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[Odyssey] Large Energy Turrets

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Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#721 - 2013-05-06 14:28:22 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

Nice fit.... I see you glossed over the fact that it has 1:34 or there abouts cap life at current stats. Add in the reduction and that might get up to 2 minutes. Of course, it also requires perfect Lvl V fitting skills to do that without a PG mod, and is using the SECOND BEST lasers.

If you compare fitting requirements, tracking, and damage and look at how these things compare for the medium and small weapon it is blindingly obvious that this is the correct comparison.
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#722 - 2013-05-06 14:37:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Deerin
Avald Midular wrote:

Can you post your "compariable" Mega fit? I'm calling BS on not being able to fit something that outperforms even before the 2 minute cap life for the Abaddon. There's no way this fit wins against any similarly fit 1400 Arty fit so calling whatever that fit is "compariable" isn't really fair, all the Mael has to do it outlive the cap. We are also complaining here and in the Amarr BS thread that they are shoehorned into buffer tanking every time due to fitting and I noticed your build goes right along with that.

When it's twice as bad on Amarr due to mega-beams drawing 5.8 GJ a second while firing plus the MWD, it is a comparison point. If your fit is so good why don't we see it on TQ? Current fleet doctrines include Rokh fleets with rail and Arty Abaddons, but no mega-beams or tach's. Apparently calling it balanced when it has a 2 minute firing life isn't so appropriate.


[Megathron, Rail Mega]
Damage Control II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800

425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L

Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I

5 Slot armor DMG mods rest mwd cap booster tc sb...pretty straight forward...didn't even work on optimizing.

The fantasy world where 1400mm mael and megabaddon are sitting at optimals 1v1 and firing at each other is not New Eden. But even in that fantasy world beambaddon has higher dps with higher buffer and enough cap to burn maels buffer down.

I find it really hillarious how gallanteans are crying that their "Active tanked" ships are crap while amarrians are crying about being "shoehorned" into buffer fits...

You don't see this in TQ because.....it doesn't fit and uses MUCH more cap in current build. It is an odyssey fit. It reflects upcoming changes.

Firing time is quite low for all BS's when they turn on MWD. Abaddon, Mega and Rokh can run weapons as long as they have cap booster charges, when mwd is off.
With MWD on:
1:38 for megabaddon
2:13 for mael *
2:46 for rokh
2:49 for mega

*Mael has no cap booster. With cap booster it goes as long as it has charges. But fitting a cap booster sacrifices a lot of EHP.

Now....I symphatize with pleas of making these guns more usable...but apparently CCP did take things into consideration and what they are proposing seems work on paper. We'll see if they actually work when the changes hit SiSi.

PS: Nice edit while I'm typing :P
Jill Antaris
Jill's Open Incursion Corp
#723 - 2013-05-06 16:16:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Jill Antaris
Deerin wrote:
I find it really hillarious how gallanteans are crying that their "Active tanked" ships are crap while amarrians are crying about being "shoehorned" into buffer fits...P


The grass is always greener on the other side, I guess.

Cap problems on amarr hulls are far less serious as it looks in eft, since you hardly use mwd with the abaddon outside faster aligning, approaching the gate or leaving a bubble, because it is a slow brick and got plenty of range. Also as long you use the cap boosters around capacitor peak recharge, guns cycle between targets instead running non stop and there is the option to press the "need capacitor button", while flying in a gang that takes advantage of the amarr fleet concept, it hardly is a big issue. Amarr hulls actually can decently active tank once you think about a sane scenario with puls and hybrid tank(single rep + plate) instead of active tanking a beam setup.

That new mega got to much cpu anyway(hilarious if you think about it as the mega and raven where the most cpu gimped BS for years for balance reasons) and will be probably nerfed.

@Rise not a real fan of removing the cap bonus on so many hulls. While it doesn't represent the most useful bonus in a fleet engagement, it can often be the equivalent of 1-2 slots for pve, it makes mwding kite fittings possible(side note omen still needs a better cap) and was a balance concept for amarr for years. Maybe it is just me but since the caldari/gallente/hybrid buff, it seams to me that CCP is simply sanding off the rough edges of races/weapon systems instead actually reworking or bring in new core mechanics to make all races as diverse and different as possible in her tactics and play styles.

