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[Odyssey] Large Energy Turrets

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Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#641 - 2013-05-03 17:42:40 UTC
Jaina Doombringer wrote:
Last answer before i hide you.

Guns ONLY without compromise YES, as every other race can do.
To fit anything without a thought, no. Thats nothing i asked for.
Just to fit my Guns without having no choice at all exept one gimp fit isnt balance at all.

The part you mention is just a simple comparison of Beams on an Abadon vs Rails on a Hyperion. Just a fact how it will be after the change.
Abaddon gimped fitting fith Capproblems vs Hyperion a wet dream in any fittingpants without Capproblems.

But so long, troll on.
Your hidden for me as for most amarrians from now on.

I'm only hidden from stubborn people looking for overpowered ships. I even provided fits to discuss the actual effects of the changes, but they are obviously too good for you to be discussed, and when the discussion end with a "large cap booster or gtfo", indeed there's nothing to add.
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#642 - 2013-05-03 17:56:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Avald Midular
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
This shoud fit fine :

[Abaddon, Beam]

1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Damage Control II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Large Micro Jump Drive
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Sensor Booster II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet L
Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet L
Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet L
Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet L
Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet L
Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet L
Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet L
Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Ultraviolet L

Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I

Problem solved.

Maybe you're talking about pve ? This should fit just fine :
[Abaddon, pve_lvl4]

Large Armor Repairer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II

Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Large Micro Jump Drive

Mega Beam Laser II, Xray L
Mega Beam Laser II, Xray L
Mega Beam Laser II, Xray L
Mega Beam Laser II, Xray L
Mega Beam Laser II, Xray L
Mega Beam Laser II, Xray L
Mega Beam Laser II, Xray L
Mega Beam Laser II, Xray L

Large Energy Discharge Elutriation I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I


Problem solved.


Those are terrible fits, no other race has to use 2 PG mods and 3 cap mods in the mids and 3 cap rigs just to use their 2nd best weapons long range or short range.
Calathorn Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#643 - 2013-05-03 17:59:11 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Calathorn Virpio wrote:
5-9 minutes of everything running isn't asking for an "eternity" just for somthing that matches what other races are possible of doing. never had to run cap ,modules with any OTHER race to achieve that much time of having cap, why would i need to with the ammar? (you'd think that at least lore wise, they would have the best capacitors to make up for their weaponries cap draw)

Shocked

oops, there i go using common sense againRoll

I'd like to swap ammo in one second, yet only amarr can do it. Also, insane tracking is more useful than most people think, yet only beams have that.

Why should everything be the same ?




your comback is that i can swap ammo in a second and therefore should be able to shoot my guns for more then a minute before having to wait 5 for my cap to re-charge?

try again.


and what is this about insane tracking? last i recall, blasters have the best

BRING BACK THE JUKEBOX

I attended the School of Hard Nocks, the only place you will ever learn anything of value, sadly most Americans never meet the requirments to attend
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#644 - 2013-05-03 18:06:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
Avald Midular wrote:
Those are terrible fits, no other race has to use 2 PG mods and 3 cap mods in the mids and 3 cap rigs just to use their 2nd best weapons long range or short range.

Actually, pulse already work just fine, for pve or pvp. Actually, amarr BS are among the best and the most versatile in the game, but yes, not because of tracking but range.

On the other hand, beams have the best tracking of all LR turrets, by a large margin. People are more concerned by beams, because pulse work just fine in fact, because of scorch.

As for the need for cap modules, the idea that you shouldn't need them is stupid when the performances of the ship are already equal to the others with these fitting modules.

Just use a minmatar ship if you want to fit everything and still have PG and CPU free.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#645 - 2013-05-03 18:39:36 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Avald Midular wrote:
Those are terrible fits, no other race has to use 2 PG mods and 3 cap mods in the mids and 3 cap rigs just to use their 2nd best weapons long range or short range.

Actually, pulse already work just fine, for pve or pvp. Actually, amarr BS are among the best and the most versatile in the game, but yes, not because of tracking but range.

On the other hand, beams have the best tracking of all LR turrets, by a large margin. People are more concerned by beams, because pulse work just fine in fact, because of scorch.

As for the need for cap modules, the idea that you shouldn't need them is stupid when the performances of the ship are already equal to the others with these fitting modules.

Just use a minmatar ship if you want to fit everything and still have PG and CPU free.


"best and most versatile in the game"? Are you high? The Battleship revamp aside, they all do exactly the same thing, laser turrets. Versatile my finely dressed ass.

The new Geddon is fairly well rounded, but it's not out yet, is it?

I have explained, time and again, that tracking is a wasted stat on long range guns. Either you are hitting at enough of a distance than 1/6 of a radian isn't going to matter (and it won't), or your FC messed up bad, and they are under your guns regardless. Long range guns, the entire doctrine of sniping, is a binary equation. Either you get them from a distance, or they will get under your guns. No amount of tracking can change that.

