These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Odyssey] Large Energy Turrets

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#661 - 2013-05-04 00:55:43 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Jaina Doombringer wrote:
BTW no one wanted Beams to be capstable till the end of time. Just a little bit easier on the fitting and capuse.

And you just got what you wanted !! Just read the first post of this thread !

I even showed fits. You may not like them, but they should work just fine.

Except it's still not enough to make them worth using. That's the part you don't seem to get.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#662 - 2013-05-04 01:01:44 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
[Except it's still not enough to make them worth using. That's the part you don't seem to get.

What do they need then ? That the answer nobody ever gave.

What is enough ? And how do you find it ? What is the reasoning behind the value you all want ? How this fit in the grand scheme of things ?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#663 - 2013-05-04 01:15:04 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
[Except it's still not enough to make them worth using. That's the part you don't seem to get.

What do they need then ? That the answer nobody ever gave.

What is enough ? And how do you find it ? What is the reasoning behind the value you all want ? How this fit in the grand scheme of things ?


I gave it to you several times. You have ignored me for the purpose of continuing to troll us.

They are currently at around 200% PG and 300% cap use.

I'd like to have them down to 150% PG and 200% cap use from what they are.

They also need to be looked at with regards to their ammo and overall stats.

Because on long range guns, as I have repeatedly mentioned now, tracking is nigh unto worthless as a bonus.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#664 - 2013-05-04 04:05:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Avald Midular
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
[Except it's still not enough to make them worth using. That's the part you don't seem to get.

What do they need then ? That the answer nobody ever gave.

What is enough ? And how do you find it ? What is the reasoning behind the value you all want ? How this fit in the grand scheme of things ?


The Amarr pilot trying to fit beams should have to face the same level of tradeoffs as a Gallente pilot fitting rails. Right now the Gallente pilot (Hype or Mega) faces none when fitting 425's, MWD, Cap Booster, and a Repper whereas the Abaddon/Apoc pilot can't even fit his 2nd best weapon plus a MWD and Cap Booster (or MWD + Repper) without a PG mod. Even ignoring the massive cap disadvantage for the Amarr pilot, that is ridiculous and broken any way you look at it.
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#665 - 2013-05-04 04:07:31 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
[Except it's still not enough to make them worth using. That's the part you don't seem to get.

What do they need then ? That the answer nobody ever gave.

What is enough ? And how do you find it ? What is the reasoning behind the value you all want ? How this fit in the grand scheme of things ?


Those fits were terrible and nothing like a fit any other race would have to make to fit their weapons and make them work. 2 PG and 6 cap mods are required by no other race's BS to make them work. That is the entire point.
Naso Aya
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#666 - 2013-05-04 07:04:42 UTC
I think a better comparison would be Projectiles to Lasers- one of rails pluses (in my eyes) is that you can slap em willy nilly on any ship and have plenty of PWG at least leftover. Less so for CPU, but still room to play around.

Even assuming that, though, we're still about 8% off from having Tach's on par with 1400mm Arty.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#667 - 2013-05-04 11:35:38 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
[quote=Bouh Revetoile]They are currently at around 200% PG and 300% cap use.

I'd like to have them down to 150% PG and 200% cap use from what they are.

These are random numbers. Why 150% PG and 200% cap ? What will that allow appart from making you sleep better when you see the numbers until you awake one day and think them too high again ?

Have you ever tried to make a gallente BS good for LT armor fleet ? They are garbage for this even without fitting mods. That's why I'm asking for comparisons.

As for the fit I showed, please tell me how bad they are. Because I'd say they are very good, and that would be as argumented as your moaning. The plated beam baddon is basically a Hellcat with beams and everything you can ask from a mega beam ship, and the pve one will do the work without problems. So what don't suit you appart from stupid request like "the ship should be able to fit everything regardless of its performances" ?

What performances your requests are aiming for ? Buff and nerf have effect in the reality of the game, and you completely ignore them and think like if there was only amarr ships in the game. That's not how you balance things. Where do you want amarr ships to be between the other ships ?

