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[Odyssey] Cruise Missiles

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Funky Lazers
Funk Freakers
#401 - 2013-04-19 09:52:33 UTC
Bereza Mia wrote:
Typhoon vs Raven

Before this cruise missiles changes many ppl said that Typhoon will be far better than Raven due to it +25% explosion speed.
What we have now, with all this new cruise?
The gap between T and R will become even more.

+missile velocity = Raven's bonus will be less valuable
+explosion radius = Typhoon's bonus will be more valuable


Unless Torps change.
If the range changes from 20km to 30-35km with no ship bonus Raven might shine. Because right now there is not much of a difference between 20km and 30km.
With the increased range it will be 30-35km on a Phoon and 45-48km on a Raven which will make Raven bonus viable.

Anyway I'm gonna grab some popcorn and wait for the news on Torps.

Whatever.
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#402 - 2013-04-19 10:22:42 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
I think you're missing mathematical incompetence. The other poster (Chessur?) is just clueless.
Lol Ok.

Josilin du Guesclin wrote:

Nothing - damage will always be more than it was....
That is what I thought, but was just wondering... I could have missed something.

My CNR has been so happy since the Cruise Missile announcement... I wanted to make sure she wasn't going to be disappointed.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#403 - 2013-04-19 10:32:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
mistake, editing...
no, it was right all along...

Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
The only real issue I see is that the explosion radius of Fury will be so large that it'll take two painters to make even a stationary battleship's signature big enough to apply full damage to it.


Nonsense.

Fury Cruise will have an explosion radius of 425.7 m, there's plenty of BS with a bigger sig. If my spreadsheet is right, only Apoc, Mega and Typhoon will have a smaller sig (I may have missed recent revisions). Of course, velocity comes into it as well, but it's sig/ER that acts as a hard cap to damage application that requires a painter (or comparable) to circumvent.

My data (and I've accounted for the effects of plausible fits on sig and speed) indicate that, for a BS moving at full base speed, Fury will outdamage CN for the Abaddon, Rokh, Scorpion and Maelstrom. Add a single painter and you can add Armageddon, Hyperion and Dominix too.
Bucca Zerodyme
Good For Nothing Corporation
#404 - 2013-04-19 13:29:12 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:

I think you're missing mathematical incompetence. The other poster (Chessur?) is just clueless.

Take the following cases:

A Raven shoots CN Cruise (247.5 m, 103.5 m/s) at a MWDing Megathron (954 m/s, 2280 m sig). WIth new cruise, damage dealt is 100%, so the 10% increase in explosion radius has no effect, you get the full benefit of the 31.6% cruise DPS increase.

A Raven shoots CN Cruise (247.5 m, 103.5 m/s) at a MWDing Drake (1003 m/s, 2090 m sig). Old cruise did 96.3% damage; new cruise will do 88.6% damage. Accounting for 31.6% more DPS from new cruise gives an increase in applied DPS with new cruise of 21.0%. A single painter takes both to 100% damage, resulting in 31.6% more DPS from new cruise.

A Raven shoots CN Cruise (247.5 m, 103.5 m/s) at a MWDing shield Hurricane (1293 m/s, 1796 m sig). Old cruise did 67.4% damage; new cruise does only 61.9%, ohnoes, a nerf! Not quite. Accounting for the extra 31.6% DPS from new cruise indicates that new cruise will again do 21.0% more damage than old cruise.

This rule of >21% more applied damage seems to hold true in most sensible combinations of sig and speed, although it does seem to break down to 19.6% in some odd combinations. I don't have time to track it down right now though.


Im worried, if Cruise is going to become a powerfully weapon then ppl will start using AB instant of MWD or dual prop. I dont thik that might happen, because there are many other problems with missiles.

I may miss the point, but if i dont cant use Fury on BC its fine, but i want to use Fury on almost any BS. Did someone do some math and calculated the Fury dmg with a Typhoon? It should be more easier for the Typhoon to use Fury.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#405 - 2013-04-19 17:53:37 UTC
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Kueyen wrote:
...Damage(Fury) = 420 * Min( 1, (S/516), (0.1124*S/Vt)^(0.9078) )
See this is where I am having a problem, especially with that exponent being less than 1. With all other variables being constant, I don't see how increasing the explosion radius by 10% offsets the increase in 30% base damage... as another poster declared.

What I see... and of course I am wrong... is that the actual effect on a 10% increase in explosion radius will be limited to about a 8% -8.5% reduction in damage application. But if one includes the 30% base damage increase, then isn't actual damage greater under all scenarios with regards to the new stats verse the old?

What am I missing that the other poster sees? What?

