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[Odyssey] Large Energy Turrets

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Regolis
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#601 - 2013-05-02 22:34:59 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:



Rails.
Dual 250.
350
425.

Lasers.
Dual Heavy.
Mega
Tachyon.

Hey look, 425's are actually the match to Tachyons. Don't care which side of the argument you are trying to back here, as I really can't work out your point, but please, work with the actual facts.



I can't work out the argument because I'm being intentionally obtuse.

Look at the small ... then medium guns ... where is the Tachyon class weapon there? Oh right .. isn't one.

Stop trying to balance the 425mm Fail to the Tachyon.

The Tachyon is a tier higher gun IT DOES NOT BALANCE to the 425mm.

Look at the medium guns.

Balance comes when the MEGABEAM doesn't require 3x the power of a 425mm. After that we can discuss how the Tachyon gets balanced.

I know you Gallente don't really care about balance. You're just trying to push your argument. I would like to thank you for posting in the Large Energy Turret thread as you push the count higher with each failed attempt. Learn to math before coming in here and whining.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#602 - 2013-05-02 22:42:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
& where have people said, especially myself, that it should be just as easy to fit and exactly the same cap costs?
Answer; We haven't, thats your own paranoia talking. We just want the fitting & cap to be more reflective of the small difference. Not still set to the old days when Tachyons did double the damage of everything else.

So what are you asking ? All large beams are already receiving 20% cap and 10% PG buff.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#603 - 2013-05-02 23:54:14 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
& where have people said, especially myself, that it should be just as easy to fit and exactly the same cap costs?
Answer; We haven't, thats your own paranoia talking. We just want the fitting & cap to be more reflective of the small difference. Not still set to the old days when Tachyons did double the damage of everything else.

So what are you asking ? All large beams are already receiving 20% cap and 10% PG buff.


And it's nowhere close to enough. This "buff" is what they do when they realize that some of the battleship changes gave the Apocalypse, their flagship for the new Amarr design philosophy, a total inability to fit it's own guns, and total inability to run them for more than 50 seconds.

It's obvious even to them. And in this very thread, they are even saying this is only supposed to be a bandaid because even they can recognize that the current s***ty state of lasers won't fly for much longer.

CCP Rise wrote:
For anyone who wishes this change was more exhaustive - part of what was nice about this solution is that it doesn't disrupt any future efforts to look at energy weapons as a whole. That said, the near near future does not contain such a rework, so any suggestions about crystals or other large problems related to the weapon probably won't have a huge effect on our plans for Odyssey.

Hope that for now this makes life a bit more comfortable until we do have the time to come back and look at the whole thing.


Right there, in black and white. They are hoping that this buys us off until they can find the time to do this the right way.

So guess what? I'm not going to let them forget that this is a problem. Because neglect is the one thing that has been hurting Amarr the most in the last few years.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#604 - 2013-05-02 23:59:03 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
So guess what? I'm not going to let them forget that this is a problem. Because neglect is the one thing that has been hurting Amarr the most in the last few years.

You still miss the problem with beams. The problem is not cap and PG cost. The problem is that beams don't have any reason to live.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#605 - 2013-05-03 00:01:36 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
So guess what? I'm not going to let them forget that this is a problem. Because neglect is the one thing that has been hurting Amarr the most in the last few years.

You still miss the problem with beams. The problem is not cap and PG cost. The problem is that beams don't have any reason to live.


*BZZ*

"Sorry, that's the wrong answer. What do we have as a consolation prize? It's a lovely Quafe T-shirt, modeled by the lovely La'shandra over here!"

The problem is that they can't be fit to their own ships.

The problem is that, even at lower ship classes, they are useless compared to even fitting arty on an Amarr frigate.

The problem is that they can't fire more than 40 shots before you run out of cap and flounder like a beached whale.

The problem is the attitude that too many people seem to have, that things like this are ok.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#606 - 2013-05-03 00:04:10 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
The problem is the attitude that too many people seem to have, that things like this are ok.

Things like this are not ok, but your solution is not better appart from a selfish amarr perspective.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#607 - 2013-05-03 00:06:31 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
The problem is the attitude that too many people seem to have, that things like this are ok.

Things like this are not ok, but your solution is not better appart from a selfish amarr perspective.


What solution? I dare you to tell me!

Because you have not listened to a single word I have said in the entirety of my posting history on these forums.

Guess what? I just spelled it out for you in the BS thread, but I defy you to actually tell me what my position is. I DARE YOU.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#608 - 2013-05-03 00:16:32 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
The problem is the attitude that too many people seem to have, that things like this are ok.