You are completely disconected from the reality of the game and only look from your amarr perspective. As I said countless of times, the internal differences between ships don't matter as long as they perform good in the game. And yes, beams don't perform good, but what do you want them to be ? I'm not talking about cap or fitting, I'm talking about the effect of these : what the changes you are requesting will allow ?
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#668 - 2013-05-04 13:00:58 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
[quote=Bouh Revetoile]They are currently at around 200% PG and 300% cap use.

I'd like to have them down to 150% PG and 200% cap use from what they are.

These are random numbers. Why 150% PG and 200% cap ? What will that allow appart from making you sleep better when you see the numbers until you awake one day and think them too high again ?

Have you ever tried to make a gallente BS good for LT armor fleet ? They are garbage for this even without fitting mods. That's why I'm asking for comparisons.

As for the fit I showed, please tell me how bad they are. Because I'd say they are very good, and that would be as argumented as your moaning. The plated beam baddon is basically a Hellcat with beams and everything you can ask from a mega beam ship, and the pve one will do the work without problems. So what don't suit you appart from stupid request like "the ship should be able to fit everything regardless of its performances" ?

What performances your requests are aiming for ? Buff and nerf have effect in the reality of the game, and you completely ignore them and think like if there was only amarr ships in the game. That's not how you balance things. Where do you want amarr ships to be between the other ships ?

You are completely disconected from the reality of the game and only look from your amarr perspective. As I said countless of times, the internal differences between ships don't matter as long as they perform good in the game. And yes, beams don't perform good, but what do you want them to be ? I'm not talking about cap or fitting, I'm talking about the effect of these : what the changes you are requesting will allow ?


We've already stated it a number of times, you choosing to ignore it and claiming we haven't is an aside. His fitting numbers will allow the Amarr to make the same tradeoffs when similarly fitting long range weapons as the other races have to make. Not being able to fit a MWD + Repper or MWD + Cap Booster without a fitting mod is a HUGE red flag that the fittings for Beams are broken.

Those fits are terrible cause they have 8 mods that cover up for how broken the Amarr fitting is whereas any other races similarly capable fit would have maybe a cap booster and a single PG mod if you're Minmatar Arty fit, that's it. 8 down to 2 mods isn't balance at all no matter how much you claim it to be.
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#669 - 2013-05-04 13:02:21 UTC
Naso Aya wrote:
I think a better comparison would be Projectiles to Lasers- one of rails pluses (in my eyes) is that you can slap em willy nilly on any ship and have plenty of PWG at least leftover. Less so for CPU, but still room to play around.

Even assuming that, though, we're still about 8% off from having Tach's on par with 1400mm Arty.


Check out my fitting comparison. Beams are worse in PG, CPU, and cap than similarly fit Rails on the Gallente lineup. But hey, they have better tracking so yay for balance.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#670 - 2013-05-04 13:22:02 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
[quote=Bouh Revetoile]They are currently at around 200% PG and 300% cap use.

I'd like to have them down to 150% PG and 200% cap use from what they are.

These are random numbers. Why 150% PG and 200% cap ? What will that allow appart from making you sleep better when you see the numbers until you awake one day and think them too high again ?

Have you ever tried to make a gallente BS good for LT armor fleet ? They are garbage for this even without fitting mods. That's why I'm asking for comparisons.

As for the fit I showed, please tell me how bad they are. Because I'd say they are very good, and that would be as argumented as your moaning. The plated beam baddon is basically a Hellcat with beams and everything you can ask from a mega beam ship, and the pve one will do the work without problems. So what don't suit you appart from stupid request like "the ship should be able to fit everything regardless of its performances" ?

What performances your requests are aiming for ? Buff and nerf have effect in the reality of the game, and you completely ignore them and think like if there was only amarr ships in the game. That's not how you balance things. Where do you want amarr ships to be between the other ships ?

You are completely disconected from the reality of the game and only look from your amarr perspective. As I said countless of times, the internal differences between ships don't matter as long as they perform good in the game. And yes, beams don't perform good, but what do you want them to be ? I'm not talking about cap or fitting, I'm talking about the effect of these : what the changes you are requesting will allow ?


