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[Odyssey] Large Energy Turrets

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Ayla Crenshaw
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#321 - 2013-04-17 08:43:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Ayla Crenshaw
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Ayla Crenshaw wrote:
A straw man? Really?

Reductio ad absurdum type of arguments are so last decade...

Absurd ? Certainly. But certainly not more than the requests here.

Cap cost and fitting are the identity drawbacks of lasers, exactly as much as short range is a drawback of blasters. Hence why I think asking for these drawback to be removed is, if not absurd, to take with a lot of care.

The absurd come when you actually look at the game and see that amarr ships are definitely among the best everywhere. So why should they have their drawbacks reduced ? To which goal should they be reduced ?


Watch the latest Alliance Tournament.

If Amarr are among the best why the hell weren't they used (nearly) at all? It was all Minmatar, Gallente, Vindicators with lots of Merlins, Tengus and an occassional Widow setup. Amarr were represented by a Vengeance or Absolution here and there and I think one HAM Legion rush team.

There was another problem with "among" in your argument, pointed out in Battleship thread. They are "among" the best, not "THE" best. That means there's a better choice for nearly any task there is, and why would you willingly use something suboptimal?
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#322 - 2013-04-17 08:56:33 UTC
Ayla Crenshaw wrote:
Watch the latest Alliance Tournament.

If Amarr are among the best why the hell weren't they used (nearly) at all? It was all Minmatar, Gallente, Vindicators with lots of Merlins, Tengus and an occassional Widow setup. Amarr were represented by a Vengeance or Absolution here and there and I think one HAM Legion rush team.

There was another problem with "among" in your argument, pointed out in Battleship thread. They are "among" the best, not "THE" best. That means there's a better choice for nearly any task there is, and why would you willingly use something suboptimal?

Why don't they show a lot at the AT ? Maybe because the rules of the AT favors very high dps and speed ? The fields where gallente and minmatar excells at...

Amarr can't be the best everywhere. Why is there hellcat doctrine and navy apoc doctrine ? The truth is that in the history of EVE amarr BS always managed to adapt to the metagame. They are that good. They go through all the buff and nerf, and they are still there, with all their inherent power. Their BS are probably the best BS killers, and that's due to damage projection and tank. And they still are the best at this.

The problem is that their is not only BS at the AT, and lasers indeed have trouble shooting at smaller targets.
Ayla Crenshaw
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#323 - 2013-04-17 10:50:42 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Ayla Crenshaw wrote:
Watch the latest Alliance Tournament.

If Amarr are among the best why the hell weren't they used (nearly) at all? It was all Minmatar, Gallente, Vindicators with lots of Merlins, Tengus and an occassional Widow setup. Amarr were represented by a Vengeance or Absolution here and there and I think one HAM Legion rush team.

There was another problem with "among" in your argument, pointed out in Battleship thread. They are "among" the best, not "THE" best. That means there's a better choice for nearly any task there is, and why would you willingly use something suboptimal?

Why don't they show a lot at the AT ? Maybe because the rules of the AT favors very high dps and speed ? The fields where gallente and minmatar excells at...

Amarr can't be the best everywhere. Why is there hellcat doctrine and navy apoc doctrine ? The truth is that in the history of EVE amarr BS always managed to adapt to the metagame. They are that good. They go through all the buff and nerf, and they are still there, with all their inherent power. Their BS are probably the best BS killers, and that's due to damage projection and tank. And they still are the best at this.

The problem is that their is not only BS at the AT, and lasers indeed have trouble shooting at smaller targets.


Some valid points, but...

Some people would cry "HOMOGENIZATION" and other complicated multisyllable words, but balance should stretch out to most tasks that can be attempted in a ship.

I don't have some lofty expectations, I just want a ship that can run missions without cap boosters. From what I heard this wish is shared by PvPers too - to fight without capping yourself out by, well, fighting, without even a neut applied.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#324 - 2013-04-17 11:05:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
Ayla Crenshaw wrote:
I don't have some lofty expectations, I just want a ship that can run missions without cap boosters. From what I heard this wish is shared by PvPers too - to fight without capping yourself out by, well, fighting, without even a neut applied.

Armageddon will be the godly mission runner amarr lacked before.

