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[Odyssey] Large Energy Turrets

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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#341 - 2013-04-17 15:39:17 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Yet, the abaddon never had problem being extremely effective despite the lack of a cap bonus. That was the argument of all the "remove cap bonus" crowd.


Yep, because you totally heard that on these forums a lot. Oh wait...

The Abaddon is good at PvP. Effectiveness there does not necessarily translate to being effective at pve. In fact it tends to be quite the opposite.

It has short term advantages. Resists and damage. Unlike the Apoc, it is not meant or designed for continuous fire. The Apoc was. So naturally people are upset when they are told that it, being the only good pve boat we have, is now nigh useless at that.

Are we supposed to be expected to bring along a remote cap transfer ship just to do level 4s? Is that supposed to be the norm now? And if it is, why does no other race have to keep these kind of issues in mind just to pve? Why are we the redheaded stepchild?

There is no good reason. That's it, flat out. All of this absurd cap weakness is only there because it's a sacred cow. There is no legitimate not to fix it.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Regolis
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#342 - 2013-04-17 16:41:13 UTC
the numbers for the capacitors were posted in both the Amarr BS thread and this one...

Explain to me how there is justification for Caldari and Minmatar have capacitors within 5 to 10 % of Amarr ships
when the Amarrian ships consume so much more of their cap...

Explain to me why a MWD on an Amarr ship is paramount to removing half the weapons of the other races

Why are the Gallente (Usually known for their ability to field ships with utility slots) Getting a BS with 8 lows and
Amarr isn't?

I mean I guess it's ok that Minmatar and Caldari can MWD around still maintain full DPS while Amarr ships putter around behind them and can only fire for 2 min

If my cap is going to break that bloody fast my guns better do one heck of alot more damage.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#343 - 2013-04-17 16:54:13 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
It has short term advantages. Resists and damage. Unlike the Apoc, it is not meant or designed for continuous fire. The Apoc was. So naturally people are upset when they are told that it, being the only good pve boat we have, is now nigh useless at that.

Ok, so all these complaints are because of pve...

So we should through out the window all the balance between ships just because a pve abaddon is not cap stable ?

And that's not even considering that cap stable fit is mostly ineffective for pve, or at least very inoptimized.
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#344 - 2013-04-17 17:56:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Avald Midular
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
It has short term advantages. Resists and damage. Unlike the Apoc, it is not meant or designed for continuous fire. The Apoc was. So naturally people are upset when they are told that it, being the only good pve boat we have, is now nigh useless at that.

Ok, so all these complaints are because of pve...

So we should through out the window all the balance between ships just because a pve abaddon is not cap stable ?

And that's not even considering that cap stable fit is mostly ineffective for pve, or at least very inoptimized.


So because Amarr ships are strong in a fleet we shouldn't be asking for fixes to them being broken in PvE or small/solo gameplay?

There isn't any balance between the ships, that's what we're saying (with facts and numbers and not opinions) and no Amarr BS, not just Abaddon, is cap stable while fireing anything but Scorch, let alone MWD, tackle, or armor repper and yet Amarr receive no addition to capactors or recharge over races that use no cap to fire.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#345 - 2013-04-17 18:14:52 UTC
As someone who is totally cross trained, I'm fully in favor of giving any Amarr ship that previously had the laser cap use bonus an extra bonus - e.g. 7.5% bonus to tracking and 10% bonus to laser cap use per level. Basically, we are talking about the Apoc here.

Short version is that people suddenly realize that the useless bonus was not useless.

P.S. - while the game should not be balanced around PVE, cap boosters are terrible for sustained activity. Any time the ship is not shooting is lost ISK. If an Amarr pilot wants to gimp other aspects of his ship by fitting multiple cap mods so he can run his tank and fire continuously, he should be able to. Every other race can. Yes, there is the Geddon, but that is a drone ship and lasers are the Amarr primary weapons.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#346 - 2013-04-17 18:20:54 UTC
Avald Midular wrote:
So because Amarr ships are strong in a fleet we shouldn't be asking for fixes to them being broken in PvE or small/solo gameplay?