They're not random numbers. Actually, they are a mere extension of what has already occured. Let's do some simple, obvious math.

They (Beams) are at about 300% of what railguns use. They are getting a 20% reduction of their overall cap use. 20% of 300% is 60%. So once the fix hits, they are at about 240% of their nearest equivalent. I'd like that a little lower, to have some more sustainability in pve since the only ship actually capable of carrying and firing them is losing it's cap bonus with no cap improvement in return. In fact, they had planned to savagely nerf it's cap till we threw a huge fit about how ******** that was.

To get this, I'd like to see an overall small cap improvement to the Amarr battleship line, aside from the Geddon which will realistically never be fit with lasers by anyone claiming sanity. As well as a further slight reduction in cap use once again.

None of these fixes have the wide reaching implications that you are ranting about. They are nothing more than a quality of life improvement. PvP is not affected even slightly just by letting us actually do level 4s without warping out every 50 shots for cap. And that helps alleviate the absurd barrier to entry that lower sp amarr players have. It has no effect on pvp whatsoever.

I don't understand why you can't seem to realize this. The only, only reason cap use on guns matters is at the very extreme of neuting, where only Projectiles and Missiles will still fire. This is an entirely irrelevant situation, since as long as a hybrid or laser still uses even one GJ of cap, it will fail to fire under extreme neuts. So basically it's an entirely arbitrary number, only putting a battle clock on the respective ships that use lasers. What good does this do anyone?

Now, as for powergrid. That needs to be reduced so that Megabeams are not vastly harder to fit than their nearest statistical equivalent, 425s. Not to be as easy as them, which in the throws of your vast delusions you have accused us of. Just to be not as absurdly tricky to fit.

Because right now, the ship you have chosen for comparison, a Hyperion, can fit a full rack of guns, repper, mwd, and a cap booster without going above 90% PG. Amarr cannot come anywhere close to that, we are look at about 110% of our grid if we are lucky. That is entirely unfair.

And yes, those fits you posted are total ****. And if I have to explain to you why X ray ammunition is worthless, then you need to uninstall.

Yes, actually, I have attempted to fit a Gallente Battleship for armor fleets. It doesn't work any better than trying to use Beams does.

Gallente Battleships suck at fleets. Deal with it, just like you are constantly, incessantly, telling us to deal with how much Beams suck.

Irony!

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Calathorn Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#671 - 2013-05-04 15:50:33 UTC
translation from the war of numbers: ammar need more cap and PG as right now they are the gimps in the game (isn't that the gallente's forte)


in all seriousness, these people are correct, there's a disconect between ammar BS's and everyone elses. if you want to fire more than 50 rounds, you have to sacrafice FAR too much. AND if you want to fit the highest tier weapons, your options are A. spend a billion on a nightmare....or B. have zero tank on your standard BS

BRING BACK THE JUKEBOX

I attended the School of Hard Nocks, the only place you will ever learn anything of value, sadly most Americans never meet the requirments to attend
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#672 - 2013-05-04 15:57:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Avald Midular
Calathorn Virpio wrote:
translation from the war of numbers: ammar need more cap and PG as right now they are the gimps in the game (isn't that the gallente's forte)


in all seriousness, these people are correct, there's a disconect between ammar BS's and everyone elses. if you want to fire more than 50 rounds, you have to sacrafice FAR too much. AND if you want to fit the highest tier weapons, your options are A. spend a billion on a nightmare....or B. have zero tank on your standard BS


Well said.

...and we're not asking for more PG and cap (or further reductions in weapon PG and cap) in a vacuum. Relative to other races T1 BS's, the Amarr face fitting tradeoffs far sooner and more severe than any other race in both PG and cap. A low SP player (level 3's for example) can just barely fit a rack of Mega Beams, Amarr's 2nd best weapon, leaving almost zero PG left to do anything. This is completely a unique dilemma for the Amarr and will cause many players to switch to Gallente or anyone else where the fittings are much more forgiving.

