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Intergalactic Summit

 
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The Problem with the Caldari State

Author
Faelan Maris
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#21 - 2011-10-18 15:52:53 UTC
Alain Octirant wrote:
Very interesting words, General Inhonores, and I'm not surprised to see the State apologists doing what they do best, making excuses for their fundamentally broken society.

In fact, I'm being overly kind, there. I live in a society, a dynamic organism with culture and everything.

The Caldari live in an economy, and little else.

Quite predictable, boring words Captain Octirant, and I am not surprised to see the usual Gallente supremacists doing what they do best, being self-righteous about how they know what is best for everyone in the cluster.

In fact, I am being overly kind there. You live in a society where the style of dress worn by the latest teen megasuperstar is more important to the average citizen than what your central government is doing, and where most of your people have the attention span of an infant. You may enjoy your definition of "dynamicism", but it is strange to me to see so many people who claim to believe in "freedom" promptly turn around and deny the value of any opinion other than their own.

I will not claim that the Gallente live only in a media circus and little else, because I do bother to pay enough attention to realize that there is more to the Federation than just just the latest fashion trends, or blowhards spouting cultural megalomania while trampling over anything that cannot be condensed into a 15-second sound bite. However, if I accept what you say about the grain of truth to all stereotypes, what does that say about your people?
Bataav
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
#22 - 2011-10-18 16:28:28 UTC
Desiderya wrote:
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:

Well, Caldari foaming at the mouth over a self-righteous Gallentean is nothing new.

Observation of recent activities on the IGS give me the impression that if there's someone foaming at the mouth over this topic it would be you, Mr. Inhonores.

Not just recently, unfortunately.

The General, it seems, is a creature of habit and has therefore become disappointingly predictable.

He will, when the notion takes him, address the Summit with an inflamitory diatribe that gives voice to his own narrow world view of one topic or another. After lighting the proverbial touchpaper, the General will then retreat to a safe distance and watch the fireworks as others with an actual interest in the subject matter, debate and argue. Were those of us who engage in intelligent debate to pause for a moment I'd not be surprised if we were to hear him giggling to himself in the corner at the supposed mirth he feels he's generated. After all it's rare he returns to a discussion once it's generated it's own momentum.

Of course, in his pursuit for personal amusement, the General has failed to realise he's actually redundant in his efforts. The Summit doesn't need a jester-type character to poke and prod at the audience hoping to stir up another cholar inducing arguement between the various factions present here. There are already plenty of us who are fully invested enough to willingly defend our chosen cause should they be challenged without his attempts at influencing the debate.

In the months I've been a diplomatic representative of the ILF, encountering the General's "thoughts for the day" more times than I care to remember, I've learned to disregard them as little more than poorly disguised attempts to bait the rest of us into fighting amongst ourselves for his pleasure.

Inhonores would do well to take a lesson from his own daughter.

It's telling when an 11 year old child has the presence of mind to publically apologise for attacking another, despite the honourable intent behind the offensive actions, while a General of the Federation appears to blunder from one public outburst to another in a manner unbefitting of his rank.
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#23 - 2011-10-18 17:04:48 UTC
Isn't this a little self-indulgently condescending, Seri?

Even for you?

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.

Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#24 - 2011-10-18 18:38:57 UTC
Your lack of bias and extensive experience living in the State truly brings your opinions the respect they deserve, Seriphyn. Well done.

Katrina Oniseki

Paul J Keating
The Light on the Hill
#25 - 2011-10-18 20:56:11 UTC
Desiderya wrote:
This is true. The corporations strive towards economic excellence, which is measured ultimately in profit. Your conclusion, however, is wrong. To the Caldari, meritocracy is more than just a buzz word.


Please explain. Only a tiny portion are CEOs and board members, and even then they're still essentially economic assets.


Faelan Maris wrote:
You may enjoy your definition of "dynamicism", but it is strange to me to see so many people who claim to believe in "freedom" promptly turn around and deny the value of any opinion other than their own.


Yes, many Federal citizens do believe in 'freedom', like the freedom to opine something on a public forum. Shocking I know.

Faelan Maris wrote:
I will not claim that the Gallente live only in a media circus and little else, because I do bother to pay enough attention to realize that there is more to the Federation than just just the latest fashion trends, or blowhards spouting cultural megalomania while trampling over anything that cannot be condensed into a 15-second sound bite. However, if I accept what you say about the grain of truth to all stereotypes, what does that say about your people?