There isn't any balance between the ships, that's what we're saying (with facts and numbers and not opinions) and no Amarr BS, not just Abaddon, is cap stable while fireing anything but Scorch, let alone MWD, tackle, or armor repper and yet Amarr receive no addition to capactors or recharge over races that use no cap to fire.

You are not asking it for solo/small gang gameplay, because they are already quite very effective in this area (hello abaddon and armageddon).

So yeah, that leave pve as the only drawback of amarr, and still, that's only because you want to use something else than pulse with scorch.

That's a cosmetic change in fact...

BTW, the Paladin can already fit Tachyon and almost whatever else you want for pve.
Naso Aya
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#347 - 2013-04-17 18:32:53 UTC
First off, the Armageddon is irrelevant to this thread. It is no longer a laser ship.

Secondly, even with scorch pulse in PvE, that's the equivalent of a second (or third) armor repairer to fire your guns. Let's ask the Hyperion how well triple armor rep's are for your cap. Oh, they suck more than a hooker and a hose? Didn't see that coming.

Paladins can just NOW fit Tachyons, seeing as before the 20% reduction in PWG they needed a 2% implant just to fit a single armor repairer with 4 Tachs. Also the paladin is a tech II ship, with a very specific niche, (as all tech 2's are designed to have) with a much longer skill train. As nice as this adjustment is for the Paladin, I don't see people complaining that it's "too OP and I can't compete with it's PvE ability anymore!"
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#348 - 2013-04-17 18:42:18 UTC
I'm only saying that if laser color and tachyon are of so much importance for you, the Paladin can already do it without messing with all the pvp balance.
Naso Aya
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#349 - 2013-04-17 18:47:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Naso Aya
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
I'm only saying that if laser color and tachyon are of so much importance for you, the Paladin can already do it without messing with all the pvp balance.


I'm sorry, I think this is more accurate, and what you're actually saying:

Bouh Revetoile wrote:
I'm only saying that if laser color and tachyon are of so much importance for you, the extremely expensive tech 2 ship that takes an extra few months of skills to even use fly already do level 4 missions without threatening my precious caldari/gallente rails. The Amarr are to OP to have a viable BS sniper platform.
stub Tokila
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#350 - 2013-04-17 18:57:43 UTC
progodlegend wrote:
progodlegend wrote:
Not enough with the battleship guns. Currently the massive cap need for these guns is keeping amarr battleships from being used again. Amarr already suffer from having completely predictable and easy to tank damage types ("they are forming a-hacs? just tank em/thermal, gg we win").

But the battleship guns cap need almost make amarr concepts unviable. I know that a lot of people have always mentioned how the amarr are at a disadvantage because most of their ships are missing a bonus (10% reduction in cap need for guns, where instead they could have a useful bonus like every other ship in every other race). The truth of the matter is, you just can't run an Amarr concept without that bonus, unless you make serious fitting decisions to reduce the cap need of your guns.

The most popular amarr concepts of the past 3 years have been Zealots, Abaddons, and Armageddons. Zealots and Armageddons both get a -10% reduction in cap need for guns, and even then, I can tell you from personal experience that the Armageddon still ran out of cap boosters quite quickly in any fight lasting longer than 5-10 minutes. Then you have the Abaddon, for which the most successful iteration of this concept had to use TWO TECH 2 RIGS just to make the guns cap need managable, and make the ship last more than 5 minutes.

[Abaddon, PL hellcat]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L

Large Anti-EM Pump I
Large Energy Discharge Elutriation II
Large Energy Discharge Elutriation II



Without the rigs, the Abaddon just eats through cap boosters in 5 minutes or less, turning the abaddon into a small gang ship at best. There are times when the ship would work without the two gun rigs, but usually it was just because alliances or FC's were using it inefficiently and not firing their guns all the time.