Nothing - damage will always be more than it was. If the target is small, the buff will be ~20%, if it is large, up to ~30%. The only real issue I see is that the explosion radius of Fury will be so large that it'll take two painters to make even a stationary battleship's signature big enough to apply full damage to it, making them worthless (compared to faction, sometimes also compared to Precision or even regular ammo) except for killing heavily webbed capitals and structure bashing.


I wonder if this will give rise to Cruise Golems.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#406 - 2013-04-19 18:27:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
Bucca Zerodyme wrote:
I may miss the point, but if i dont cant use Fury on BC its fine, but i want to use Fury on almost any BS. Did someone do some math and calculated the Fury dmg with a Typhoon? It should be more easier for the Typhoon to use Fury.


It will, but BS with a sig smaller than 425.7 m will never take full damage from Fury - unless Rigour, painting or Crash, ofc.

Remember that the BS line is being split into combat and attack BS. The attack BS will be smaller and faster; the combat BS will be slower and fatter, and therefore a more appropriate target for Fury. Expecting full damage from Fury on all attack BS without appropriate support is unreasonable.
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#407 - 2013-04-19 19:42:30 UTC
Jonas Sukarala wrote:

- missiles ought to do more alpha than a bullet


Why? The amount of damage done, is dependant on the relative mass and velocity of the projectile, and size of it, when we are looking at 'bullets' and other turret projectiles in eve. Hybrid weapon slugs are hyper accelerated, and so it seems rather obvious that they would be doing just as much, if not far more damage than missiles, especially when you think of how focused the impact would be on armor and shields. As for projectile weaponry however, without any hard data on size, mass, velocity, and internal explosive components of the ammunition used, no, we have no useful data showing that missiles 'ought' to do more alpha than a bullet. We only have your opinion. For all we know, Artillery shells in eve could be the same size as missiles, and when you consider how fast they reach the target, and their explosive components, it only makes sense that they do far more damage.


Also, long needed fix for cruise missiles.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#408 - 2013-04-19 20:16:17 UTC
Arronicus wrote:
Jonas Sukarala wrote:

- missiles ought to do more alpha than a bullet


Why? The amount of damage done, is dependant on the relative mass and velocity of the projectile, and size of it, when we are looking at 'bullets' and other turret projectiles in eve. Hybrid weapon slugs are hyper accelerated, and so it seems rather obvious that they would be doing just as much, if not far more damage than missiles, especially when you think of how focused the impact would be on armor and shields. As for projectile weaponry however, without any hard data on size, mass, velocity, and internal explosive components of the ammunition used, no, we have no useful data showing that missiles 'ought' to do more alpha than a bullet. We only have your opinion. For all we know, Artillery shells in eve could be the same size as missiles, and when you consider how fast they reach the target, and their explosive components, it only makes sense that they do far more damage.


Also, long needed fix for cruise missiles.


Bullets: http://tinyurl.com/chvve8u
Missiles: http://tinyurl.com/3g3pt8t

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Enya Sparhawk
Black Tea and Talons
#409 - 2013-04-19 20:36:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Enya Sparhawk
This is what I was thinking...

Damage = Base_Damage * MIN[sig(drf/2.6)/Er, 1, (Ev/Er * sig/vel)^(log(drf) / log(5.5))]

as opposed to:

Damage = Base_Damage * MIN(sig/Er, 1, (Ev/Er * sig/vel)^(log(drf) / log(5.5)))

to further define the relationship between the size of the missle (and ergo resulting explosion radius) and the ship it is being fired at...

Does this make sense?

I still think it is missing something else though...

Fíorghrá: Grá na fírinne

Maireann croí éadrom i bhfad.

Bíonn súil le muir ach ní bhíonn súil le tír.

Is maith an scéalaí an aimsir.

When the lost ships of Greece finally return home...
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#410 - 2013-04-19 20:44:29 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Arronicus wrote:
Jonas Sukarala wrote:

- missiles ought to do more alpha than a bullet


Why? The amount of damage done, is dependant on the relative mass and velocity of the projectile, and size of it, when we are looking at 'bullets' and other turret projectiles in eve. Hybrid weapon slugs are hyper accelerated, and so it seems rather obvious that they would be doing just as much, if not far more damage than missiles, especially when you think of how focused the impact would be on armor and shields. As for projectile weaponry however, without any hard data on size, mass, velocity, and internal explosive components of the ammunition used, no, we have no useful data showing that missiles 'ought' to do more alpha than a bullet. We only have your opinion. For all we know, Artillery shells in eve could be the same size as missiles, and when you consider how fast they reach the target, and their explosive components, it only makes sense that they do far more damage.


Also, long needed fix for cruise missiles.


Bullets: http://tinyurl.com/chvve8u
Missiles: http://tinyurl.com/3g3pt8t

-Liang


Guns can put out some hurt too.
Funky Lazers
Funk Freakers
#411 - 2013-04-19 21:11:31 UTC
You can't beat the nuke.

