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[Odyssey] Large Energy Turrets

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Apostrof Ahashion
Doomheim
#541 - 2013-04-30 08:56:09 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Asking for amarr to be cap easy is asking for homogenization.
It's like asking for Minmatar to have hit points, for Gallente to have range, or like asking for Caldari to have tracking.


Alphastorms have the same ehp as Hellcats, since they can use their rig slots for something other than discharge elutriation. Tempest has more ehp (even more armor) than Apocalypse and is still much faster, short-range Gallente have new Dominix that can do shitload of damage at sniping ranges with sentry drones with awesome tracking that you can assign to a target caller, Caldari and tracking part of the comment i dont quite understand.


Scorpion got a cap buff and now has the same cap regen as Abaddon.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#542 - 2013-04-30 09:11:23 UTC
Jake Pappottess wrote:
One possible addition for lasers would be the addition of crystals to add damage types, the Caldari can switch between the four damage types. I believe crystals like a tractor/force crystal could cause kinetic damage, and possibly some type of explosive damage crystal. Yes one problem with lasers is Cap use (and it is a huge problem), but also the limit of lasers in predictable damage types. Perhaps an alternative could be an increase in base shield and armor damage.



Explosive damage at scorchrange! YES PLEASE!

And yeah, mostly any beam is obsoleted by scorch dealing the same damage at range with way superior tracking, so why bother with the drawbacks of beams. Though scorch is the reason for laserboats to be awesome in the first place.

I can't see any good niche for the beams though, would maybe fit them if they were more like laserartillery, massive alpha with great range and tiring RoF. If in such a scenario they'd still keep their sustained dps, they'd be glorious.

Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#543 - 2013-04-30 09:25:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Veshta Yoshida
Naomi Knight wrote:
..I wish they could make some racial bonuses for the ships over the current bonuses, that could solve this problem easily , while keeping lasers not wanted by other races...

Not only that but it could make up for racial differences being designed out of the system entirely (Amarr kiters and drone boats, Minmatar brawlers etc.).

Previously suggested that BC, BS, Navy and T2 be given unique racial bonuses that attempts to close the biggest hole of a given race which in Amarr's case is now capacitor .. my suggestion was for Amarr to have the bonus of "batteries have twice the effect" but in retrospect a full doubling might be a bit much so say +50%, solves the immediate cap issues in most cases and allows for more benefits to be gained from lowslots (relays) with bigger pool affected.

Still have no thought out ideas about what the other three could/should have, no real experience with them so unaware of what holes they have .. mind you, I do not mean weaknesses but flaws that have arisen by design/balancing process.

Most recent brainstorm provided me with:
- Minmatar's tied to agility. Their speed has been reduced a lot since their heyday (lol-Nano age) and they have several ships being nudged towards brawling, agility would allow them to make the most of what speed they have as well as increase viability of closer range alpha strikes (faster align).
- Caldari tied to eWar use. With the promised eWar overhaul still in the Soon™ column, why not increase cap use of all such modules by a factor of 3-4 to minimize abuse by anyone with a spare mid (looking at you TD!) and giving Caldari a hefty cap reduction on all non-tank midslot modules (racial eWar platforms (f.ex. Arbi line) would have similar reduction for that one module).
- Gallente tied to armour tank. Suggest flipping it by turning current rep amount bonuses into cap reductions and applying a nanite efficiency bonus to above mentioned hulls that counts towards both local and remote repair.
Apostrof Ahashion
Doomheim
#544 - 2013-04-30 11:00:45 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
For anyone who wishes this change was more exhaustive - part of what was nice about this solution is that it doesn't disrupt any future efforts to look at energy weapons as a whole. That said, the near near future does not contain such a rework, so any suggestions about crystals or other large problems related to the weapon probably won't have a huge effect on our plans for Odyssey.

Hope that for now this makes life a bit more comfortable until we do have the time to come back and look at the whole thing.