Things like this are not ok, but your solution is not better appart from a selfish amarr perspective.

"We should have a reason to actually use our largest long range weapon. Every other race does."
"No, stop being selfish."

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#609 - 2013-05-03 00:19:03 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
The problem is the attitude that too many people seem to have, that things like this are ok.

Things like this are not ok, but your solution is not better appart from a selfish amarr perspective.

"We should have a reason to actually use our largest long range weapon. Every other race does."
"No, stop being selfish."


Dude, that is the TL;DR for this entire series of threads.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#610 - 2013-05-03 00:52:53 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
"We should have a reason to actually use our largest long range weapon. Every other race does."

With these changes, you will have usable beams and tachyons. What more do you need ? What objective do you need to achieve for beam to be good ?
Calathorn Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#611 - 2013-05-03 02:07:54 UTC
wow, the fact that there are collectivly 3000 replies to the ammar threads seems to indicate that NO ONE LIKES WHAT YOU'RE DOING TO THE AMMAR CCP!


BRING BACK THE JUKEBOX

I attended the School of Hard Nocks, the only place you will ever learn anything of value, sadly most Americans never meet the requirments to attend
Calathorn Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#612 - 2013-05-03 02:09:56 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
& where have people said, especially myself, that it should be just as easy to fit and exactly the same cap costs?
Answer; We haven't, thats your own paranoia talking. We just want the fitting & cap to be more reflective of the small difference. Not still set to the old days when Tachyons did double the damage of everything else.

So what are you asking ? All large beams are already receiving 20% cap and 10% PG buff.



which is incedently, a NERF if you fly several types of ships due to the fact that you can get a reduction up to 50% on their cap use, so yeah....not happy

BRING BACK THE JUKEBOX

I attended the School of Hard Nocks, the only place you will ever learn anything of value, sadly most Americans never meet the requirments to attend
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#613 - 2013-05-03 04:11:43 UTC
Reposting this from the Amarr thread since it is relevant to our discussion here.

Long Range Large Weapon Comparison....

Some people have been re-requesting comparison analysis between the fitting difficulties or lack thereof of the 4 races. Below are a comparison of each races ship that is most likely to use long range weapons (in my opinion) with the % PG and CPU used by fitting a full rack of weapons along with their cap use per second while firing. The data is all using level 5 skills and the new large energy weapon changes. The Tech 2 version of each weapon is used.

Ship(PG, CPU)
Abaddon (26250, 700)
Maelstrom (26250, 800)
Rokh (18750, 975)
Hyperion (20000, 750)

Weapon (PG, CPU, Cap / Sec)
Duel Heavy (1559.25, 35.25, 3.9)
Mega (2895.75, 43.5, 5.8)
Tach (3341.25, 47.25, 6.1)

1200 (2722.5, 33, 0)
1400 (3217.5, 35.25, 0)

Duel 250 (1039.5, 43.5, 1.8)
350 (1559.7, 47.25, 2.1)
425 (2079, 55.5, 2.2)

NOTE: Notice the cap per second differences at all levels

Now for the comparison. Each entry will have 2 values, one is the % hull of PG to fit a full rack, the other is the % CPU to fit a full rack.

Weapon (% PG, % CPU)

Abaddon
Duel Heavy (47.5%, 40.3%)
Mega Beams (88.3%, 49.7%)
Tachyon (102%, 54%)

Maelstrom
1200 (83%,33%)
1400 (98.1%, 35.25%)

Rokh
Duel 250(44.4%, 35.7%)
350 (66.5%, 38.8%)
425 (88.7%, 45.5%)

Hyperion
Duel 250 (31.2%, 34.8%)
350 (46.8%, 37.8%)
425 (62.4%, 44.4%)

Feel free to draw your own conclusions but I will include mine here....

I don't think it's hard to argue that Amarr have it the toughest by far (keep in mind the cap per second as well). You might say, look at the Maelstrom it's getting close on PG too, but it can be actively shield tanked hence the increased CPU, while the Amarr need what little PG they have left to fit a tank and MWD (if they have any cap left). This comparison also points out how out of whack the fitting and cap use is for beams relative to their performance against the other weapons at all levels.

I like to come at it from a low-SP, mission runner, small scale PVP point of view so i will leave the large fleet PVP to someone else, but these numbers are insane for the Amarr compared to the relative easy of which it is to fit (and fire) the Rokh and Hyperion (and Mael to a lesser extent). A low skill Amarr pilot will have WAY WAY WAY more trouble fitting than the other races and will have to make significant tradeoffs with his fit that other races just won't have to make at low SP.