As for the capacitor, the damage projection of laser allow amarr ship to not overuse their prop mods. A gallente ship for example will use most of its cap only to move at range, and will be almost caped out before even firing. Same goes for minmatar, as they can't outbrawl anything by standing still.
Shingorash
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#325 - 2013-04-17 11:17:12 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Ayla Crenshaw wrote:
I don't have some lofty expectations, I just want a ship that can run missions without cap boosters. From what I heard this wish is shared by PvPers too - to fight without capping yourself out by, well, fighting, without even a neut applied.

Armageddon will be the godly mission runner amarr lacked before.

As for the capacitor, the damage projection of laser allow amarr ship to not overuse their prop mods. A gallente ship for example will use most of its cap only to move at range, and will be almost caped out before even firing. Same goes for minmatar, as they can't outbrawl anything by standing still.


Also dont forget how much cheaper the ammo is on the basis you have to swap it out once in a blue moon. :)
Ayla Crenshaw
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#326 - 2013-04-17 11:50:49 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Ayla Crenshaw wrote:
I don't have some lofty expectations, I just want a ship that can run missions without cap boosters. From what I heard this wish is shared by PvPers too - to fight without capping yourself out by, well, fighting, without even a neut applied.

Armageddon will be the godly mission runner amarr lacked before.

As for the capacitor, the damage projection of laser allow amarr ship to not overuse their prop mods. A gallente ship for example will use most of its cap only to move at range, and will be almost caped out before even firing. Same goes for minmatar, as they can't outbrawl anything by standing still.


I probably should've specified I meant "I just want a LASER boat that can run missions without cap boosters". I won't get into Armageddon OP/UP discussion or it's viability for any task... because as it's stands now it's not an Amarr ship. It's a bastard mutant brother of Dominix. Amarr boats are all about lasers, and nobody in their right mind would put them on the new 'Geddon.
Danny DCO
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#327 - 2013-04-17 12:05:55 UTC
progodlegend wrote:
progodlegend wrote:
Not enough with the battleship guns. Currently the massive cap need for these guns is keeping amarr battleships from being used again. Amarr already suffer from having completely predictable and easy to tank damage types ("they are forming a-hacs? just tank em/thermal, gg we win").

But the battleship guns cap need almost make amarr concepts unviable. I know that a lot of people have always mentioned how the amarr are at a disadvantage because most of their ships are missing a bonus (10% reduction in cap need for guns, where instead they could have a useful bonus like every other ship in every other race). The truth of the matter is, you just can't run an Amarr concept without that bonus, unless you make serious fitting decisions to reduce the cap need of your guns.

The most popular amarr concepts of the past 3 years have been Zealots, Abaddons, and Armageddons. Zealots and Armageddons both get a -10% reduction in cap need for guns, and even then, I can tell you from personal experience that the Armageddon still ran out of cap boosters quite quickly in any fight lasting longer than 5-10 minutes. Then you have the Abaddon, for which the most successful iteration of this concept had to use TWO TECH 2 RIGS just to make the guns cap need managable, and make the ship last more than 5 minutes.

[Abaddon, PL hellcat]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L

Large Anti-EM Pump I
Large Energy Discharge Elutriation II
Large Energy Discharge Elutriation II



Without the rigs, the Abaddon just eats through cap boosters in 5 minutes or less, turning the abaddon into a small gang ship at best. There are times when the ship would work without the two gun rigs, but usually it was just because alliances or FC's were using it inefficiently and not firing their guns all the time.

The fact of the matter is, there is a huge upswing in cap need for all BS sized modules compared to cruiser sized modules. Look at the difference between a 10mn microwarp drive and 100mn micro warpdrive. The 10mn MWD takes 13.5 cap per second, while the 100mn MWD takes 54.1 cap per second. Most BS get double the cap recharge rate of their cruiser cousins, but many BS modules take 3-5x the amount of cap as cruiser modules.

The main point is, the abaddon shouldn't need two rigs dedicated to reducing their gun's cap need just to last more than 5 minutes in a battle (including cap boosters). It's terribly unbalanced and it's part of the reason people have stopped using hellcats.


Bump.

To update this I'm going to point out the problem with Amarr battleship guns using more numbers and maths.