The fact of the matter is, there is a huge upswing in cap need for all BS sized modules compared to cruiser sized modules. Look at the difference between a 10mn microwarp drive and 100mn micro warpdrive. The 10mn MWD takes 13.5 cap per second, while the 100mn MWD takes 54.1 cap per second. Most BS get double the cap recharge rate of their cruiser cousins, but many BS modules take 3-5x the amount of cap as cruiser modules.

The main point is, the abaddon shouldn't need two rigs dedicated to reducing their gun's cap need just to last more than 5 minutes in a battle (including cap boosters). It's terribly unbalanced and it's part of the reason people have stopped using hellcats.


Bump.

To update this I'm going to point out the problem with Amarr battleship guns using more numbers and maths.

Using all level 5 skills, a Neutron blaster II uses 2.2 cap per second (shooting antimatter), while a Mega Pulse Laser II (shooting multifrequency) uses 6.5 cap per second. That's essentially 3x as much. With the proposed 10% reduction in cap use, they will be using 5.85 cap per second. On an abaddon, a full rack of pulse lasers shooting either multifrequency or scorch (the only two crystals they use) will still take up 46 cap per second after the proposed changes. Shooting just it's guns, WITH NO OTHER MODULES ON. If that Abaddon has an MWD fit (giving it a -25% reduction in cap, a standard fitting choice though) the cap on that abaddon will last for 3 minutes 14 seconds. How long does it last now? 2 minute and 42 seconds. Congratulations, you have given a ship 35 extra seconds of just using it's guns, not counting any other active modules.

The cap requirements for amarr battleship guns are absurd, and are not fixable by just a 10% reduction in pulse lasers. The change needs to be significant. A realistic change would be bringing the cap requirement for mega pulse lasers down to just above double the neutron blaster requirement (which would take up 4.4 cap per second with all level 5 skills instead of 6.5 cap per second). If i'm correct, that means bringing the base cap requirement for pulse lasers down from 40 to 25 cap, or a 37.5% reduction. I know that sounds like a massive reduction, but the amount of cap used is still huge, as with a rack of 8 guns, it still will take 35 cap per second to just run it's guns, which is a good bit more than it's natural recharge. But at least, with decent cap booster management you can fight for longer than 5 minutes.

tl;dr:

To sum up both posts. The cap requirement changes for battleship sized lasers are pathetic and don't do anything. Amarr battleships suck because they either need a -10% cap reduction bonus to function(a wasted bonus, basically any ship with this bonus only gets one real bonus), or they need to make massive fitting decisions to reduce cap need for their guns. Specifically I'm focusing on pulse lasers, as they are the most used guns for Amarr. You need to have a significant reduction in the cap need for Pulse lasers, 37.5% is my recommendation, because it brings mega pulse lasers to just above double the cap requirement of Neutron blasters, which is their closest cousin. Anything less than 35% is basically not a change at all.

this makes a lot of sense
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#351 - 2013-04-17 19:01:46 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
I'm only saying that if laser color and tachyon are of so much importance for you, the Paladin can already do it without messing with all the pvp balance.


I will gladly agree once the other 3 races have the same requirement.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#352 - 2013-04-17 19:03:51 UTC
Naso Aya wrote:
oouin ouin my ship is not better than all the others it's unfair !!

I too can be a child.

But I'm done now talking with carebears who don't care about balance.
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#353 - 2013-04-17 20:14:39 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Short version is that people suddenly realize that the useless bonus was not useless.

Well, short version was always about incorporating that "bonus" into guns themselves so that:
1. You may have a reason to mount lasers on ships with no specific weapon bonuses;
2. You can have gunships that can fit different roles instead of just a single one (and boring at that) for so many hulls.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#354 - 2013-04-17 20:22:33 UTC
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Short version is that people suddenly realize that the useless bonus was not useless.