A single TC worth of tracking isn't worth 200% PG and 300% cap compared to other weapons, and you have yet to say a single thing that disproves that. One fitting worth of tracking, does not equal 5 fitting worth of powergrid and cap.

And there it is... Winmatar. So, if I don't like it, my choices are suck it, or go play Winmatar? Yeah, not accepting that answer.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#646 - 2013-05-03 18:46:26 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Avald Midular wrote:
Those are terrible fits, no other race has to use 2 PG mods and 3 cap mods in the mids and 3 cap rigs just to use their 2nd best weapons long range or short range.

Actually, pulse already work just fine, for pve or pvp. Actually, amarr BS are among the best and the most versatile in the game, but yes, not because of tracking but range.

On the other hand, beams have the best tracking of all LR turrets, by a large margin. People are more concerned by beams, because pulse work just fine in fact, because of scorch.

As for the need for cap modules, the idea that you shouldn't need them is stupid when the performances of the ship are already equal to the others with these fitting modules.

Just use a minmatar ship if you want to fit everything and still have PG and CPU free.


Ok sure, 2 PG and 6 cap mods are perfectly balanced because a long range weapon has better tracking which is good on a long range BS why? Lol ok.
Naso Aya
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#647 - 2013-05-03 19:18:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Naso Aya
Here's the issue: The main bonuses of long range lasers comes from two things:

Higher Tracking
Higher Damage per Second.

The weaknesses are:

Range
Powergrid Usage
Capacitor Usage


Here's the thing about sniper fights: If tracking matters, you're flying your ships wrong. So the "bonus" tracking Lasers have is nice, but a fundamentally flawed bonus to a sniper platform.

The strength of Pulse Lasers, as a specific platform is the following: (bear with me for a second)

Range

Weaknesses (compared to other short range platforms)

Tracking
Capacitor

Which means for any range gleam would be used on t2's, it'd always be better to use Scorch, and pulse. The issue is, our short range weapon is great for kiting, and our long range weapon is great for blapping. I don't know how, but if this is fixed, it'll be a lot easier to balance the system as a whole. Effectively, our weapons are competing in slots, whereas blasters vs rails have clearly defined roles, as do auto vs rails.
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#648 - 2013-05-03 19:54:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Avald Midular
Someone was complaining after my last comparison post that I only posted weapon usage as a % of the hull fitting and didn't include how the % left affected module usage.

This is the current fitting situation for an Abaddon (or Apoc) versus a Hyperion with MWDs, Cap Boosters and tanks included. This ignores the cap drain which I can put in a separate post but they are equally or more insane than these numbers. All values are with Level 5 skills and new Large Energy Weapon changes, notice how bad the situation gets if the pilot didn't have Level 5 engineering or AWU.

Module (PG, CPU)
MWD II (1375, 75)
Heavy Cap Booster II (1925, 40)
Large Armor Rep II (2070, 55)

Abaddon (26250, 700)
Hyperion (20000, 750)

Below are the fitting comparisons with each fit in the form of Weapon(% PG, % CPU) where the %'s are relative to the total hull.

Abaddon

Full Rack of Turrets
Duel Heavy (47.5%, 40.3%)
Mega Beam (88.3%, 49.7%)
Tachyon (102%, 54%)

Turrets + Repper
Duel Heavy (55.4%, 48.1%)
Mega Beam (96.1%, 57.6%)
Tachyon (110%, 61.9%)

Turrets + MWD
Duel Heavy (52.8%, 51%)
Mega Beam (93.5%, 60.4%)
Tachyon (107%, 64.7%)

Turrets + MWD +Repper
Duel Heavy (60.6%, 58.9%)
Mega Beam (101%, 68.3%)
Tachyon (115%, 72.6%)

Turrets + MWD + Repper + Cap Booster
Duel Heavy (68.0%, 64.6%)
Mega Beam (109%, 74%)
Tachyon (122%, 78.3%)

Hyperion

Full Rack of Turrets
Duel 250 (31.2%, 34.8%)
350 (46.9%, 37.8%)
425 (62.4%, 44.4%)

Turrets + Repper
Duel 250 (41.5%, 43%)
350 (57.1%, 45.1%)
425 (72.7%, 51.7%)

Turrets + MWD
Duel 250 (38.1%, 48%)
350 (53.7%, 47.8%)
425 (78.9%, 54.4%)

Turrets + MWD +Repper
Duel 250 (48.4%, 55.9%)
350 (64%, 55.1%)
425 (79.6%, 61.7%)

Turrets + MWD + Repper + Cap Booster
Duel 250 (58%, 61.2%)
350 (73.6%, 60.5%)
425 (89.2%, 67.1%)

The Amarr are the only race where both their dps boats need a PG mod to even fit their 2nd best weapons + MWD + either a tank or cap booster (WITH LEVEL 5 SKILLS!!!!!!!). The tradeoffs faced by the Abaddon pilot are miles away from the few faced by the Hyperion pilot at all levels of weapons in both PG and CPU! Notice that at no point does the Gallente pilot need to make a tradeoff with a fitting module with the above mods fitted since they are better off at all levels than the Amarr's 2nd best weapon in both PG and CPU. Imagine the horror faced by a low SP player, why should he pick Amarr over anyone else given their fitting options or lack thereof?