I dont really understand this at all. How would giving lasers a significant buff to cap use prevent you from "look at energy weapons as a whole" in "the future". How much time and energy goes into changing a couple of numbers? Fix it now, revert the change when "the future" comes.
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#545 - 2013-04-30 12:33:04 UTC
Apostrof Ahashion wrote:

Scorpion got a cap buff and now has the same cap regen as Abaddon.


The Scorpion is still worthless without an ECM boost. nobody uses a Scorpion as a DPS Plattform.

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#546 - 2013-04-30 12:35:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Avald Midular
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Naomi Knight wrote:
..I wish they could make some racial bonuses for the ships over the current bonuses, that could solve this problem easily , while keeping lasers not wanted by other races...

Not only that but it could make up for racial differences being designed out of the system entirely (Amarr kiters and drone boats, Minmatar brawlers etc.).

Previously suggested that BC, BS, Navy and T2 be given unique racial bonuses that attempts to close the biggest hole of a given race which in Amarr's case is now capacitor .. my suggestion was for Amarr to have the bonus of "batteries have twice the effect" but in retrospect a full doubling might be a bit much so say +50%, solves the immediate cap issues in most cases and allows for more benefits to be gained from lowslots (relays) with bigger pool affected.

Still have no thought out ideas about what the other three could/should have, no real experience with them so unaware of what holes they have .. mind you, I do not mean weaknesses but flaws that have arisen by design/balancing process.

Most recent brainstorm provided me with:
- Minmatar's tied to agility. Their speed has been reduced a lot since their heyday (lol-Nano age) and they have several ships being nudged towards brawling, agility would allow them to make the most of what speed they have as well as increase viability of closer range alpha strikes (faster align).
- Caldari tied to eWar use. With the promised eWar overhaul still in the Soon™ column, why not increase cap use of all such modules by a factor of 3-4 to minimize abuse by anyone with a spare mid (looking at you TD!) and giving Caldari a hefty cap reduction on all non-tank midslot modules (racial eWar platforms (f.ex. Arbi line) would have similar reduction for that one module).
- Gallente tied to armour tank. Suggest flipping it by turning current rep amount bonuses into cap reductions and applying a nanite efficiency bonus to above mentioned hulls that counts towards both local and remote repair.


The Amarr being being taxed mid-slots/rigs for cap is precisely the problem we're trying to solve. With your change they'd still have to equip one or more batteries that other races wouldn't have to. It also does nothing to solve the other PG module tax Amarr face to even fit their weapons. Lasers are broken, lets not cover it up.
Apostrof Ahashion
Doomheim
#547 - 2013-04-30 12:46:02 UTC
Debora Tsung wrote:
Apostrof Ahashion wrote:

Scorpion got a cap buff and now has the same cap regen as Abaddon.


The Scorpion is still worthless without an ECM boost. nobody uses a Scorpion as a DPS Plattform.


Who said that it was?
The point was that Scorpion is practically cap stable and they buffed its capacitor. For what reason? And Abbadon is still the same old 1 min of cap with batteries and 2 x discharge rigs.
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#548 - 2013-04-30 12:53:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Debora Tsung
Avald Midular wrote:
The Amarr being being taxed mid-slots/rigs for cap is precisely the problem we're trying to solve. With your change they'd still have to equip one or more batteries that other races wouldn't have to. It also does nothing to solve the other PG module tax Amarr face to even fit their weapons. Lasers are broken, lets not cover it up.


I'd enhance the tracking of laser turrets while at the same time keeping or even increasing the horrendous energy consumption of laser turrets to set the weapon system apart fom rails/blasters.

That way the laser based weaon systems would be set apart from the other turret based weapon systems, right now they feel a litle bit like Rails that don't use ammo. :/

Then You could use either use the extra batteries for sustained laserfire without having to fear of never hitting anything at all, or choose to use trackng enhancer for supreme dps application but only over a short time due to high cap usage.

PS: My post might be flawed due to bad grammar, I hope it was understandable despite that.

EDIT: In hindsight to make that feasible the cap bonus the batteries and/or cap rechargers give might have to be increased just that tiny little bit...

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#549 - 2013-04-30 12:57:35 UTC
Apostrof Ahashion wrote:
Debora Tsung wrote:
Apostrof Ahashion wrote:

Scorpion got a cap buff and now has the same cap regen as Abaddon.