If you disagree, please provide a justification for the above level 3 skill problem or the fact that even with level 5 skills, an Amarr pilot can't even fit a basic Mega Beam rack, MWD, and either a Cap Booster or Repper without busting through his PG, again a tradeoff only for the Amarr.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#673 - 2013-05-04 17:12:52 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
They're not random numbers. Actually, they are a mere extension of what has already occured. Let's do some simple, obvious math.

They (Beams) are at about 300% of what railguns use. They are getting a 20% reduction of their overall cap use. 20% of 300% is 60%. So once the fix hits, they are at about 240% of their nearest equivalent. I'd like that a little lower, to have some more sustainability in pve since the only ship actually capable of carrying and firing them is losing it's cap bonus with no cap improvement in return. In fact, they had planned to savagely nerf it's cap till we threw a huge fit about how ******** that was.

To get this, I'd like to see an overall small cap improvement to the Amarr battleship line, aside from the Geddon which will realistically never be fit with lasers by anyone claiming sanity. As well as a further slight reduction in cap use once again.

None of these fixes have the wide reaching implications that you are ranting about. They are nothing more than a quality of life improvement. PvP is not affected even slightly just by letting us actually do level 4s without warping out every 50 shots for cap. And that helps alleviate the absurd barrier to entry that lower sp amarr players have. It has no effect on pvp whatsoever.

I don't understand why you can't seem to realize this. The only, only reason cap use on guns matters is at the very extreme of neuting, where only Projectiles and Missiles will still fire. This is an entirely irrelevant situation, since as long as a hybrid or laser still uses even one GJ of cap, it will fail to fire under extreme neuts. So basically it's an entirely arbitrary number, only putting a battle clock on the respective ships that use lasers. What good does this do anyone?

Now, as for powergrid. That needs to be reduced so that Megabeams are not vastly harder to fit than their nearest statistical equivalent, 425s. Not to be as easy as them, which in the throws of your vast delusions you have accused us of. Just to be not as absurdly tricky to fit.

Because right now, the ship you have chosen for comparison, a Hyperion, can fit a full rack of guns, repper, mwd, and a cap booster without going above 90% PG. Amarr cannot come anywhere close to that, we are look at about 110% of our grid if we are lucky. That is entirely unfair.

And yes, those fits you posted are total ****. And if I have to explain to you why X ray ammunition is worthless, then you need to uninstall.

Yes, actually, I have attempted to fit a Gallente Battleship for armor fleets. It doesn't work any better than trying to use Beams does.

Gallente Battleships suck at fleets. Deal with it, just like you are constantly, incessantly, telling us to deal with how much Beams suck.

Irony!

So, your only reason is to allow amarr BS to do lvl4 mission more easily, and you looked at nothing else.

May I remember you that if you have T2 large guns, pulse will allow you to hit anything in any mission with more dps and allow you to fit anything you want to your ship. If you don't have T2 guns, then meta4 or faction beams are a lot easier to use and fit than T2 ones, and may solve all your problems.

And again, looking at percentages is ridiculous : beams won't suddenly be balanced because their fitting is only 200% of railguns but because you can do something more in your ship. When will you finaly show a fit you can't do with the proposed changes and that a larger buff would make viable ? Maybe you are afraid about your fitting skills ? Reading you, I don't expect miracles... You know, to hit far, another lens is not ridiculous in fact.

What I want, if that's not clear enough, is you to go deeper in your requests, beyond the "200% would be better, because I prefer this number". The changes have large implications BTW : 20% cap use is a built in elutriation rig, and 10% PG is almost a free ACR rig ; which mean you need one less of each.
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#674 - 2013-05-04 17:17:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Avald Midular
Bouh Revetoile wrote:


May I remember you that if you have T2 large guns, pulse will allow you to hit anything in any mission with more dps and allow you to fit anything you want to your ship. If you don't have T2 guns, then meta4 or faction beams are a lot easier to use and fit than T2 ones, and may solve all your problems.

What I want, if that's not clear enough, is you to go deeper in your requests, beyond the "200% would be better, because I prefer this number". The changes have large implications BTW : 20% cap use is a built in elutriation rig, and 10% PG is almost a free ACR rig ; which mean you need one less of each.