I think it says that the Gallente Federation is a free society, where people are free to enjoy themselves. If they want they can follow their favourite fashion designer or idols from the holoreels, because why not? It can be quite fun.
Ruah Piskonit
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#26 - 2011-10-18 22:38:44 UTC
I suggest you dedicate yourself to a little more study. While I can understand your lack of understanding about what constitutes the caldari state and its political composition, what shocks me is that you think you do.
Ruah Piskonit
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#27 - 2011-10-18 22:39:05 UTC
apologies for the double post.
Desiderya
Blue Canary
Watch This
#28 - 2011-10-18 22:54:50 UTC
Paul J Keating wrote:


Please explain. Only a tiny portion are CEOs and board members, and even then they're still essentially economic assets.



Like a voter is a political asset.
Corporations themselves are vessels to make a profit. Meritocracy means that this profit will benefit those that have worked for it. From the CEO to the most simple worker, the corporation will care and provide for their 'assets'. People take pride in the accomplishment of 'their' corporations, since they have ultimately been a part of that, as mall as it may have been.

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.

Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#29 - 2011-10-18 23:17:38 UTC
Paul J Keating wrote:
One of Mr. Grayson's recent posts tells us that the corporations of the State are driven by the desire to keep profits high and they have drawn battlelines over the way to do so. That majority of people in the State live under these corporations seems to suggest that citizens of the corporations 'live in an economy' and are nothing more than 'economic assets'.


Companies focus on profits because that's the thing that keeps companies afloat, if they were losing money the corporations wouldn't exist. It's also their duty to their employees to stay in active existence, otherwise their staff risk unemployment and poverty.

However that is purely discussion on the corporation system within the State (or to be fair, business in general) not a reflection of the people of the State.




And on the other side of the argument.


Faelan Maris wrote:
In fact, I am being overly kind there. You live in a society where the style of dress worn by the latest teen megasuperstar is more important to the average citizen than what your central government is doing, and where most of your people have the attention span of an infant.


Quote:
I will not claim that the Gallente live only in a media circus and little else, because I do bother to pay enough attention to realize that there is more to the Federation than just just the latest fashion trends, or blowhards spouting cultural megalomania while trampling over anything that cannot be condensed into a 15-second sound bite.


You realise that you're strongly contradicting yourself, and also being quite hypocritical where you label a society in the first quote while critising another (justifiably mind) for labelling themselves.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.

Seriphyn Inhonores
Elusenian Cooperative
#30 - 2011-10-19 00:15:36 UTC
Oh my goodness, this exploded rapidly and now it's all branched off in multiple different directions. Near-impossible to reply to. I recommend joining the New Eden Infosphere, by the way. Best venue for discussion, it appears, and I'm always willing to talk about such things there if anyone is interested (but apparently very few actually care to talk about the wider world outside the IGS). Seeing people's reactions, I might remind that this is just a GalNet forum; a far cry from reality, so don't flail around too much.
Alain Octirant
Doomheim
#31 - 2011-10-19 01:13:06 UTC
Faelan Maris wrote:

Quite predictable, boring words Captain Octirant.


If we insist on titles, it's Professor Octirant. Or Chairman Octirant. As you like.

Faelan Maris wrote:
You may enjoy your definition of "dynamicism", but it is strange to me to see so many people who claim to believe in "freedom" promptly turn around and deny the value of any opinion other than their own.


It's 'dynamism'.

Also, your definition of "Freedom" shows the lack of understanding that I would expect from someone who had never experienced it.


Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#32 - 2011-10-19 02:21:12 UTC
The State is a society. it is a nation. It only lacks a "government" according to one particular (narrow) interpretation of what a government should be. The fact that it uses different means to the same end - a successful society with its own territorial, technological and social distinctiveness - has no bearing on the fact that it nevertheless is more than just an economy with a flag. To claim as much is willful ignorance. In fact, the State has one government for each corporation, and the State can be thought of less as a nation and more as an alliance.

is it perfect? no. Neither is Democracy. The Empire and Republic certainly aren't perfect either. There can be no such thing in any field of human endeavour, and rightly so because while the search for perfection is an excellent motivator, if we were ever to find it we would have nowhere to go. The Federation is not perfect either. Neither is any other society.