Whatever.
Enya Sparhawk
Black Tea and Talons
#412 - 2013-04-19 21:53:59 UTC
LOL Why?

Bullets: http://tinyurl.com/chvve8u
Missiles: http://tinyurl.com/3g3pt8t
Guns can put out some hurt too.

Fíorghrá: Grá na fírinne

Maireann croí éadrom i bhfad.

Bíonn súil le muir ach ní bhíonn súil le tír.

Is maith an scéalaí an aimsir.

When the lost ships of Greece finally return home...
Funky Lazers
Funk Freakers
#413 - 2013-04-19 22:09:17 UTC
Enya Sparhawk wrote:
LOL Why?

Bullets: http://tinyurl.com/chvve8u
Missiles: http://tinyurl.com/3g3pt8t
Guns can put out some hurt too.



Lol because that gif is a fake.

Whatever.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#414 - 2013-04-20 00:08:41 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Bullets: http://tinyurl.com/chvve8u
Missiles: http://tinyurl.com/3g3pt8t

-Liang
http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/0108/phobos_vik1_r1.jpg
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2008/image08/080121mial-mimas.gif
These holes were put there by objects much smaller which did not explode on impact. They were like bullets. Very FAST bullets.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Falin Whalen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#415 - 2013-04-20 00:29:46 UTC
Funky Lazers wrote:
Enya Sparhawk wrote:
LOL Why?

Bullets: http://tinyurl.com/chvve8u
Missiles: http://tinyurl.com/3g3pt8t
Guns can put out some hurt too.



Lol because that gif is a fake.

Um, I think you are wrong.

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 
Funky Lazers
Funk Freakers
#416 - 2013-04-20 06:11:59 UTC
Falin Whalen wrote:
Funky Lazers wrote:
Enya Sparhawk wrote:
LOL Why?

Bullets: http://tinyurl.com/chvve8u
Missiles: http://tinyurl.com/3g3pt8t
Guns can put out some hurt too.



Lol because that gif is a fake.

Um, I think you are wrong.


It looks shopped, I can tell from some of the pixels and from seeing quite a few shops in my time.

Whatever.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#417 - 2013-04-20 06:43:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Funky Lazers wrote:
It looks shopped, I can tell from some of the pixels and from seeing quite a few shops in my time.
It's a low quality GIF that accurately represents a video that is fake. The fake video depicts a very real weapon firing in a very realistic manner, and shows an accurate representation of the weapon's destructive potential. Also, sound apparently travels at the speed of light in the video. It's also entirely a bad way to represent the original point, which was to suggest that bullets can be as damaging as explosives. Since the high-damage weapon in the GIF is using explosive ammunition, it demonstrates nothing about non-explosive ammunition.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
SongSinger
BlitzStrike
#418 - 2013-04-20 12:11:57 UTC
most annoying that as the transverse velocity to zero gun deal 100% damage, it does not matter if SIGtarget/SIGweapon<1
missiles even stationary target unable to deal 100% damage, if SIGtarget/RadiusExpl<1
this is especially annoying with citadel cruise missiles (torpedoes)
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#419 - 2013-04-20 12:23:42 UTC
SongSinger wrote:
most annoying that as the transverse velocity to zero gun deal 100% damage, it does not matter if SIGtarget/SIGweapon<1
missiles even stationary target unable to deal 100% damage, if SIGtarget/RadiusExpl<1
this is especially annoying with citadel cruise missiles (torpedoes)

Transversal is never zero unless you are EHP bashing or stumble upon someone who had a bathroom emergency (ie. AFK). Controlling/minimizing transversal is a large part of successful use of guns, but you are right to defeat the explosion radius you need a module, specifically a TP which is a fair trade considering you potentially do 100% damage at all ranges without having to switch ammo (no optimal/falloff concerns).
SongSinger
BlitzStrike
#420 - 2013-04-20 12:39:18 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
SongSinger wrote:
most annoying that as the transverse velocity to zero gun deal 100% damage, it does not matter if SIGtarget/SIGweapon<1
missiles even stationary target unable to deal 100% damage, if SIGtarget/RadiusExpl<1
this is especially annoying with citadel cruise missiles (torpedoes)

Transversal is never zero unless you are EHP bashing or stumble upon someone who had a bathroom emergency (ie. AFK). Controlling/minimizing transversal is a large part of successful use of guns, but you are right to defeat the explosion radius you need a module, specifically a TP which is a fair trade considering you potentially do 100% damage at all ranges without having to switch ammo (no optimal/falloff concerns).

Interceptor is flying at full speed from (to) Tempest, transverse velocity is zero (it happens)
Tempest does not require additional modules to make the wreck of the interceptor in a single shot