Edit: on the beam buff, I think the bigger issue of beams is that 150km+ sniper setups are less useful today because of probes and sniper hacs are less useful because of tier 3 BCs. This 2 things where pretty much the only two things where beams got used in pvp and maybe because we can use close range weapons up to extreme long ranges, what makes them, different to other races also pretty solid fleet weapons. As for the cap buff for beams, it is pretty much ok, for puls I think it is not really this needed(at least if you stop butcher the cap bonuses on every hull).
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#724 - 2013-05-06 22:43:12 UTC
Jill Antaris wrote:
Deerin wrote:
I find it really hillarious how gallanteans are crying that their "Active tanked" ships are crap while amarrians are crying about being "shoehorned" into buffer fits...P


The grass is always greener on the other side, I guess.

Cap problems on amarr hulls are far less serious as it looks in eft, since you hardly use mwd with the abaddon outside faster aligning, approaching the gate or leaving a bubble, because it is a slow brick and got plenty of range. Also as long you use the cap boosters around capacitor peak recharge, guns cycle between targets instead running non stop and there is the option to press the "need capacitor button", while flying in a gang that takes advantage of the amarr fleet concept, it hardly is a big issue. Amarr hulls actually can decently active tank once you think about a sane scenario with puls and hybrid tank(single rep + plate) instead of active tanking a beam setup.

That new mega got to much cpu anyway(hilarious if you think about it as the mega and raven where the most cpu gimped BS for years for balance reasons) and will be probably nerfed.

@Rise not a real fan of removing the cap bonus on so many hulls. While it doesn't represent the most useful bonus in a fleet engagement, it can often be the equivalent of 1-2 slots for pve, it makes mwding kite fittings possible(side note omen still needs a better cap) and was a balance concept for amarr for years. Maybe it is just me but since the caldari/gallente/hybrid buff, it seams to me that CCP is simply sanding off the rough edges of races/weapon systems instead actually reworking or bring in new core mechanics to make all races as diverse and different as possible in her tactics and play styles.

Edit: on the beam buff, I think the bigger issue of beams is that 150km+ sniper setups are less useful today because of probes and sniper hacs are less useful because of tier 3 BCs. This 2 things where pretty much the only two things where beams got used in pvp and maybe because we can use close range weapons up to extreme long ranges, what makes them, different to other races also pretty solid fleet weapons. As for the cap buff for beams, it is pretty much ok, for puls I think it is not really this needed(at least if you stop butcher the cap bonuses on every hull).



You need to read the amarr battleship rebalance thread to find out why your assumptions are wrong.

Amarr are not in a good place at the moment and are outperformed by the other races that don't need friends to give them cap in a battle.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#725 - 2013-05-07 00:19:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Avald Midular
Jill Antaris wrote:

Cap problems on amarr hulls are far less serious as it looks in eft, since you hardly use mwd with the abaddon outside faster aligning, approaching the gate or leaving a bubble, because it is a slow brick and got plenty of range.


Sorry I don't find trying to talk away 42% less firing time convincing to me nor is trying to say it isn't a big issue. I know you're not pulsing the MWD full-time but it only serves to accentuate the cap problems for beams. The fact that mega-beams take the same amount of cap as tach's is obviously broken and should be fixed.

Jill Antaris wrote:
Amarr hulls actually can decently active tank once you think about a sane scenario with puls and hybrid tank(single .


Why is pulse/active sane and beam/active insane and why isn't the pilot given the option like other races? Like the above, you're trying to talk away a choice given to other races but not to Amarr as "fine" when it isn't.
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#726 - 2013-05-07 00:30:15 UTC
Deerin wrote:

The fantasy world where 1400mm mael and megabaddon are sitting at optimals 1v1 and firing at each other is not New Eden. But even in that fantasy world beambaddon has higher dps with higher buffer and enough cap to burn maels buffer down.


Why would the mael fight in optimal and not kite in falloff since he can run his MWD and is faster regardless.

Deerin wrote:

I find it really hillarious how gallanteans are crying that their "Active tanked" ships are crap while amarrians are crying about being "shoehorned" into buffer fits...


At least give each race a choice. Not every Gallente ship has the active bonus but every Amarr ship has the "fitting penalty" of buffer tanking which is fine for blobs not so much for solo.

Deerin wrote:

You don't see this in TQ because.....it doesn't fit and uses MUCH more cap in current build. It is an odyssey fit. It reflects upcoming changes.