CCP Rise or Fozzie, what is the reason for the obnoxious jump in fitting and cap when going from Duel Heavy to Mega-beam given the relative performance of Mega's versus the other races weapons and even Scorch?
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#614 - 2013-05-03 07:36:25 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Rails.
Dual 250.
350
425.

Lasers.
Dual Heavy.
Mega
Tachyon.

Hey look, 425's are actually the match to Tachyons. Don't care which side of the argument you are trying to back here, as I really can't work out your point, but please, work with the actual facts.


Not really, if you'll compare different tiers, you'll notice that races have different amounts of guns, so you can't just count them up and call it a day. Instead, let me introduce you to the age-old (at least prior to Odyssey when fittings will finally change) argument: compare Heavy Beam PG and CPU with 720 arties. You'll notice that they have the exact same PG requirement, while beams have slightly higher cpu requirement. Do the same for 280mm artillery and small focused beam laser. Same story - equal PG, slightly higher cpu for beams. Now do the same for 1400mm arties and mega beams. Same story - equal PG, slightly higher cpu for beams.

As you can see, Mega Beams and 1400mms are perfectly in line with the trends of largest weapons in smaller weapon sizes. Tachyons are clearly out of line here, though. We could argue whether that's a good design choice or not, but when it comes to current game data, that's clearly the way it is and has been since beginning.

@Avald above: You can't compare the data through percentages, especially since there are massive differences between the ships. Look at the actual PG and CPU left:

Maelstrom, 1400mm: 510 PG, 518 tf
Abaddon, Mega: 3084 PG, 352 tf
Rokh, 425mm: 2118 PG, 531 tf
Hyperion, 425mm: 3368 PG, 306 tf

As you can see, both armor ships have more PG left and both shield ships have more CPU left. This correlates to their respective tank use - armor uses more PG, while shields use more CPU. The only ship standing out here is Rokh with considerable PG left after the 425mms are fitted.

You've got a point about cap, though, but I personally am considering it a balancing factor for the fact that lasers use no cargo space for ammo, nor do they reload.

Side note, I think Hyperion's cap or cap recharge is wrong - 7200 / 1250 = 5.76, Rise's post says 4.8 (like Rokh and Maelstrom). One of the figures must be wrong.
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#615 - 2013-05-03 07:39:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Debora Tsung
Antimatter Launcher wrote:
Debora Tsung wrote:
Antimatter Launcher wrote:

the 1200 dps Beam Laser Nightmares Just laughts at my Railgun Hyperion/Kronos in 0.0 farming Lol


Better compare that to a vindicator that's at least a Pirate faction ship, too....


are you kidding ?

vindicator has the highest damage bonus about all BS ingame

best other gallente bs has 25% on 8 turrets

vindi has 37,5% on 8 turrets

so the vindi as balance base for gallente BS not fair

we balanceing the weapons for all ships and not just for the vindicator.


Well, comparing a nightmare to any non pirate faction battleship is "just not fair" either, that thing has enough cap for it's four guns, doesn't it? And as You said enough DPS, too.

Better compare an Abbaddon to a Hyperion. And suddenly the Hyperion doesn't look that bad anymore. (pst, I can get 1200 out of my Raven, for a faction BS 1.2k dps is really really bad)....

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#616 - 2013-05-03 09:07:55 UTC
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:
Not really, if you'll compare different tiers, you'll notice that races have different amounts of guns, so you can't just count them up and call it a day. Instead, let me introduce you to the age-old (at least prior to Odyssey when fittings will finally change) argument: compare Heavy Beam PG and CPU with 720 arties. You'll notice that they have the exact same PG requirement, while beams have slightly higher cpu requirement. Do the same for 280mm artillery and small focused beam laser. Same story - equal PG, slightly higher cpu for beams. Now do the same for 1400mm arties and mega beams. Same story - equal PG, slightly higher cpu for beams.

As you can see, Mega Beams and 1400mms are perfectly in line with the trends of largest weapons in smaller weapon sizes. Tachyons are clearly out of line here, though. We could argue whether that's a good design choice or not, but when it comes to current game data, that's clearly the way it is and has been since beginning.