The State is not insensitive to the will of its people. Market forces give every citizen a direct (albeit small) hand in controlling the direction and fate of their corporation. Just look at what happened to Caldari Steel's share prices on the day Tibus Heth came bounding out of obscurity. Shares can be purchased by the individuals with the wealth and will for them, or by groups without. Political interest groups hold minority shares in every major corporation in the State. I myself am a patron and donor to a number of Caldari political organisations, which in turn hold shares in a number of megacorps and subsidiaries.

We have centuries of history which we remember, and traditions which we keep alive. Culture, in other words. a sense of who we are and where we came from. What the hawkish elements in the Federation, people like Pilot Inhonores, are attempting to do is to dehumanize us. To deny that our society is valid, that it works for us even while we work for it. Well it is, and it does, whether or not such people like it.

We fought a bloody and expensive war to reclaim our right to live in a society of our choosing, defined by our laws, traditions and mode of thinking. We accepted the creation of an implacable enemy in the Federation as the price to pay for that emancipation. The Caldari fought for the right to make our own decisions. We claimed back the very freedom of choice that the Federation claims to represent, and claims that we deny our citizens. We fought for the right to let Caldari rule the Caldari, and for the right to make our own mistakes rather than have mistakes forced onto us by the senate in Villore.

Of course, that was then. The Federation has changed over the years, mellowing from the ultra-nationalist mood of the war era, through to the progressive policies of Souro Foiritain, and now veering back towards patriotic jingoism behind the banner of Jacus Roden.

WE do not hold the Federation to our standards. Relations between our factions would become much smoother if they stopped trying to hold the State to their standards.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
Stay Feral
#33 - 2011-10-19 02:29:19 UTC
I was hoping you'd turn up, Verin. It was time someone talked sense into this thread.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Altarr Orkot
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#34 - 2011-10-19 04:48:44 UTC
It seems to me that the 'problem' with the State is a xenophobic victim complex that permeates the minds of the 'Caldari'.

Almost any of the Caldari here will tell you that Caldari culture is rich and deep, founded on the principles of service, selflessness, loyalty and duty. Yet when the Federation put their trust in the Caldari to be an equal part of the Federation did we act selflessly? Did we carry ourselves with honour as loyal members of the Federation? The answer is no, the Caldari betrayed that trust to pursue selfish desires. When the Federation called us out on it, asked us to explain our actions, we blamed the Gallente, aghast at the implication that the Caldari people answered to anyone 'beneath' them.

When the Federation was plotting their course of action to take, peace with the new State was almost inevitable; it was not the Federation that wanted war, it was the Caldari perpetuated racial motivated attacks on Caldari Prime. But once the Caldari got their war it was again the Federation's fault.

And here we are today. Still attacking the Federation, still blaming them for all our woes, still pretending that they actually hate us. When Heth demanded change we still needed to blame someone for our problems; to blame someone for corrupting us 'pure Caldari'.

So we are now ruled by a racist, selfish tyrant; but perhaps there is merit in his ascent, perhaps he is truest reflection of Caldari ethno-supremacism to date. The Caldari people as a whole need to learn to truly respect others and realise not everyone is trying to tear us down from our own imaginary pedestal. We need to stop judging others on the basis of their DNA accept that, in truth, we are all brothers and sisters trying to survive in a lonely universe.
Dex Nederland
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
The Fourth District
#35 - 2011-10-19 05:29:20 UTC
Altarr Orkot wrote:
Yet when the Federation put their trust in the Caldari to be an equal part of the Federation did we act selflessly? Did we carry ourselves with honour as loyal members of the Federation? The answer is no, the Caldari betrayed that trust to pursue selfish desires. When the Federation called us out on it, asked us to explain our actions, we blamed the Gallente, aghast at the implication that the Caldari people answered to anyone 'beneath' them.


Trust works both ways.

The Federation was formed by the Gallente and Caldari. We trusted each other to be equal partners.

But we have different understanding of what equal means.

For a Caldari, it was to be a partnership of nations, cultures, or peoples. For a Gallente, equals meant each person equal to another before the laws of the partnership. These two definitions clash.

When interpreted by the Caldari, the Gallente version of equality is not equality, but proportionate power. To each nation, culture, or peoples proportionate rights, privileges, and power is given based on their population.

This was not equal partners in the eyes of a Caldari.