I meant mega-beam or tach fits in general. They're pretty much relegated to Oracles and Nightmares and if this is the best fit that is opened up by Odyssey then I don't see that changing.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#727 - 2013-05-07 00:34:41 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
Amarr are not in a good place at the moment and are outperformed by the other races that don't need friends to give them cap in a battle.

Could you be more specific ? Because I don't see a lot of cases where amarr BS will be outperformed by any other races ships.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#728 - 2013-05-07 00:39:21 UTC
Avald Midular wrote:
Why is pulse/active sane and beam/active insane ?.

Because if you have long range weapon and something is able to shoot back to you, no local tank will save you. Why do you think ABC are that good ? That's obviously not because of their tank...

LR weapons with local active tank only live in pve. There is absolutely not a single scenario where that can be better than a buffer in pvp.
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#729 - 2013-05-07 01:34:57 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Avald Midular wrote:
Why is pulse/active sane and beam/active insane ?.

Because if you have long range weapon and something is able to shoot back to you, no local tank will save you. Why do you think ABC are that good ? That's obviously not because of their tank...

LR weapons with local active tank only live in pve. There is absolutely not a single scenario where that can be better than a buffer in pvp.


I wasn't sure he was framing it as a pvp-only thing since he brought up PvE a couple sentences later.
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#730 - 2013-05-07 07:05:15 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:

Amarr are not in a good place at the moment and are outperformed by the other races that don't need friends to give them cap in a battle.
You must mean by drones boats (ha, ha), missile boats (PvP Raven? Yeah, right), and gunboats (I'll give you this, but only because of alpha Maels - gun DPS isn't great), because blaster and rail BS run low of cap fast enough. Oh, wait, all the others do too, or have all races except the Amarr invented capless MWDs?
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#731 - 2013-05-07 12:56:28 UTC
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:

Amarr are not in a good place at the moment and are outperformed by the other races that don't need friends to give them cap in a battle.
You must mean by drones boats (ha, ha), missile boats (PvP Raven? Yeah, right), and gunboats (I'll give you this, but only because of alpha Maels - gun DPS isn't great), because blaster and rail BS run low of cap fast enough. Oh, wait, all the others do too, or have all races except the Amarr invented capless MWDs?



If all races run out of cap then it's even crueler that Amarr guns run on triple the cap as the next guy, thanks for making our point. They're running out of cap doing things that Amarr don't get the choice in doing, like MWD or active tanking.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#732 - 2013-05-07 13:28:13 UTC
Avald Midular wrote:
If all races run out of cap then it's even crueler that Amarr guns run on triple the cap as the next guy, thanks for making our point. They're running out of cap doing things that Amarr don't get the choice in doing, like MWD or active tanking.

Some people want godly tracking high dps railguns. They don't have them. A LOT of people want longer range blasters, they don't have them. A LOT of people want resist bonuses instead of active tanking bonuses, and they don't have it either. And they even shouldn't have any of these, because that's part of what define races identity.

And yes, amarr identity is having cap trouble to fire their guns, and being immovable but undestroyable armor bricks. Gallente identity is to run after there target only to be able to shoot at them while sporting an armor tank, which is a paradox for a lot of people. Caldari identity is to shoot from far away, and that's it. And minmatar identity is to go fast so they can run away from everything they face because everything is more specialized than their autocanons.

When you factored in all these identities, you realize that most complaints of EVE players lead to homogenization, because they mostly want to remove the inherant drawbacks of races.

Balancing is not removing these drawbacks, balancing is to make them workable in the scenarios the ship is supposed to work. And currently, there is no reason to think that a mega beams Abaddon or Apocalypse won't work.

Also, the MWD on amarr BS is only here to fast align and go out of a buble. You never use it in any other case, half because you don't need to, and half because you don't have to. Gallente BS on the other hand need to run their MWD for prolonged time only to be able to fire at their target. There is the balance. Gallente don't get the choice but to run their MWD. Amarr don't need to.
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#733 - 2013-05-07 13:36:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Avald Midular
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Avald Midular wrote:
If all races run out of cap then it's even crueler that Amarr guns run on triple the cap as the next guy, thanks for making our point. They're running out of cap doing things that Amarr don't get the choice in doing, like MWD or active tanking.

Some people want godly tracking high dps railguns. They don't have them. A LOT of people want longer range blasters, they don't have them. A LOT of people want resist bonuses instead of active tanking bonuses, and they don't have it either. And they even shouldn't have any of these, because that's part of what define races identity.