Well, short version was always about incorporating that "bonus" into guns themselves so that:
1. You may have a reason to mount lasers on ships with no specific weapon bonuses;
2. You can have gunships that can fit different roles instead of just a single one (and boring at that) for so many hulls.


I think the majority said it was unnecessary not useless, it was a bonus other races didn't need to waste a slot on and only covered up how broken lasers are.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#355 - 2013-04-17 20:29:23 UTC
Shingorash wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Ayla Crenshaw wrote:
I don't have some lofty expectations, I just want a ship that can run missions without cap boosters. From what I heard this wish is shared by PvPers too - to fight without capping yourself out by, well, fighting, without even a neut applied.

Armageddon will be the godly mission runner amarr lacked before.

As for the capacitor, the damage projection of laser allow amarr ship to not overuse their prop mods. A gallente ship for example will use most of its cap only to move at range, and will be almost caped out before even firing. Same goes for minmatar, as they can't outbrawl anything by standing still.


Also dont forget how much cheaper the ammo is on the basis you have to swap it out once in a blue moon. :)


I certainly don't consider ammo cheap. I don't know what strange world you live in, but most of my frigates end up carrying 1.5m worth of crystals around that get to usually only 5-10% damage, after which my frigate usually turns into a ball of fire. It's kinda like carrying 20 reloads of ammo in an ammo based ship. Sure, they'll last forever, but my ship doesn't usually.

Usually people will tell you to only carry a couple reloads. With crystals there is no choice to do that.

Y'know, just pointing out that ammo isn't as cheap as you make it out to be, unless the ship lasts for the full lifetime of the crystals... which doens't usually happen in smaller scale PvP.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#356 - 2013-04-17 20:49:01 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:

Short version is that people suddenly realize that the useless bonus was not useless.


Personally, I never felt that the bonus was useless. I just wanted to know why it was that we had a bonus that was required just to fire our guns.

I can agree that lasers should cost more cap than any other weapon system. Hell, I can even agree that double hybrids would be reasonable. I don't see why, though, that some cost even triple the capacitor value of comparable hybrids. I don't see why we had to waste an entire bonus just on cap use, and still come out worse off. And it's not like hybrids are terrible or anything.

We're already making tradeoffs verus other weapons. We have (short range weapons) superior damage projection in exchange for inferior tracking, ammo use in exchange for capacitor use, and middle of the line base damage to balance it out. And for long range we get superior tracking and DPS in exchange for range and outright alpha damage, and again, cap use for ammo use (perhaps long range weapons can use some rebalancing). But the cap use isn't balanced versus ammo use. Perhaps they should increase the volume of all ammunition by 200%. You can fit 1/3rd the amount of ammo in guns, 1/3rd the amount of ammo in hold. Perhaps that would be balanced against the current cap use of lasers, because at least filling your cargohold with ammo doens't prevent you from running everything else on your ship.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#357 - 2013-04-17 23:08:21 UTC
Quote:
Ok, so all these complaints are because of pve...

So we should through out the window all the balance between ships just because a pve abaddon is not cap stable ?

And that's not even considering that cap stable fit is mostly ineffective for pve, or at least very inoptimized.


Are you even listening to me? No, we should change things because the Apoc isn't cap stable. Whether the Abaddon is or is not is irrelevant, but if the Apoc is not cap stable, then Amarr lose their only stable mission platform. Earlier I saw you say that we shouldn't be expecting to do missions in a T1 ship at all... Yeah, you really close to getting reported for trolling.

And cap stable for pve is the basemark, outright required in many cases. So you either have no clue at all what you are talking about, or are deliberately trying to derail these threads.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#358 - 2013-04-17 23:20:32 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Are you even listening to me? No, we should change things because the Apoc isn't cap stable. Whether the Abaddon is or is not is irrelevant, but if the Apoc is not cap stable, then Amarr lose their only stable mission platform. Earlier I saw you say that we shouldn't be expecting to do missions in a T1 ship at all... Yeah, you really close to getting reported for trolling.

