Player Features and Ideas Discussion

You do realise the top damage Missiles range is 20 km. Torp and Ham

not that I want missiles to be more like guns, but to make them viable they (or the ships) need better ways to deal with smaller ships.

...Wondering how the Cruise Missile buffer will improve this classic fit...? Thoughts?

My Raven will be equipped with the following:

HIGH
06 x Cruise Missile Launcher I
01 x SMALL TRACTOR BEAM 1
01 x SALVAGER I

MEDIUM
04 x LARGE SHIELD EXTENDERS
01 x 'HYPHNOS' ECM
01 x MEDIUM SHIELD BOOSTER

LOW
01 x EMERGENCY DAMAGE CONTROL
01 x ARMOR KINETIC HARDENER I
01 x ARMOR THREMIC HARDENER I
02 x WARP CORE STABILIZER I

DRONES
02 x WARRIOR I DRONES
03 x HAMMERHEAD I DRONES

UPGRADES
01 x ROCKET FUEL CACHE PARTINTION I
01 x BAY LOADING ACCELERATOR I
01 x HYDRAULIC BAY THRUSTER I

Are you not mixing shield and armor tanking?

Damage = D * Min( 1, (S/E), (S/E*Ve/Vt) ^ (ln(drf)/ln(5.5)) )

drf (Damage Reduction Factor) = 4.5 for Regular/CN, 4.7 for Fury, 3.5 for Precision
D = 300 for Regular/Fury, 345 for CN, 420 for Fury
E = 300 for Regular/CN, 270 for Precision, 516 for Fury
Ve = 69 for Regular/CN, 83 for Precision, 58 for Fury

Damage(Precision) = 300 * Min( 1, (S/270), (0.3074*S/Vt)^(0.7349) )
Damage(Regular) = 300 * Min( 1, (S/300), (0.2300*S/Vt)^(0.8823) )
Damage(CN) = 345 * Min( 1, (S/300), (0.2300*S/Vt)^(0.8823) )
Damage(Fury) = 420 * Min( 1, (S/516), (0.1124*S/Vt)^(0.9078) )

Of course I do. As long as you're careful in picking your engagements it'll work out fairly well too. Most people aren't expecting a 1500 DPS freight train to hit them. ;-)

-Liang

Ed: I also PVP fit the old mining frigates, atrons, herons, firetails, comets, stabbers, scythe fleet issues, omens, and more.

Why do you feel it is necassary to increase the power grid requirement and explosion radius?

Wouldn't it be more efficient to increase the explosion velocity, missile velocity (w/ lower flight time) and a less massive brute damage buff?

Will there be modules added that enable a pilot to affect their explosion velocity and explosion radius? As this is very much needed!

The explosion velocity would help the cruise missiles better hit a moving target; thereby acting as a damage buff in and of itself. The higher missile velocity combined with a shorter flight time would reduce the time-delay from firing to hitting. Making it harder for a PvP target to escape damage. Also would act to increase the felt DPS on the target as there would be less delay between volleys.

Furthermore, are the proposed missile changes live on the test server yet? I am assuming it wouid be Singularity.

Grid is not a problem, i have about 4000 MW left on my Raven. I think it should be more difficult to fit cruise, because it does a huge dmg now.

Dunno about the explosion radius, i cant guess what CCP is thinking. Its not like the upcoming modules would be better then the current explosion radius + TP. I would be really surprised otherwise. Anyway this a step backwards for PvP-Combat. I mostly use Cruise in PvE, and i dont have any issues on the higher explosion radius.

PvE: x [dont care]
PvP: -



true, i would take the better explosion radius and explosion velocity. its not like im unhappy with this change, but i dont see how this is going to balance anything. Cruise missiles with T1 Ammo usually perform good, the DPS is not high but its easy to use it and you dont need to do much during missions, like getting in position etc. If you want more Dmg then use Fury. I think a 10%-15%buff in dmg would be good and keep the current radius. The only wish i would have, is reducing the penalty from using Fury missiles, the base explosion radius [516 -> 480] and explosion velocity[58 -> 60] for Fury is a bit high. Would be much easier to use, even for the low SP-Pilots.

PvE: + [dmg is always good in PvE]
PvP: - [Cruise do already good DMG, it sucks only at appyling it]



I would be really sad if not, but i guess as i already told in my previous posts, this modules are not of any use in PvE, because you can apply Full DPS with 1TP + 2 Rigs already (even with Fury and against smaller targets like Cruisers you should switch to precision missiles). I think this modules would likely used in PvP, but i cant guess if it would be of any use, because a TP increase your DPS about 30%, so this modules should at least boost that far too. The only thing i would happy about is a low-slot module.