And yes, amarr identity is having cap trouble to fire their guns, and being immovable but undestroyable armor bricks. Gallente identity is to run after there target only to be able to shoot at them while sporting an armor tank, which is a paradox for a lot of people. Caldari identity is to shoot from far away, and that's it. And minmatar identity is to go fast so they can run away from everything they face because everything is more specialized than their autocanons.

When you factored in all these identities, you realize that most complaints of EVE players lead to homogenization, because they mostly want to remove the inherant drawbacks of races.

Balancing is not removing these drawbacks, balancing is to make them workable in the scenarios the ship is supposed to work. And currently, there is no reason to think that a mega beams Abaddon or Apocalypse won't work.

Also, the MWD on amarr BS is only here to fast align and go out of a buble. You never use it in any other case, half because you don't need to, and half because you don't have to. Gallente BS on the other hand need to run their MWD for prolonged time only to be able to fire at their target. There is the balance. Gallente don't get the choice but to run their MWD. Amarr don't need to.


You keep bringing up these big picture things that no one is proposing on changing and yet you keep posting. This is the last time I'll respond to any of them.

The fact that mega-beams take the same cap draw as tachyon's is broken. The tracking and dps differences in lasers don't come close to overcoming their huge PG fitting and cap drawbacks and hence nobody uses them. Fleets do use rail and arty alpha doctrines so their drawbacks don't seem to be stopping anyone. People use Scorch and Arties on Amarr BS's, and Tach's are relegated to the Oracle, this is a broken picture and we are proposing changes to fix them.
Jill Antaris
Jill's Open Incursion Corp
#734 - 2013-05-07 13:57:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Jill Antaris
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
You need to read the amarr battleship rebalance thread to find out why your assumptions are wrong.

Amarr are not in a good place at the moment and are outperformed by the other races that don't need friends to give them cap in a battle.


Well I tried to read the last 20 pages, and it mostly consists of personal attacks, role play kind of balancing ideas or opinions that sound ridiculous. Damage bonus + 10% optimal on a apoc for example, that is 700+ dps @ 100km optimal with close range turrets. We actually had 100km optimal apocs before and it was one of the main reasons why CCP made optimal and falloff rigs stack with TC.

The only problem I see is the crippling cap issue on the apoc for 80-100km puls engagements, that require mwding around.

While the Armageddon gets a new role, it becomes quite useful this way and was kind of redundant with the abaddon since it's introduction. The abaddon basically stays the same, so not much to see here.

Avald Midular wrote:
Jill Antaris wrote:

Cap problems on amarr hulls are far less serious as it looks in eft, since you hardly use mwd with the abaddon outside faster aligning, approaching the gate or leaving a bubble, because it is a slow brick and got plenty of range.


Sorry I don't find trying to talk away 42% less firing time convincing to me nor is trying to say it isn't a big issue. I know you're not pulsing the MWD full-time but it only serves to accentuate the cap problems for beams. The fact that mega-beams take the same amount of cap as tach's is obviously broken and should be fixed.


When was the last time you actually did run out of cap with your abaddon in a gang fight from firing your guns?

Avald Midular wrote:
Jill Antaris wrote:
Amarr hulls actually can decently active tank once you think about a sane scenario with puls and hybrid tank(single .


Why is pulse/active sane and beam/active insane and why isn't the pilot given the option like other races? Like the above, you're trying to talk away a choice given to other races but not to Amarr as "fine" when it isn't.


Because every active tank in pvp uses short range guns/missiles(except for HM fittings), for fitting and dps reasons. How often are active tanking artillery and rail ships actually used in pvp? For pve armarr with close range guns vastly outperforms rail and CM fittings(that can fit active tank with long range guns) at nearly any relevant range for pve and we even got 2 platforms that provide the ability to active tank with a tachyon setup(both work pretty good actually).
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#735 - 2013-05-07 22:35:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Avald Midular
Jill Antaris wrote:

When was the last time you actually did run out of cap with your abaddon in a gang fight from firing your guns?


You usually don't let yourself run out, but warping off and recharging or having to station up to get more cap boosters after every fight isn't what weapon cap use should be balanced around as the Amarr "drawback" when none of the other races' drawbacks are nearly as constricting.