Did we carry ourselves as loyal members of the Federation? No, it was not an honorable equal partnership.

It was a proportionate agreement and the Caldari started out behind in a system established by those who were already the majority.

When the majority Gallente demanded why we did not tell them our every move, we addressed them as equals and said because we can.
Altarr Orkot
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#36 - 2011-10-19 08:08:27 UTC
Dex Nederland wrote:
Trust works both ways.

The Federation was formed by the Gallente and Caldari. We trusted each other to be equal partners.

But we have different understanding of what equal means.

For a Caldari, it was to be a partnership of nations, cultures, or peoples. For a Gallente, equals meant each person equal to another before the laws of the partnership. These two definitions clash.

When interpreted by the Caldari, the Gallente version of equality is not equality, but proportionate power. To each nation, culture, or peoples proportionate rights, privileges, and power is given based on their population.

This was not equal partners in the eyes of a Caldari.

Did we carry ourselves as loyal members of the Federation? No, it was not an honorable equal partnership.

It was a proportionate agreement and the Caldari started out behind in a system established by those who were already the majority.

When the majority Gallente demanded why we did not tell them our every move, we addressed them as equals and said because we can.


Different definitions of equal? I think they're very much the same except your definition implies equality of nations while the other is explicitly about the equality of people.

I'd ask if you think, that as founding members of the Federation, the Caldari people at the time somehow did not understand the nature of the Federation and what becoming a part of it entailed? It was never meant to be a partnership of separate nations doing their own thing and being nice to each other, it was to be a single, unified federation. I sincerely doubt anyone at the time was deluded into thinking otherwise.
Paul J Keating
The Light on the Hill
#37 - 2011-10-19 08:40:47 UTC
Desiderya wrote:
Like a voter is a political asset.
Corporations themselves are vessels to make a profit. Meritocracy means that this profit will benefit those that have worked for it. From the CEO to the most simple worker, the corporation will care and provide for their 'assets'. People take pride in the accomplishment of 'their' corporations, since they have ultimately been a part of that, as mall as it may have been.


A voter is typically not working for the person they vote for.
The meritocracy you speak of apparently still boils down to profit. So the cornerstone of Caldari society is... Profit? Forgive me, but I still don't see how this equates to all Caldari not being 'economic assets'.

Caellach Marellus wrote:
However that is purely discussion on the corporation system within the State (or to be fair, business in general) not a reflection of the people of the State.


Yes, but the difference is in the State nearly everyone is part of a corporation. Those who aren't are considered deviant outcasts.
Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2011-10-19 10:35:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Mekhana
Desiderya wrote:

Like a voter is a political asset.
Corporations themselves are vessels to make a profit. Meritocracy means that this profit will benefit those that have worked for it. From the CEO to the most simple worker, the corporation will care and provide for their 'assets'. People take pride in the accomplishment of 'their' corporations, since they have ultimately been a part of that, as mall as it may have been.


I hear a lot of Caldari saying that it's better to live in a meritocracy than living in poverty in the Federation. The thing is that financial status is earned very similarly in the Federation. The only difference we're far more concerned with the individualistic perspective (themselves, families and society) rather than their place of their employment, that in reality nothing more than their 'job'. The Gallente business model works differently. If the employee and the society prosper so will the businesses in the area.

If I stacked boxes in Fedmart for a living I'd not bring my work home with me, after all I'm not the CEO or even a Director and honestly they would not be paying me well enough to do so either.

The only difference we have social problems to help people cope with poverty and over here no matter who you were and what you done in the past you have a good opportunity to make it back to the top. Meanwhile if you get fired from your corporation in the Caldari State your life would be pretty much ruined unless you are a capsuleer obviously. Meanwhile in the Federation all you gotta do is to make a resume and send it to attractive employers then your can get on with your life, maybe even find yourself a better one.

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#39 - 2011-10-19 11:56:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Altarr Orko wrote:
Different definitions of equal? I think they're very much the same except your definition implies equality of nations while the other is explicitly about the equality of people.


Exactly.

I've always found it tragically poetic that the... alright, the second most bitter war in all of recorded human history took place over such a subtle difference of opinion.

As with the most bitter arguments, or with bits of grit in your boot, it's the smallest things that have the biggest impact.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#40 - 2011-10-19 12:01:51 UTC
A lot of problems wouldn't exist if people would just accept that others like to be different and leave each other alone.