Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Well, that would be the part where I mentioned that they need to be looked at in regards to their overall stats and their ammo.

Furthermore, if the sky is falling for you that badly from what I suggested, consider the fact that they've already gone halfway that far in just the changes on this thread. I simply want that extended. And, unless I miss my guess, it would still have about 52 seconds less cap life than a Rokh in that instance. But you are comparing your resist ship with our sniper. Compare it to the Abaddon, and notice the difference. The Apoc is all about damage projection, so yeah the Rokh probably loses in that category. (also, how does a spare midslot translate to more dps?)

Also, I entirely disagree with your assessment about the distances at which tracking is worth it.

That equation depends entirely on the speed, size, and transversal of the target ship. They're not just going to burn toward you for 100km while you pound on them. They are going to align, warp to a safe, probe you out, and drop right on top of you.

I explained a few posts after the one you quoted that a sniper style fleet, and by extensions long range weapons, are a binary equation. Either you can pop them at a distance when they are at low velocity/transversal, in which case one tracking computer worth of a radian per second doesn't help at all.

Or they are under your guns, and one tracking computer worth of tracking bonus isn't going to help you either.

It doesn't do anything. And even if it did, it's basically one midslot worth of bonus, in exchange for 3+ fitting slots to make up for the drawbacks. Which is why people just don't use it. No circumstances where it's worth it.

Sorry maybe I'm misunderstanding, but if you switch to short range ammo, even with a TC, aren't you below the range of the mega-beam but above in dps so our discussion is moot right?

Even if what you say is true or any pilot believes it to be true, all it is is a single mid-slot TC to resolve for the Rokh versus the PG mod + 3-4 midslot/rig cap mods for the Abaddon/Apoc pilot.

If the Rokh drop a mid slot, its tank will fall greatly.

...and at least 2 of the 3 if not all the rigs devoted to CCC's or weapon cap. Remember this mid-slot for the Rokh is only if he believes that tracking as good as beams is worth it which we're still saying is very much not.

Well said.

The same tradeoff people aren't making with beams. If Tach's were so OP and Mega-Beams so balanced compared to other weapons, people would fit a PG mod and fit the Tach's since they're the same cap usage. People are overwhelmingly NOT using either weapon, so lets drop the facade that beam fittings aren't horribly unbalanced (small, medium, and large) even with these tweaks.

I had to get his last statement first, because it was the funniest. Seriously, check this out.



Not with fits like you were posting earlier, you didn't. Unless your fitting skills (your literal ones, not your skillpoints) have actually gotten worse the longer you have played (I'd believe it, from what I know of you), then I am pretty sure you couldn't manage to do L3s with fits like that and noob skills.



It actually means precisely that. Like I keep telling you, long range guns are a binary equation. Either you are fighting from a position of strength, in which case it doesn't matter, or you aren't, and they are under your guns anyway. The only other option is that they are fighting rats, which doesn't count for about a dozen reasons.



At that range, not only should you already be aligning and warping before they get in point range, but it's also not even true. The Abaddon cannot afford to waste shots like that, it can only fire about 45 shots on it's own before it doesn't even have enough cap to warp. It's not like the extra tracking lets you keep on blazing away in hopes of getting a lucky low TR shot.


Once again, you reveal yourself and your true position. You are just here to defend railguns against any possible competition. With those statements, you just said "Well, one of them has to suck, and you're already used to it, so I'd rather it still be you." Even if this were true this is a disgusting attitude towards game balance. You don't give one dead rat's ass about game balance, you are just trying to make sure your piece of the pie stays as large as possible. It's the same kind of small minded, adversarial mindset that causes all the "nullsec vs highsec" nonsense.

They are SUPPOSED to be a competitive option. Otherwise you might as well remove them from the game.



So, a meaningless amount of cap use reduction, and a slight lowering of how much power they take, suddenly they become equal to your precious railguns? If I didn't already know you were just spouting off, I'd know it now.

You have a cap booster if you want to warp. And what I meant is really this : if your target is moving, the Rokh will not do max dps, and it will drop bellow Beam Abaddon dps. Just look at the dps curves.

Define competitive please. Because a weapon being strait better than the other don't allow for competition.

BTW, I care about beams a lot more than you care about railguns as it seems. What would be best : obsoleting something working just to make something not working working again ? Or find a real solution to fix beams without breaking railguns ?

I already proposed some solutions, but you were probably hinding my posts at that time, so I will be kind enough to state it again :
The problem of beams is that they are designed to work in the same ranges than pulse laser. So, at ranges bellow 60km, pulse are plain better, and at range above 60km, railguns are better (because they are designed to work at longer ranges).

The selling point of beams is that they can shoot in the largest width of engagements of all weapons, because they have the best tracking and the best dps of all LR weapons. The problem is that players don't have a clue about how tracking impact their dps along range and, on top of that, prefer specialization over versatility. Hence, because beams are not better than anything to shoot immobile target at any ranges (and because of the difficulties of fitting which will be solved), they are not used.

So the only solution to make beams used is to give them a purpose. Of course, you do repurpose railguns, but then a crowd of gallente and caldari fanatics would momentarily join together to burn you, because railguns are the iconic long range weapon.

So, as I was saying, you could repurpose beams, but that would need a good idea, or you could make some place for them. The only place you can make is between 50 and 80km, because otherwise pulse and railguns would see their noche narrowed too much IMO. For this, you need to nerf scorch (or mega pulse range) and buff mega beams range.

Or, you need a repurpose of beams, but I have no idea for that, and the best I can think of is to further specialize them in their tracking role by increasing their tracking to the level of scorch pulse (which is ~50% tracking buff), increase their dps a bit (10%) and decrease their range a bit (10%, to offset the damage buff). They would then be more competitive with pulse at lower range (30-60km) and be the best to hit anything flying above these ranges. They would then have a purpose (high tracking weapon) without obsoleting railguns (still lower dps at ranges above 70km).

So....
Lets just take the 18% DPS you are so worked up on.

Most ships with a bonus to their racial weapon have a 25% DPS bonus.

So......
Any ship with a bonus to rails would get more DPS from rails than lasers, Rail ships will stay rail ships, you won't suddenly see Rokh's fitting Tachyons.

Not sure why you are getting so worked up, given everyone is saying Tachyons should still have some trouble to fit, just not the current crazyness. Rails will still get plenty of use.

Y'know, I used to be all "Bouh is a complete idiot". Then I realized that he has some points.

And then I realized the most important thing.

They can't really do anything to beams of all sizes to make them worth using over pulses with scorch in almost every scenario without completely breaking beams. And they can't nerf scorch to put beams in a place where a minor adjustment could make them useful without ruining pulses. So they're stuck until they do a complete revamp of energy turrets.

As Bouh says here:




Basically, you can buff beams ridiculously, and make them break rails, you can change rails and then have to change beams too, you can nerf pulses (because they are so OP /sarcasm) so beams are actually useful over pulses at some ranges, or you can... well, puzzle out something for beams to do.

As far as this current bandaid, I wouldn't be against a 15%/30%/15% to the attributes myself, just as a QoL buff, but this is supposed to be a bandaid, and this isn't how they want to fix things.

And let me just say: I'm really glad I'm not the one who has to fix it, because they have their work cut out for them.