And cap stable for pve is the basemark, outright required in many cases. So you either have no clue at all what you are talking about, or are deliberately trying to derail these threads.

No ship ? Future Armageddon will be cap stable. Yes, it don't have bonuses to lasers, but that's more demanding already.

BTW, the apoc will have more cap than the abaddon. Its capacitor have been buffed. Combined to laser cap use reduction, you can expect it to come close to gallente ships.

And who is the troll ? You, who claim "I don't care about pvp balance, I want my lazor ship to be better at pve", or me ? You are not even requesting that something for the amarr lineup, but specificaly with lasers, and in a T1 hull, because. So tell me more about trolls please.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#359 - 2013-04-17 23:41:26 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Are you even listening to me? No, we should change things because the Apoc isn't cap stable. Whether the Abaddon is or is not is irrelevant, but if the Apoc is not cap stable, then Amarr lose their only stable mission platform. Earlier I saw you say that we shouldn't be expecting to do missions in a T1 ship at all... Yeah, you really close to getting reported for trolling.

And cap stable for pve is the basemark, outright required in many cases. So you either have no clue at all what you are talking about, or are deliberately trying to derail these threads.

No ship ? Future Armageddon will be cap stable. Yes, it don't have bonuses to lasers, but that's more demanding already.

BTW, the apoc will have more cap than the abaddon. Its capacitor have been buffed. Combined to laser cap use reduction, you can expect it to come close to gallente ships.

And who is the troll ? You, who claim "I don't care about pvp balance, I want my lazor ship to be better at pve", or me ? You are not even requesting that something for the amarr lineup, but specificaly with lasers, and in a T1 hull, because. So tell me more about trolls please.


"Derp, the drone boat will be cap stable, Amarr should shut up!" Yeah, once again, you are flat out not paying attention. I already detailed how a droneboat cannot be a dedicated missioner until they fix drones and rat AI, since it primaries drones like they were a fleet of tiny logi.

And the apoc is getting an overall nerf of about 45% to the active firing time it had before this so called "buff". Which is precisely what everyone is complaining about, and clearly CCP agrees to the extent that they buffed lasers in the first post of this very thread!

I doubt very much that any gallente (see, there is that word again, I told you in the other thread) can fire it's guns for 115 seconds (and that is with cap rigs and mods) unless they dedicate multiple midslots to cap boosters. So that is an outright lie.

I do care about pvp balance, at what point did I say I didn't? I did however, at numerous times say that being able to fire our guns for longer does little to effect pvp. So yeah, you are the troll, objectively and subjectively. Really, learn dialectial argument techniques, they really help. :)

Sure, I'll tell you more about trolls. You have to use fire to kill them, but failing that, enough forum reports will do in a pinch. :)

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#360 - 2013-04-17 23:48:55 UTC
Quote from the amarr BS thread, more appropriate here I think :
Ruze wrote:
As someone who's trying to view opinions here, are you saying that there is no imbalance between beams and their use on the new ships, and that if we were to make them use less cap or have lower fitting requirements, this would somehow unbalance the relationship between Amarr battleships and Gallente battleships?

Exactly

What I'm saying is that the problem of beams is deeper than only PG and cap use, and that I'm indeed afraid that if tachyon (not beams) are too easy to fit or don't use enough cap, then they will be plain better than railguns per se. Because tachyon caracteristics are above those of railguns except for PG and cap use.

Not only gallente railgun BS would be threaten (they already aren't that good anyway), but the rokh too ; because the abaddon is higly capable of reaching the level of tank of the rokh, so if tachyon are better than 425mm railguns, the only remaining strength of the rokh wil be shield buffer tank strength against armor buffer ones, minus range and dps...

The problem of beams lie in their effective range being sandwiched between pulse range and railgun range. Their isn't any range for them to live in unless you rebalance the link between pulse and railguns.