The Scorpion is still worthless without an ECM boost. nobody uses a Scorpion as a DPS Plattform.


Who said that it was?
The point was that Scorpion is practically cap stable and they buffed its capacitor. For what reason? And Abbadon is still the same old 1 min of cap with batteries and 2 x discharge rigs.


Oh, that... :/

Sry. a 9 hours shift at the office can do that to You. o_O

Yeah, had an Abbadon once. I saw the cap usage, had a little hysterical laugh and then sold it again. :/

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#550 - 2013-04-30 13:05:39 UTC
Debora Tsung wrote:
Avald Midular wrote:
The Amarr being being taxed mid-slots/rigs for cap is precisely the problem we're trying to solve. With your change they'd still have to equip one or more batteries that other races wouldn't have to. It also does nothing to solve the other PG module tax Amarr face to even fit their weapons. Lasers are broken, lets not cover it up.


I'd enhance the tracking of laser turrets while at the same time keeping or even increasing the horrendous energy consumption of laser turrets to set the weapon system apart fom rails/blasters.

That way the laser based weaon systems would be set apart from the other turret based weapon systems, right now they feel a litle bit like Rails that don't use ammo. :/

Then You could use either use the extra batteries for sustained laserfire without having to fear of never hitting anything at all, or choose to use trackng enhancer for supreme dps application but only over a short time due to high cap usage.

PS: My post might be flawed due to bad grammar, I hope it was understandable despite that.

EDIT: In hindsight to make that feasible the cap bonus the batteries and/or cap rechargers give might have to be increased just that tiny little bit...


No just.....No.

Rails have 1/3 the cap cost and are much easier to fit PG-wise. Medium Rails definitely need to be looked at, don't get me wrong. There is no excuse to having triple the cap cost as the next guy and not getting anything substantial to compensate except horrendous PG requirements. They used to have much more dps as a tradeoff but that has since been nerfed, so lets nerf the costs as well, it's a no-brainer.
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#551 - 2013-04-30 13:32:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Debora Tsung
@CCP

The forum ate my post, AGAIN! Can You please remove this useless draft "feature" because it doesn't draft anything. All it does is to set my post back to a point were I didn't even start writing. >.<

EDIT: @ Avald Midular - If I remember that I'll try and answer to Your post at a later time.

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Alkyria Decile
Delstar Corp
#552 - 2013-05-01 08:30:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Alkyria Decile
I see a lot of people that want even better fitting and cap use out of lasers but personally i think it might be neat if instead they just got some more tracking/range and a little more damage instead. So people using non lasers use tracking computers to compensate for range while amarr use cap rechargers so they can fire, and in lows you use fitting mods to fit the big dps guns instead of using damage mods to make you big guns high dps.

A total re-work of all lasers to work in this fashion is probably way out of scope for odyssey but it would be nice if weapons systems weren't always missiles + bcu's and possibly painters or guns + heat sink* + tracking enhancer/computer.

I figure if they could get lasers + cap + pwg fittings to be about equal to other turrets in current set ups it would go a good ways against the ever so dreaded homogenization.
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#553 - 2013-05-01 13:22:55 UTC
Alkyria Decile wrote:
I see a lot of people that want even better fitting and cap use out of lasers but personally i think it might be neat if instead they just got some more tracking/range and a little more damage instead. So people using non lasers use tracking computers to compensate for range while amarr use cap rechargers so they can fire, and in lows you use fitting mods to fit the big dps guns instead of using damage mods to make you big guns high dps.

A total re-work of all lasers to work in this fashion is probably way out of scope for odyssey but it would be nice if weapons systems weren't always missiles + bcu's and possibly painters or guns + heat sink* + tracking enhancer/computer.

I figure if they could get lasers + cap + pwg fittings to be about equal to other turrets in current set ups it would go a good ways against the ever so dreaded homogenization.