It would be a tremendous help to the conversation in this thread if CCP Rise or Fozzie comment on how these numbers resemble balance.
Jaina Doombringer
Grapes of Wrath
#649 - 2013-05-03 20:23:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaina Doombringer
Don't forget, as i learned today, thats totaly balanced because we got UBER DPS and an OMGWTFROFLSTOMP tracking of DOOM on our LR weapons.

Fit a med Capbooster or GTF off. Repper on a Buffership isnt needed and having only 1 choice of fitting without total gimpage and one role is perfectly fine. At least if your Amarr. We are the Trackingoverlords and thus shall suffer.
As for the DEVs: Job well done. Balance accomplished.

So sarcasm aside. If someone doesn't see our problems and think we would be ultra op because of some PG and Cap adjustments, you can't do anything about it. Stupidity isn't cureable. Beeing deliberatly ignorant could be cured but not in combination with stupidity. Sadly.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#650 - 2013-05-03 20:25:51 UTC
Jaina Doombringer wrote:
Don't forget, as i learned today, thats totaly balanced because we got UBER DPS and an OMGWTFROFLSTOMP tracking of DOOM on our LR weapons.

Fit a med Capbooster or GTF off. Repper on a Buffership isnt needed and having only 1 choice of fitting without total gimpage and one role is perfectly fine. At least if your Amarr. We are the Trackingoverlords and thus shall suffer.
As for the DEVs: Job well done. Balance accomplished.

So sarcasm aside. If someone doesn't see our problems and think we would be ultra op because of some PG and Cap adjustments, you can't do anything about it. Stupidity isn't cureable. Ignorance could be cured but not in combination with stupidity. Sadly.


Ignorance is not having been told the truth. Stupidity is deliberate ignorance of a truth that is before you.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Jaina Doombringer
Grapes of Wrath
#651 - 2013-05-03 20:41:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaina Doombringer
Stupidity is a lack of intelligence, understanding, reason, wit, or sense.
But your point about ignorance is valid :)
I meant beeing deliberatly ignorant but messed up with the english/german translation. Thx for the correction.
Jill Antaris
Jill's Open Incursion Corp
#652 - 2013-05-03 21:03:46 UTC
Jaina Doombringer wrote:
Don't forget, as i learned today, thats totaly balanced because we got UBER DPS and an OMGWTFROFLSTOMP tracking of DOOM on our LR weapons.

Fit a med Capbooster or GTF off. Repper on a Buffership isnt needed and having only 1 choice of fitting without total gimpage and one role is perfectly fine. At least if your Amarr. We are the Trackingoverlords and thus shall suffer.
As for the DEVs: Job well done. Balance accomplished.

So sarcasm aside. If someone doesn't see our problems and think we would be ultra op because of some PG and Cap adjustments, you can't do anything about it. Stupidity isn't cureable. Ignorance could be cured but not in combination with stupidity. Sadly.


Fitting medium cap boosters and anp's on fleet ships is around since years(a bit after solo pvpers adopted), since it is the easiest way to free up cpu and powergrid and nobody fits a active rep outside solo/small gang pvp this days(mostly not even there).

Actually flying amarr hulls since years I don't see your point. Lasers burn a lot of cap, AC dps beyond 50% falloff is like tickling your target to death, missiles losing 50%+ of her dps if you simply mwd in a random direction and blaster dps at point blank is like trying to bent math of the tracking formula to your own will(doesn't work so well for solo since 2009). Eve in a nutshell, everything is flawed to provide options to overcome it with modules/tactics/gang setups.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#653 - 2013-05-03 21:08:43 UTC
Quote:
missiles losing 50%+ of her dps if you simply mwd in a random direction


This is true only of Frigates, because the signature radius bloom will light you up like a Christmas tree at any size category above Frigate. It will half again make up for whatever dps loss is incurred from your velocity.

At what point did we stop talking about Battleships here?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#654 - 2013-05-03 21:13:19 UTC
Jill Antaris wrote:
Jaina Doombringer wrote:
Don't forget, as i learned today, thats totaly balanced because we got UBER DPS and an OMGWTFROFLSTOMP tracking of DOOM on our LR weapons.