@Avald above: You can't compare the data through percentages, especially since there are massive differences between the ships. Look at the actual PG and CPU left:

Maelstrom, 1400mm: 510 PG, 518 tf
Abaddon, Mega: 3084 PG, 352 tf
Rokh, 425mm: 2118 PG, 531 tf
Hyperion, 425mm: 3368 PG, 306 tf

As you can see, both armor ships have more PG left and both shield ships have more CPU left. This correlates to their respective tank use - armor uses more PG, while shields use more CPU. The only ship standing out here is Rokh with considerable PG left after the 425mms are fitted.

You've got a point about cap, though, but I personally am considering it a balancing factor for the fact that lasers use no cargo space for ammo, nor do they reload.

Side note, I think Hyperion's cap or cap recharge is wrong - 7200 / 1250 = 5.76, Rise's post says 4.8 (like Rokh and Maelstrom). One of the figures must be wrong.

This.

The scale for LR weapons is as follow :
beam lasers :
dual heavy beam
-- empty
mega beam
tachyon beam

artilleries :
-- empty
1200mm
1400mm
-- empty

railguns :
dual 250mm
350mm
425mm
-- empty

And the dps/tracking of all these weapons confirm this pattern.
Jaina Doombringer
Grapes of Wrath
#617 - 2013-05-03 10:33:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaina Doombringer
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:
Not really, if you'll compare different tiers, you'll notice that races have different amounts of guns, so you can't just count them up and call it a day. Instead, let me introduce you to the age-old (at least prior to Odyssey when fittings will finally change) argument: compare Heavy Beam PG and CPU with 720 arties. You'll notice that they have the exact same PG requirement, while beams have slightly higher cpu requirement. Do the same for 280mm artillery and small focused beam laser. Same story - equal PG, slightly higher cpu for beams. Now do the same for 1400mm arties and mega beams. Same story - equal PG, slightly higher cpu for beams.

As you can see, Mega Beams and 1400mms are perfectly in line with the trends of largest weapons in smaller weapon sizes. Tachyons are clearly out of line here, though. We could argue whether that's a good design choice or not, but when it comes to current game data, that's clearly the way it is and has been since beginning.

@Avald above: You can't compare the data through percentages, especially since there are massive differences between the ships. Look at the actual PG and CPU left:

Maelstrom, 1400mm: 510 PG, 518 tf
Abaddon, Mega: 3084 PG, 352 tf
Rokh, 425mm: 2118 PG, 531 tf
Hyperion, 425mm: 3368 PG, 306 tf

As you can see, both armor ships have more PG left and both shield ships have more CPU left. This correlates to their respective tank use - armor uses more PG, while shields use more CPU. The only ship standing out here is Rokh with considerable PG left after the 425mms are fitted.

You've got a point about cap, though, but I personally am considering it a balancing factor for the fact that lasers use no cargo space for ammo, nor do they reload.

Side note, I think Hyperion's cap or cap recharge is wrong - 7200 / 1250 = 5.76, Rise's post says 4.8 (like Rokh and Maelstrom). One of the figures must be wrong.

This.

The scale for LR weapons is as follow :
beam lasers :
dual heavy beam
-- empty
mega beam
tachyon beam

artilleries :
-- empty
1200mm
1400mm
-- empty

railguns :
dual 250mm
350mm
425mm
-- empty

And the dps/tracking of all these weapons confirm this pattern.



Ok because you think this is just confirmed by you saying so, i try to give you some actual numbers.


Weaponstats on an unbonused ship but all Skills @ 5 will look like this:

Laser:
Dual Heavy Beam
PG /CPU /Opt /Fal /Cap /Dps /Alpha /track
1558,8 /35,25 /26K /15K /19,95 /159 /201 /0,0218
Mega Beam
PG /CPU /Opt /Fal /Cap /Dps /Alpha /track
2896,2 /43,5 /30K /20K /37,05 /166 /301 /0,0191
Tachyon Beam
PG /CPU /Opt /Fal /Cap /Dps /Alpha /track
3340,8 /47,25 /33K /25K /54,15 /170 /452 /0,0174


Hybrid:
Dual 250
PG /CPU /Opt /Fal /Cap /Dps /Alpha /track
1039,5 /43,5 /18K /15k /7,48 /157 /158 /0,0229

350 Rail
PG /CPU /Opt /Fal /Cap /Dps /Alpha /track
1559,7 /47,25 /27K /25K /10,97 /160 /210 /0,0153

425 Rail
PG /CPU /Opt /Fal /Cap /Dps /Alpha /track
2079 /55,5 /36K /30K /14,96 /162 /289 /0,0126


Projectile:
-empty-

1200 Arty
PG /CPU/Opt /Fal /Cap /Dps /Alpha /track
2722,5 /33 /24k /43,7K /0 /152 /486 /0,014

1400 Arty
PG /CPU /Opt /Fal /Cap /Dps /Alpha /track
3217,5 /35,25 /30k /43,7K /0 /155 /1021 /0,011



So sorry to say it, but your just wrong Bouh, btw nice picking cherrys again to compare the guns.

