your rewarding game concept comes at the cost of a race's ships and the people who fly them to be unhappy with the time and money they spend and I am betting your response will be either fly another race or dont play eve.. That about right?

Also Gypsio will pick and choose his battles carefully and throw what evidence he can, but he will argue against something does not produce the proper argument, as already stated.

No one is right all the time. Also with eve and with all modules and possibilities and ideas of people, to say that Afterburners are not used, is a load of crap.


What he said hits the nail right on the freak'n head.


No he is completely WRONG. Stop tryign to neutralzie race differences.

Minamtar shoudl be smaller and faster. Its enough that they made the absurd of making caldari more agile than minmatar. What minmatar ships need is less than other races and less capacitor and be a bit faster and a bit more agile.


The so called advantages taht somespeak are mostly lies at battleship level. No cap usage for gusn is HARDLY relevant on pvp on battleship level except if you are facing a dedicated neutralizing ship. BTw caldari has exact same advantage.

Races need MORE, INCREASED, and EXPANDED RACIAL DIFFERENCES. TO hell with homogenization!

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"