PvE: x
PvP: + - [dont really know how this modules would like, so i cant judge them now]



Try to explain that to the CCP-Guys. The good thing is we know cruise sucks in PvP. The bad thing is CCP think they can fix it with modules. lets do some math, i have the most missiles skills at 5, wit Fury i get the following stats:
- explosion radius: 425 m
- explosion velocity: 87 m/s

This a guess, but lets say the target is moving about 140 m/s and has about 420 signature radius.
DPS on Target about:
1 * ((420 * 87) / (425 * 140))^(0.882) = 0.65
Its about 35% less, it gets even worse with more speed and smaller targets. If the modules are to powerfully then you only need about 1-2 modules [and precision would kill Cruisers easy], if they are underpowered, then it wont help you at all. I dont see a solution to this problem, if the modules sucks, then you cant use Fury, which is a sad thing, otherwise precision will kill any Cruiser.

precision missiles would be:
- explosion radius: 222.75 m
- explosion velocity: 124.5 m/s

This a guess, but lets say the target is moving about 300 m/s and has about 150 signature radius.
DPS on Target about:
1 * ((150 * 124.5) / (222.75 * 300))^(0.7348) = 0.39 [Remember you are soothing at a Cruiser, if you do less dmg its not that bad because your base dmg is higher. You can always be satisfied if you can do about 75% of you dmg]
Thats 61% less dmg, with a TP it would be about 0.47



just checked SiSi. Nope nothing, but dont except them this summer, CCP's working speed is that of a turtle.

Edit: inserted an example with precision missiles

True, but that doesn't mean that I am gonna like it. Especially since certain CCP devs don't seem to understand their own algorithms.


I agree with you on the 10-15% Buff to dmg with the same explosion stats. Also the penalties with T2 missiles really need to go. It is bad enough that missile-users (like myself) can't compete in PvP on equal footing with turret users.

CCP, I hope that you are paying attention!


Yes, the modules need to be low slots and for PvP usage. I concurr that there would be extremely limited to no use for PvE.


Shouldn't need to be explained. CCP wrote the d**mn equation in the first place. It shouldn't be that hard to look at the equation for damage dealt. If they played with missiles for a week or a few days they would see exactly what I mean. Otherwise I have to use precious rig slots to get my results. Which I am not inclined to do for boats like the Raven.

I am sure that all of us can agree that Cruise Missiles are as useful as confetti with regards to PvP. But giving the missiles a massive damage buff isn't the answer. If the missiles can't apply that damage it doesn't fix anything! Missiles need to be fixed one of two ways. It will be bolded, so CCP, you can't claim you missed it:

1) Missiles have the highest alpha of the game. To offset the reductions due to (Explosion Sig / Target Sig) and (Explos-V/ Target-V). The 'V' stands for velocity as you'll should recognize from physics class. If you want an in-game logical reason, a missile defintiely could deal more damage than a bullet from an 'archaeic' projectile weapon. [Historical FYI, rocket-assisted shells is not a new idea, they existed in WWII].

2) Keep the present Explosion Radius. Increase the Explosion velocity to offset target velocity more. Increase missile flight speed and reduce flight time to compensate (Claim they have a small MWD engine for all I care! Drones have them so why can't missiles). Increase the base damage by 10-15%. This would go a much longer way towards giving missiles a place in PvP and on even footing with turrets, in the right situations.

Thoughts from my fellow missile-users?

Why in the heck are you using Fury for the Raven? I think you're setting it up to fail - on a BC target you should be using Precision or Faction. My estimates suggest Precision will almost always be the right choice with the new numbers if the target sub-cap and moving at all, unless you need range (in which case use Faction). Fury is for stationary targets and capitals, as always.

I think you're missing mathematical incompetence. The other poster (Chessur?) is just clueless.

Take the following cases:

A Raven shoots CN Cruise (247.5 m, 103.5 m/s) at a MWDing Megathron (954 m/s, 2280 m sig). WIth new cruise, damage dealt is 100%, so the 10% increase in explosion radius has no effect, you get the full benefit of the 31.6% cruise DPS increase.

A Raven shoots CN Cruise (247.5 m, 103.5 m/s) at a MWDing Drake (1003 m/s, 2090 m sig). Old cruise did 96.3% damage; new cruise will do 88.6% damage. Accounting for 31.6% more DPS from new cruise gives an increase in applied DPS with new cruise of 21.0%. A single painter takes both to 100% damage, resulting in 31.6% more DPS from new cruise.

A Raven shoots CN Cruise (247.5 m, 103.5 m/s) at a MWDing shield Hurricane (1293 m/s, 1796 m sig). Old cruise did 67.4% damage; new cruise does only 61.9%, ohnoes, a nerf! Not quite. Accounting for the extra 31.6% DPS from new cruise indicates that new cruise will again do 21.0% more damage than old cruise.

This rule of >21% more applied damage seems to hold true in most sensible combinations of sig and speed, although it does seem to break down to 19.6% in some odd combinations. I don't have time to track it down right now though.