Fit a med Capbooster or GTF off. Repper on a Buffership isnt needed and having only 1 choice of fitting without total gimpage and one role is perfectly fine. At least if your Amarr. We are the Trackingoverlords and thus shall suffer.
As for the DEVs: Job well done. Balance accomplished.

So sarcasm aside. If someone doesn't see our problems and think we would be ultra op because of some PG and Cap adjustments, you can't do anything about it. Stupidity isn't cureable. Ignorance could be cured but not in combination with stupidity. Sadly.


Fitting medium cap boosters and anp's on fleet ships is around since years(a bit after solo pvpers adopted), since it is the easiest way to free up cpu and powergrid and nobody fits a active rep outside solo/small gang pvp this days(mostly not even there).

Actually flying amarr hulls since years I don't see your point. Lasers burn a lot of cap, AC dps beyond 50% falloff is like tickling your target to death, missiles losing 50%+ of her dps if you simply mwd in a random direction and blaster dps at point blank is like trying to bent math of the tracking formula to your own will(doesn't work so well for solo since 2009). Eve in a nutshell, everything is flawed to provide options to overcome it with modules/tactics/gang setups.


Look at the fitting post above, lasers do a lot more than burn a lot of cap.
Jaina Doombringer
Grapes of Wrath
#655 - 2013-05-03 21:17:41 UTC
And i think we only complain about our Beams. So AC, Blasters aren't realy compareable to them amiright? Pulse are mostly fine after the changes except their ammo need some tweaking, but thats another thing.
BTW no one wanted Beams to be capstable till the end of time. Just a little bit easier on the fitting and capuse.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#656 - 2013-05-03 22:59:58 UTC
Jaina Doombringer wrote:
BTW no one wanted Beams to be capstable till the end of time. Just a little bit easier on the fitting and capuse.

And you just got what you wanted !! Just read the first post of this thread !

I even showed fits. You may not like them, but they should work just fine.
Jill Antaris
Jill's Open Incursion Corp
#657 - 2013-05-03 23:41:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Jill Antaris
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
missiles losing 50%+ of her dps if you simply mwd in a random direction


This is true only of Frigates, because the signature radius bloom will light you up like a Christmas tree at any size category above Frigate. It will half again make up for whatever dps loss is incurred from your velocity.

At what point did we stop talking about Battleships here?


It also works for BS and cruisers. What?

Different to turrets, dps on mwding targets is just defined by sig and speed, actually more by the later, since shield tanks with the higher speed and far bigger sig actually take even less damage. Ever tried to hit a mwding BS with torps? Oops

Avald Midular wrote:
Look at the fitting post above, lasers do a lot more than burn a lot of cap.


In a fleet setup, actually no. Lasers ships got more tracking and more dps, however the most important targets(logi and T3 tackle) sport extreme high EM resists and very good thermal resists if you engage a armor fleet. Against a shield fleet you will have the upper hand however they will pull up range fairly quickly and disengage in the end or simply use the better reaction time of her RR to outrep your fleet if they have the alpha to take down your ships.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#658 - 2013-05-03 23:58:21 UTC
Jill Antaris wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
missiles losing 50%+ of her dps if you simply mwd in a random direction


This is true only of Frigates, because the signature radius bloom will light you up like a Christmas tree at any size category above Frigate. It will half again make up for whatever dps loss is incurred from your velocity.

At what point did we stop talking about Battleships here?


It also works for BS and cruisers. What?

Different to turrets, dps on mwding targets is just defined by sig and speed, actually more by the later, since shield tanks with the higher speed and far bigger sig actually take even less damage. Ever tried to hit a mwding BS with torps? Oops


Javelin is... acceptable. Missiles, I freely admit, have a balancing issue at present, mostly because they walk a fine line between OP and UP by the very nature of their weapon system.

The revamp for Javelin Cruises will be quite nice, but still no one will use the poor Raven in pvp. It's part of the nature of missiles being delayed dps, much as the lack of scalability keeps self reps from being used in pvp. EVE is a game of scale like no other, so a lot of stuff falls by the wayside for lack of use in large fleets.

Not saying that's ok, but it is what happens.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Jill Antaris
Jill's Open Incursion Corp
#659 - 2013-05-04 00:11:21 UTC
Actually if they make faction torps hit mwding BCs for 60%+ of her dps with a single painter on them I would happily use a nano raven for pvp. Cool
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#660 - 2013-05-04 00:52:05 UTC
Jill Antaris wrote:
Actually if they make faction torps hit mwding BCs for 60%+ of her dps with a single painter on them I would happily use a nano raven for pvp. Cool


Well, the Cruise changes seem to suggest that they are working toward a change to Torps too, which would be entirely warranted.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.