Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Ah, so you missed the nigh inummerable parts where, prior to this thread posting, if people would mention that the Apoc could no longer fire it's guns for more than 55 seconds (remember, Rise started the battleship thread by savagely nerfing the Apoc's cap before he changed it back), his posts can be summed up with "Too bad! buffing beams would step on the toes of rails!". He's been trolling these threads for weeks, and I even got him to admit as much before he deleted/edited 3 or 4 of his own posts to hide that. His only interest, and he has stated it numerous times, it to make sure that Railguns stay as good as possible, for as long as possible. I don't see why his evident self interest is ok, when he decries it so thoroughly in others. If I seem angry, it's because I've long since tired of his hypocrisy.

Now as for this:



I pretty well explained why it's laughable below, in the part I'd wager you hadn't read. You two don't seem to get it. Stop getting upset if Beams start to horn in on the territory of Railguns.

They are the exact same weapon anyway. Already mentioned this, but it goes Missiles/Arty for alpha, and Beam/Rails for sustained dps. They go in the same category, it just so happens that one has hideous drawbacks that render it unusable, and one doesn't. (hey, just like Missiles and Arty! although Missiles are in a better state than beams)

Yeah, they don't have enough defining characteristics to separate them from one another.

But I don't care.



You miss the point, as Bouh has repeatedly. Although his is either on purpose to troll me, or because he's just stupid.

I haven't really offered any solutions beyond actually starting a dialogue that this needs reworked.

My whole damn point in the first place, is to get them into being actually within a reasonable margin of being able to be fit and fired. We can't even start to talk about balance until we can actually bolt the blasted things onto our hulls without giving up half a dozen slots to fitting and cap, plus rigs.

Also, answer the question I posed to you in my last post. How is it "very easy to end up obsoleting rails", as you say?

What you guys are saying is both obvious and a strawman like all of Bouh's "issues" he brings up which is why most have stopped responding. No one is proposing changes to beams that make them so OP that no one touches Rails. Do you really think more differentiate Blasters and Pulses than Rails and Beams? So if beams were made fittable and firable there is absolutely zero evidence other than in both your imaginations that this would cause Rails to no longer be used.

Right now small and medium beams are on Amarr hulls with around 70% bonuses to cap and regen, and there's no evidence that beams are dominating while rails are floundering in these categories.

I believe the Rokh's current popularity has more to do with a huge shield tank plus extreme range than anything having to do with Rails or they would just use Arty ships. If these bonuses were on an Amarr hull then we would see at least some fleets fit a PG mod and cap boosters (the current "tax" of beam weapons) at least sometimes, but we do not.

Er... yes, much more. Blasters and Pulse are a world apart, relative to beams and rails. I'd be amazed to see someone argue otherwise.



As evidence I offer you the dominance of the rail Rokh on the fleet scale over beam BS. The rail Rokh is used because it's better than the beam option at doing a specific job - projecting DPS over long ranges. If the beams option was better, then this situation would be reversed and the fleet Rokh would become extinct.

Indeed, there is further evidence for this in terms of old-style sniper BS, when the TachyPoc obsoleted the rail Rokh. In both cases, it's a question of two too-similar weapons doing the same job, competing for the same niche - whichever is better will be used, while the other is discarded as obsolete. Hence the over-riding necessity to differentiate the two weapons systems to prevent one dominating the other. Artillery has got it right, because it doesn't try to compete in terms of DPS but offers something different. You need to make beams offer something different, to make it as distinct from rails as distinct as beams and artillery.



You need to care. Seriously, do it properly or not at all.

We're talking about them because large beams and large rails are effectively the same weapon system but with different names, because they compete for the same niche. I'm thoroughly sympathetic to the need to make beams and beam BS better - certainly the cap and fitting requirements are excessive - but I don't think it's possible to balance beams with rails successfully without additional changes that differentiate them from each other.

I'm surprised that you're objecting to this so much, surely you could think of some hilarious OP ideas for Beams, based on the need to differentiate them?

In fact, beams are already the best LR weapon to shoot at shorter ranges (bellow 60km). The problem is that pulse laser are already in this niche.

That is the problem I'm trying to show since the begining.

A solution I proposed (evethough I doubt that would be enough to make them attractive) would be to buff their tracking a lot more and bring them close to pulse. They would, then, be the continuation of pulse and could be considered for the 40-60km range with the ability to hit farther with good damage application.

Still impossible to fit T2 tachyons on Apoc because of low CPU, now enough powergreed for them, but without deadspace modules or implants for CPU (usually only caldari race use them) imposible to fit T2 tachyons and possible to fit on tier 3 bc...so what you change is equal like you didn't change anything.

Thanks for making everyone in this thread's point. CPU mod and PG rig plus whatever cap mods are still required just to fit and fire weapons and you're still stuck with no prop and a buffer tank. This is at the BS level while the ABC can do it easily. Yep everything is fine.