Using all level 5 skills, a Neutron blaster II uses 2.2 cap per second (shooting antimatter), while a Mega Pulse Laser II (shooting multifrequency) uses 6.5 cap per second. That's essentially 3x as much. With the proposed 10% reduction in cap use, they will be using 5.85 cap per second. On an abaddon, a full rack of pulse lasers shooting either multifrequency or scorch (the only two crystals they use) will still take up 46 cap per second after the proposed changes. Shooting just it's guns, WITH NO OTHER MODULES ON. If that Abaddon has an MWD fit (giving it a -25% reduction in cap, a standard fitting choice though) the cap on that abaddon will last for 3 minutes 14 seconds. How long does it last now? 2 minute and 42 seconds. Congratulations, you have given a ship 35 extra seconds of just using it's guns, not counting any other active modules.

The cap requirements for amarr battleship guns are absurd, and are not fixable by just a 10% reduction in pulse lasers. The change needs to be significant. A realistic change would be bringing the cap requirement for mega pulse lasers down to just above double the neutron blaster requirement (which would take up 4.4 cap per second with all level 5 skills instead of 6.5 cap per second). If i'm correct, that means bringing the base cap requirement for pulse lasers down from 40 to 25 cap, or a 37.5% reduction. I know that sounds like a massive reduction, but the amount of cap used is still huge, as with a rack of 8 guns, it still will take 35 cap per second to just run it's guns, which is a good bit more than it's natural recharge. But at least, with decent cap booster management you can fight for longer than 5 minutes.

tl;dr:

To sum up both posts. The cap requirement changes for battleship sized lasers are pathetic and don't do anything. Amarr battleships suck because they either need a -10% cap reduction bonus to function(a wasted bonus, basically any ship with this bonus only gets one real bonus), or they need to make massive fitting decisions to reduce cap need for their guns. Specifically I'm focusing on pulse lasers, as they are the most used guns for Amarr. You need to have a significant reduction in the cap need for Pulse lasers, 37.5% is my recommendation, because it brings mega pulse lasers to just above double the cap requirement of Neutron blasters, which is their closest cousin. Anything less than 35% is basically not a change at all.


Progod made me quote this, so it better helps.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#328 - 2013-04-17 12:18:27 UTC
Ayla Crenshaw wrote:
I probably should've specified I meant "I just want a LASER boat that can run missions without cap boosters". I won't get into Armageddon OP/UP discussion or it's viability for any task... because as it's stands now it's not an Amarr ship. It's a bastard mutant brother of Dominix. Amarr boats are all about lasers, and nobody in their right mind would put them on the new 'Geddon.

That's a stupid request. I did lvl4 missions with 4 months of skills in an armageddon, and had no problem doing them with 3 or 4 minutes of capacitor. With proper skills and dps, I think 3 minutes should be more than enough. Cap stability is stupid in pve.
Ayla Crenshaw
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#329 - 2013-04-17 12:43:14 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Ayla Crenshaw wrote:
I probably should've specified I meant "I just want a LASER boat that can run missions without cap boosters". I won't get into Armageddon OP/UP discussion or it's viability for any task... because as it's stands now it's not an Amarr ship. It's a bastard mutant brother of Dominix. Amarr boats are all about lasers, and nobody in their right mind would put them on the new 'Geddon.

That's a stupid request. I did lvl4 missions with 4 months of skills in an armageddon, and had no problem doing them with 3 or 4 minutes of capacitor. With proper skills and dps, I think 3 minutes should be more than enough. Cap stability is stupid in pve.


You do realize that Armageddon had the cap use bonus back then and did not cap out from firing only it's guns? That's 3-4 minutes with reppers running on autorepeat which seems about right for most L4s.

With current change you'll run out of juice in under two minutes and that's definitely not enough.
Doctor Ape MD
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#330 - 2013-04-17 12:51:52 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Ayla Crenshaw wrote:
I probably should've specified I meant "I just want a LASER boat that can run missions without cap boosters". I won't get into Armageddon OP/UP discussion or it's viability for any task... because as it's stands now it's not an Amarr ship. It's a bastard mutant brother of Dominix. Amarr boats are all about lasers, and nobody in their right mind would put them on the new 'Geddon.

That's a stupid request. I did lvl4 missions with 4 months of skills in an armageddon, and had no problem doing them with 3 or 4 minutes of capacitor. With proper skills and dps, I think 3 minutes should be more than enough. Cap stability is stupid in pve.