Oh great so other races are forced into similar situations needing to rely on inferior weapons because they're fine? Can you provide numbers for that or if its fine for just the Amarr that's good enough?

Those "implications" you listed are exactly what we want removed, those are rigs/modules Amarr need 4-5 of that no one else does for similarly performing weapons.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#675 - 2013-05-04 17:17:18 UTC
Avald Midular wrote:
If you disagree, please provide a justification for the above level 3 skill problem or the fact that even with level 5 skills, an Amarr pilot can't even fit a basic Mega Beam rack, MWD, and either a Cap Booster or Repper without busting through his PG, again a tradeoff only for the Amarr.

Tell more to minmatar about this tradeoff. Do you know a Maelstrom need an ACR rig to use 1400mm arties ?
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#676 - 2013-05-04 17:19:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Avald Midular
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Avald Midular wrote:
If you disagree, please provide a justification for the above level 3 skill problem or the fact that even with level 5 skills, an Amarr pilot can't even fit a basic Mega Beam rack, MWD, and either a Cap Booster or Repper without busting through his PG, again a tradeoff only for the Amarr.

Tell more to minmatar about this tradeoff. Do you know a Maelstrom need an ACR rig to use 1400mm arties ?


Not with level 5's skills they don't. Are you seriously comparing mega-beams to 1400 Arties given the current meta game and overwhelming popularity of 1400's in BS fleet doctrines? If they had to for 1200's then you'd have a point.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#677 - 2013-05-04 17:20:36 UTC
Avald Midular wrote:
Oh great so other races are forced into similar situations needing to rely on inferior weapons because they're fine? Can you provide numbers for that or if its fine for just the Amarr that's good enough?

Those "implications" you listed are exactly what we want removed, those are rigs/modules Amarr need 4-5 of that no one else does for similarly performing weapons.

So show a fit you would like to be able to make but can't because of cap or PG ; and then show that other races can do it a lot more easily to prove the imbalance.

And finaly, if you thing gallente ships are OP, go say it on the gallente thread.
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#678 - 2013-05-04 17:22:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Avald Midular
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Avald Midular wrote:
Oh great so other races are forced into similar situations needing to rely on inferior weapons because they're fine? Can you provide numbers for that or if its fine for just the Amarr that's good enough?

Those "implications" you listed are exactly what we want removed, those are rigs/modules Amarr need 4-5 of that no one else does for similarly performing weapons.

So show a fit you would like to be able to make but can't because of cap or PG ; and then show that other races can do it a lot more easily to prove the imbalance.

And finaly, if you thing gallente ships are OP, go say it on the gallente thread.


Any Mega-Beam fit with an MWD and anything else that doesn't require a PG mod and Level 5 fitting skills and 3-4 cap mods. No other race has a problem with that or is penalized that many fitting/cap mods.

Nowhere did I say Gallente are OP even if they are, this is an Amarr thread so I'm providing feedback on Amarr/Laser changes.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#679 - 2013-05-04 17:36:02 UTC
Avald Midular wrote:
Any Mega-Beam fit with an MWD and anything else that doesn't require a PG mod and Level 5 fitting skills and 3-4 cap mods. No other race has a problem with that or is penalized that many fitting/cap mods.

Nowhere did I say Gallente are OP even if they are, this is an Amarr thread so I'm providing feedback on Amarr/Laser changes.

Actually, my pve hyperion have 4 cap mods...

See the problem : you are actually more concerned about the number of cap modules than the actual performances of the ship. That is stupid.
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#680 - 2013-05-04 23:12:34 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Avald Midular wrote:
Any Mega-Beam fit with an MWD and anything else that doesn't require a PG mod and Level 5 fitting skills and 3-4 cap mods. No other race has a problem with that or is penalized that many fitting/cap mods.

Nowhere did I say Gallente are OP even if they are, this is an Amarr thread so I'm providing feedback on Amarr/Laser changes.

Actually, my pve hyperion have 4 cap mods...

See the problem : you are actually more concerned about the number of cap modules than the actual performances of the ship. That is stupid.


What's the fit that requires 4 cap mods on a gallente ship for pve, it would require 6-7 including rigs on a similar Amarr fit.