They tried that already, lasers got nerfed but their fitting costs did not. With your setup, what's to stop Amarr from just fitting damage mods as well on the ships with more Lows?
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#554 - 2013-05-01 14:45:19 UTC
Debora Tsung wrote:
@CCP

The forum ate my post, AGAIN! Can You please remove this useless draft "feature" because it doesn't draft anything. All it does is to set my post back to a point were I didn't even start writing. >.<

EDIT: @ Avald Midular - If I remember that I'll try and answer to Your post at a later time.


I often copy mine before i press post button especially long ones you can't be arsed to rewrite and the draft is a bit annoying

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Pathogen Ascention
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#555 - 2013-05-01 18:46:03 UTC
Alkyria Decile wrote:
I see a lot of people that want even better fitting and cap use out of lasers but personally i think it might be neat if instead they just got some more tracking/range and a little more damage instead. So people using non lasers use tracking computers to compensate for range while amarr use cap rechargers so they can fire, and in lows you use fitting mods to fit the big dps guns instead of using damage mods to make you big guns high dps.

A total re-work of all lasers to work in this fashion is probably way out of scope for odyssey but it would be nice if weapons systems weren't always missiles + bcu's and possibly painters or guns + heat sink* + tracking enhancer/computer.

I figure if they could get lasers + cap + pwg fittings to be about equal to other turrets in current set ups it would go a good ways against the ever so dreaded homogenization.


Yes, we want our fitting issues worked on. You're right, it's true, tracking comps are used by other races, but not to the extent that we have to use cap/pg fittings. The kicker is that you can take the tracking stuff off and still hit. Remove the cap and pg stuff and the guns don't fire, leading to "I canna hit **** cap'n."

We're tired of this **** being pushed off yet again, so we're going to bring up everything yet again in the hope that someone reads it and does something.
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#556 - 2013-05-01 20:57:24 UTC
Debora Tsung wrote:

I'd enhance the tracking of laser turrets while at the same time keeping or even increasing the horrendous energy consumption of laser turrets to set the weapon system apart fom rails/blasters.

Lasers already have the best tracking by a clear margin.
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#557 - 2013-05-01 21:04:28 UTC
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:
Debora Tsung wrote:

I'd enhance the tracking of laser turrets while at the same time keeping or even increasing the horrendous energy consumption of laser turrets to set the weapon system apart fom rails/blasters.

Lasers already have the best tracking by a clear margin.


Umm no blasters do.

But I do agree they don't need any more tracking as long as their PG and cap requirements are so out of whack with anything else in the game.
The CandyGirl
Candy's Toy Shop
#558 - 2013-05-01 23:17:04 UTC
The way i see it there are really 2 options.

1) fix lasers so they are more in line fitting and cap usage wise to other weapons.

Or

2) buff beam laser damage by a lot.... and give every amarr ship a huge cap booster bay. Make tachs out DPS everything sub cap while they are firing. Also have it so the apoc is the only bs that can fit 8 Tachs barely with no power grid mods/ implants

Being a smartass is always better than being a dumbass!
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#559 - 2013-05-02 00:45:40 UTC
The CandyGirl wrote:
The way i see it there are really 2 options.

1) fix lasers so they are more in line fitting and cap usage wise to other weapons.

Or

2) buff beam laser damage by a lot.... and give every amarr ship a huge cap booster bay. Make tachs out DPS everything sub cap while they are firing. Also have it so the apoc is the only bs that can fit 8 Tachs barely with no power grid mods/ implants


1) Not equal to other races but at least in the same hemisphere (not DOUBLE the PG and TRIPLE the cap usage as rails).

2) Like I said above, they've tried that and eventually they nerfed laser damage back in line with other weapons but didn't change their fitting. Will likely not happen again as they'd have to make every Amarr ship be 8 turret or severely nerf the PG of Nightmares and Paladins.
raawe
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#560 - 2013-05-02 11:54:56 UTC
Flying amarr ships with lasers will go something like this..... So baddon with pulse lasers rolls to field, fires 3 times...does pathetic dps and caps out.....seriously something needs to be changed, buff dmg, reduce cap usage, increase range/tracking....anything. I really like amarr ships but after expansion it will be impossible to fly them and be efficient at anything (except maybe caping out )