Yes, nobody is arguing that level 4 missions were difficult when they had the cap bonuses enabling you to be able to tank and fire your guns at the same time, the concern is that with the changes there is little to no point to train for lasers over any other weapon system from a PvE perspective (Nightmare being the one good exception I can think of because it negates the awful laser cap useage with it's 100% damage bonus).
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#331 - 2013-04-17 13:07:24 UTC
Doctor Ape MD wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Ayla Crenshaw wrote:
I probably should've specified I meant "I just want a LASER boat that can run missions without cap boosters". I won't get into Armageddon OP/UP discussion or it's viability for any task... because as it's stands now it's not an Amarr ship. It's a bastard mutant brother of Dominix. Amarr boats are all about lasers, and nobody in their right mind would put them on the new 'Geddon.

That's a stupid request. I did lvl4 missions with 4 months of skills in an armageddon, and had no problem doing them with 3 or 4 minutes of capacitor. With proper skills and dps, I think 3 minutes should be more than enough. Cap stability is stupid in pve.


Yes, nobody is arguing that level 4 missions were difficult when they had the cap bonuses enabling you to be able to tank and fire your guns at the same time, the concern is that with the changes there is little to no point to train for lasers over any other weapon system from a PvE perspective (Nightmare being the one good exception I can think of because it negates the awful laser cap useage with it's 100% damage bonus).


Agreed. They're forcing people skip the T1 line entirely for PvE, use the Navy Harb because medium energy isn't quite as imbalanced as large and learn to fit a Paladin or Nightmare where you can actually choose to fit the other half of our weapon line without going over PG let alone cap.
Nadia Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#332 - 2013-04-17 13:09:36 UTC
Avald Midular wrote:
Doctor Ape MD wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Ayla Crenshaw wrote:
I probably should've specified I meant "I just want a LASER boat that can run missions without cap boosters". I won't get into Armageddon OP/UP discussion or it's viability for any task... because as it's stands now it's not an Amarr ship. It's a bastard mutant brother of Dominix. Amarr boats are all about lasers, and nobody in their right mind would put them on the new 'Geddon.

That's a stupid request. I did lvl4 missions with 4 months of skills in an armageddon, and had no problem doing them with 3 or 4 minutes of capacitor. With proper skills and dps, I think 3 minutes should be more than enough. Cap stability is stupid in pve.


Yes, nobody is arguing that level 4 missions were difficult when they had the cap bonuses enabling you to be able to tank and fire your guns at the same time, the concern is that with the changes there is little to no point to train for lasers over any other weapon system from a PvE perspective (Nightmare being the one good exception I can think of because it negates the awful laser cap useage with it's 100% damage bonus).


Agreed. They're forcing people skip the T1 line entirely for PvE, use the Navy Harb because medium energy isn't quite as imbalanced as large and learn to fit a Paladin or Nightmare where you can actually choose to fit the other half of our weapon line without going over PG let alone cap.


Don't forget neuting rats, guys.
Super spikinator
Hegemonous Conscripts
#333 - 2013-04-17 13:21:45 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Ayla Crenshaw wrote:
I don't have some lofty expectations, I just want a ship that can run missions without cap boosters. From what I heard this wish is shared by PvPers too - to fight without capping yourself out by, well, fighting, without even a neut applied.

Armageddon will be the godly mission runner amarr lacked before.

As for the capacitor, the damage projection of laser allow amarr ship to not overuse their prop mods. A gallente ship for example will use most of its cap only to move at range, and will be almost caped out before even firing. Same goes for minmatar, as they can't outbrawl anything by standing still.


Of course it will be godly. Amarr finally are getting a BS that fires missiles. With the new cruise missile changes coming in the Armageddon is looking better than ever thanks to its new "I'm a strong, independent Battleship that don't need no Turrets" layout.
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#334 - 2013-04-17 13:32:20 UTC
CCP Rise
have you considered reducing the ROF of laser turrets in exchange for some extra damage from the crystals?

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#335 - 2013-04-17 13:58:12 UTC
Doctor Ape MD wrote:
Yes, nobody is arguing that level 4 missions were difficult when they had the cap bonuses enabling you to be able to tank and fire your guns at the same time, the concern is that with the changes there is little to no point to train for lasers over any other weapon system from a PvE perspective (Nightmare being the one good exception I can think of because it negates the awful laser cap useage with it's 100% damage bonus).

You forgot the "4 months of skills" part, where no cap skill is at 5. Also, the Armageddon had a fire rate bonus, not damage one. Cap bonus of the armageddon was only 34% at BS5 ; 18% at BS3.