The Abaddon may not need the MWD unless he's pulse and is being ranged, but the Apoc certainly does and it's fitting is just as constricting as the Abaddon for no reason. CCP Rise says he wants to open the Apoc up to more beam use in the OP but taking away 50% cap use and only giving back 30'ish% in relief isn't going to help that. Giving it a 6 turret setup with a damage bonus instead of the useless (for beams) tracking bonus would have helped on cap a lot more.
John 1135
#736 - 2013-05-08 07:44:21 UTC
Jill Antaris wrote:
The abaddon basically stays the same, so not much to see here.

Several posters have made the point that Amarr BS' don't need to move around much because they are bricks. That is changing. The Abaddon is losing about a fifth of its resilience under fire. And CCP seem to have a plan that all BS' will move around more. So it is foreseeable that MWD and AB use will play a greater role after Odyssey. Frankly Odyssey feels like a cross-the-board nerf to Amarr ships, with few exceptions.

Which is funny, since I haven't heard anyone arguing that Amarr ships are imba. They don't feature highly in doctrines. Etcet.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#737 - 2013-05-08 09:52:11 UTC
John 1135 wrote:
Jill Antaris wrote:
The abaddon basically stays the same, so not much to see here.

Several posters have made the point that Amarr BS' don't need to move around much because they are bricks. That is changing. The Abaddon is losing about a fifth of its resilience under fire. And CCP seem to have a plan that all BS' will move around more. So it is foreseeable that MWD and AB use will play a greater role after Odyssey. Frankly Odyssey feels like a cross-the-board nerf to Amarr ships, with few exceptions.

Which is funny, since I haven't heard anyone arguing that Amarr ships are imba. They don't feature highly in doctrines. Etcet.

A fifth = 20%. You should review your maths IMO, because 5% less resistance absolutely not mean 20% less resilience under fire.

And I'd like top know what will make MWD and AB more important than before, and I hardly see how that will hit amarr laser ship considering their range...
John 1135
#738 - 2013-05-08 14:05:27 UTC  |  Edited by: John 1135
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
A fifth = 20%. You should review your maths IMO, because 5% less resistance absolutely not mean 20% less resilience under fire.

And I'd like top know what will make MWD and AB more important than before, and I hardly see how that will hit amarr laser ship considering their range...

My maths is correct. The change to consider is the increase in damage let through, not the decrease in resist percentage. DPS let through is what impacts resilience.

For example, if you were hitting 70% resist pre-nerf, and will hit 65% post, you have gone from letting through 30% of damage to letting through 35%, for a ~17% increase in DPS taken. Many of the affected ships will have higher than 70% resists pre-nerf of course, like the Devoter (which into the bargain can't be repped while doing its job). They're hit harder.

Factored together with the dynamics of repping a fair estimate is that these ships are losing at least a fifth of their resilience under fire: perhaps more.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#739 - 2013-05-08 14:37:34 UTC
John 1135 wrote:
My maths is correct. The change to consider is the increase in damage let through, not the decrease in resist percentage. DPS let through is what impacts resilience.

For example, if you were hitting 70% resist pre-nerf, and will hit 65% post, you have gone from letting through 30% of damage to letting through 35%, for a ~17% increase in DPS taken. Many of the affected ships will have higher than 70% resists pre-nerf of course, like the Devoter (which into the bargain can't be repped while doing its job). They're hit harder.

Factored together with the dynamics of repping a fair estimate is that these ships are losing at least a fifth of their resilience under fire: perhaps more.

Even your bad example show an increase of less 20%.

And if your example is bad, it's because 5% less resist in the damage bonus does not translate into 5% overall resist loss for the ship.

For example, a hellcat Abaddon will lose ~3% overall resist on ~70-80% resists, which mean 10 to 15% damage more than before.

And ships with low base resists will lose more than T2 ships, because the gap with 100% is higher so the resistance modules have higher effects. In the end, it will be, in the worse case, a 15% taken damages increase.

Yet, is this stat worth considering ?

For example, the Abaddon will only lose 5% ehp, and still have 10% more than an armor ship with no resist bonus (and 40% than the Maelstrom, but this one is not that robust).

So in fact you just extracted the highest number you have found to make it appear huge IMO.

And last but not least, that is the objective of the nerf. But this is more related to the resist nerf thread.
Veinnail
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#740 - 2013-05-08 15:20:09 UTC
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