Weapons scale more like this:
Laser / Rail / Projectile
DHB / Dual250 / ----
MB / 325 / 1200
TB / 425 / 1400

And @ Mr Caitlyn. Your PG /CPU on the Hype is wrong.

After Just fitting 425 Rails on that little bugger, you get 7624PG and 417 CPU left.
While Fitting an Abaddon with Tachyons, not just Megabeams, you get -476,4 PG and 322 CPU left.

And a little fun fact: A Abaddon can't even fit a full rack of Mega Beams + a MWD + a Large t2 Rep. It would need a PG mod for this. All other slots empty btw :) Same goes for the new Apoc.

And on the Cap side of life... Hyperion gets 1031 Cap more than the Abaddon. Weapon use vs recharge looks like this:
(Only Guns!!! no MWD fitted)

Abaddon:
Cap: 7969
(Tachyon)
Cap recharge: 21,3
Cap use from Guns: 50,7
Caplife: 3:45
(Mega)
Cap recharge: 21,3
Cap use from Guns: 48,1
Caplife: 4:03

Hyperion
Cap: 9000
(425 Rail)
Caprecharge: 24
Cap use from Guns: 13,7
Caplife: Stable @ 70%
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#618 - 2013-05-03 10:51:41 UTC
Jaina Doombringer wrote:
Ok because you think this is just confirmed by you saying so, i try to give you some actual numbers.


Weaponstats on an unbonused ship but all Skills @ 5 will look like this:

Laser:
Dual Heavy Beam
PG /CPU /Opt /Fal /Cap /Dps /Alpha /track
1558,8 /35,25 /26K /15K /19,95 /159 /201 /0,0218
Mega Beam
PG /CPU /Opt /Fal /Cap /Dps /Alpha /track
2896,2 /43,5 /30K /20K /37,05 /166 /301 /0,0191
Tachyon Beam
PG /CPU /Opt /Fal /Cap /Dps /Alpha /track
3340,8 /47,25 /33K /25K /54,15 /170 /452 /0,0174


Hybrid:
Dual 250
PG /CPU /Opt /Fal /Cap /Dps /Alpha /track
1039,5 /43,5 /18K /15k /7,48 /157 /158 /0,0229

350 Rail
PG /CPU /Opt /Fal /Cap /Dps /Alpha /track
1559,7 /47,25 /27K /25K /10,97 /160 /210 /0,0153

425 Rail
PG /CPU /Opt /Fal /Cap /Dps /Alpha /track
2079 /55,5 /36K /30K /14,96 /162 /289 /0,0126


Projectile:
-empty-

1200 Arty
PG /CPU/Opt /Fal /Cap /Dps /Alpha /track
2722,5 /33 /24k /43,7K /0 /152 /486 /0,014

1400 Arty
PG /CPU /Opt /Fal /Cap /Dps /Alpha /track
3217,5 /35,25 /30k /43,7K /0 /155 /1021 /0,011



So sorry to say it, but your just wrong Bouh, btw nice picking cherrys again to compare the guns.

Weapons scale more like this:
Laser / Rail / Projectile
DHB / Dual250 / ----
MB / 325 / 1200
TB / 425 / 1400

Nice compilation of stats actually ; it's sad though you didn't read them to take your conclusion and instead based your scale on the completely irrelevant number of weapons in each class.

Weapons scales as I said, because their stats says so. Basing a scale on names or number of weapons in each class is just stupid.

Also, the Abaddon is designed to fit plates, not armor repper.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#619 - 2013-05-03 11:02:24 UTC
Jaina Doombringer wrote:


Ok because you think this is just confirmed by you saying so, i try to give you some actual numbers.



Its not THINK. Its somethign that people that have been here since 2003 remember CCP developers stating. ITs factual, its intentional by CCP, or at least was 10 years ago.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Jaina Doombringer
Grapes of Wrath
#620 - 2013-05-03 11:04:22 UTC
Same goes for you.
Those weapons are actualy not identical in every way. You just focus on DPS and tracking.
And even if you leave that nice Large Armor Rep aside, and fit a plate, you get screwed by a Capbooster that you couldn't fit without another mod.