If cap really is a problem, you use less cap heavy cristals, or pulse the armor reper, or whatever, it's pve. Here you have 10% less PG need for beams, and 20% less cap use. That's a lot in fact.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#336 - 2013-04-17 14:04:14 UTC
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
CCP Rise
have you considered reducing the ROF of laser turrets in exchange for some extra damage from the crystals?



That must be made carefully. Otherwise tachyosn become again the alpha weaposn (before arties change some eyars ago.. the tachyons were doing almost same alpha)

I dont get why people hated the cap usage bonus. Its better to have a weapon that is powerful from level 1 of skill. CCP shoudl have kept that bonus all over eve and increased raw power of the lasers... but now is too late.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#337 - 2013-04-17 14:05:31 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Pelea Ming wrote:
Just curious what your smoking, you have to be cap stable in a laser boat in missions, because if your not, you can either shoot, or you can rep, not both, and how are you clearing the site at all if all you can do is rep?

Just learn to do missions please. NPC stop shoot you when they are dead...

As for tha Apocalypse capacitor, you should read again : Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / recharge per second) : 7000(-500) / 1002s(-152s) / 6.99 (+.49)

None of the amarr BS got a nerf to capacitor, only the cap bonus gone ; a bonus amarr whine about for being useless for years.

No wonder the whining anymore, people didn't even read the tha amarr BS OP...




amarr bs are OP? you are simply smokin crack.

3x the cap consumption of blaster weapons. even with the 50% reduction in cap, we still drew 1/6th more cap that blasters.
so if you think about it, cap use for lasers just went up by 100% and ccp wants to give us 10% back?
bring the cap sunsumption of lasers down by the 50% we would have gotten if they bonus was still in place. they will still have a higher cap draw than any other weapon, but itll be managable. then, if ccp wants to tack on some other bonuses, great.
i dont even care which bonus they add or take away. just bring the energy consumption of lasers down on amarr or all amarr non-missile boats will be dry docked or even moth balled.

to double a cap consumption of an already cap hurting race is obsurd.

drop all cap usage on lasers by 50%. it wont take long. take your time balancing lasers after that. add new crystals, or whatever..but for right now, drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#338 - 2013-04-17 14:26:49 UTC
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
CCP Rise
have you considered reducing the ROF of laser turrets in exchange for some extra damage from the crystals?

Will probably be considered as part of the laser overhaul he promised, but it will be in the winter patch at the earliest so what we are looking for now is a band-aid to tide us over until the real work can be done/put in.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#339 - 2013-04-17 14:29:44 UTC
Mole Guy wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Pelea Ming wrote:
Just curious what your smoking, you have to be cap stable in a laser boat in missions, because if your not, you can either shoot, or you can rep, not both, and how are you clearing the site at all if all you can do is rep?

Just learn to do missions please. NPC stop shoot you when they are dead...

As for tha Apocalypse capacitor, you should read again : Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / recharge per second) : 7000(-500) / 1002s(-152s) / 6.99 (+.49)

None of the amarr BS got a nerf to capacitor, only the cap bonus gone ; a bonus amarr whine about for being useless for years.

No wonder the whining anymore, people didn't even read the tha amarr BS OP...




amarr bs are OP? you are simply smokin crack.

3x the cap consumption of blaster weapons. even with the 50% reduction in cap, we still drew 1/6th more cap that blasters.
so if you think about it, cap use for lasers just went up by 100% and ccp wants to give us 10% back?
bring the cap sunsumption of lasers down by the 50% we would have gotten if they bonus was still in place. they will still have a higher cap draw than any other weapon, but itll be managable. then, if ccp wants to tack on some other bonuses, great.
i dont even care which bonus they add or take away. just bring the energy consumption of lasers down on amarr or all amarr non-missile boats will be dry docked or even moth balled.

to double a cap consumption of an already cap hurting race is obsurd.

drop all cap usage on lasers by 50%. it wont take long. take your time balancing lasers after that. add new crystals, or whatever..but for right now, drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap drop the cap



issue becomes that a lof of non ammar ships will be better with lasers than with any other weapons then. The way should be an increase of base cap on ammar ships i Think.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#340 - 2013-04-17 14:55:45 UTC
Yet, the abaddon never had problem being extremely effective despite the lack of a cap bonus. That was the argument of all the "remove cap bonus" crowd.