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Jackyl Co. Dark Taboo 0
Ncromancion Jackyl Co. Dark Taboo Likes received: 0	#301 - 2013-04-16 17:55:16 UTC Howz about we steal the shiny arty cannons from the mimmy's and give them our cruddy lazors :) worked in the past >.> <.< >.>

Regolis

Imperial Academy

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 99

#302 - 2013-04-16 19:02:18 UTC

Battleship guns and cap usage

Neutron Blaster Cannon 1
Cap per shot / rack of 8 : 12.74 / 101.92

425mm Railgun 1
Cap per shot / rack of 8 : 21 / 168

Mega Pulse Laser 1
Cap per shot / rack of 8 : 40 / 320

Mega Beam Laser 1
Cap per shot / rack of 8 : 65 / 520

Tachyon Beam Laser 1
Cap per shot / rack of 8 : 95 / 760

I didn't bother using cap per second as they don't work that way .. these are the weapons that use cap
single shot and rack of 8 ..

Posting this over here too incase you guys missed it in the Amarr BS forum

progodlegend

Amok.

Goonswarm Federation

Likes received: 202

#303 - 2013-04-16 19:16:50 UTC

Regolis wrote:

You need to use cap per second because that's the only way to compare the weapons. How else would you compensate for the differences in rate of fire? You are comparing different things when you don't account for rate of fire.

Regolis

Imperial Academy

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 99

#304 - 2013-04-16 19:39:29 UTC

Amarr

Abaddon Capacitor amount / recharge rate / cap per second : 6375 / 1250s / 5.1
Apocalypse Capacitor amount / recharge rate / cap per second : 7000 / 1002s / 6.99
Armageddon Capacitor amount / recharge rate / cap per second : 6200 / 1087s / 5.7

Gallente

Hyperion Capacitor amount / recharge rate / cap per second : 7200 / 1250s / 4.8
Megathron Capacitor amount / recharge rate / cap per second : 5800 / 1087s / 5.02
Dominix Capacitor amount / recharge rate / cap per second : 6000 / 1087s / 5.51

Minmatar

Maelstrom Capacitor amount / recharge rate / cap per second : 6000 / 1250s / 4.8
Tempest Capacitor amount / recharge rate / cap per second : 5400 / 1154s / 4.68
Typhoon Capacitor amount / recharge rate / cap per second : 5400 / 1087s / 4.97

Caldari

Rokh Capacitor amount / recharge rate / cap per second : 6000 / 1250s / 4.8
Raven Capacitor amount / recharge rate / cap per second : 5500 / 1160s / 4.74
Scorpion Capacitor amount / recharge rate / cap per second : 5500 / 1087s / 5.06

Amarr Weapons

Beams
Dual Heavy Beams I + II activation / rate of fire / cap per second : 35 GJ / 7.20s / 4.86GJ/s
Mega Beams I + II activation / rate of fire / cap per second : 65 GJ / 9.00s / 7.22GJ/s
Tachyon Beams I + II activation / rate of fire / cap per second : 95 GJ / 12.50s / 7.6GJ/s

Pulse
Dual Heavy Pulse Laser I + II activation / rate of fire / cap per second : 25 GJ / 6.08s / 4.11GJ/s
Mega Pulse Laser I + II activation / rate of fire / cap per second : 40 GJ / 7.88s / 5.08GJ/s

Gallente Weapons

Blasters
Electron Blaster Cannon I + II activation / rate of fire / cap per second : 5.88 GJ / 4.5s / 1.3GJ/s
Ion Blaster Cannon I + II activation / rate of fire / cap per second : 9.8 GJ / 6.75s / 1.45GJ/s
Neutron Blaster Cannon I + II activation / rate of fire / cap per second : 12.74 GJ / 5.87s / 1.61GJ/s

Railguns
Dual 250mm Railgun I + II activation / rate of fire / cap per second : 10.5 GJ / 5.85s / 1.79GJ/s
350mm Railgun I + II activation / rate of fire / cap per second : 15.4 GJ / 7.31s / 2.1GJ/s
450mm Railgun I + II activation / rate of fire / cap per second : 21 GJ / 9.56s / 2.19GJ/s

From the Amarr BS forums .. reposting here

In Wreck we thrust 554
Bouh Revetoile In Wreck we thrust Likes received: 554	#305 - 2013-04-16 20:14:24 UTC 1 I just get an awesome idea : let's make all weapon capless, so that everyone is equal !

Ministry of War Amarr Empire 42
Ayla Crenshaw Ministry of War Amarr Empire Likes received: 42	#306 - 2013-04-16 20:30:32 UTC Bouh Revetoile wrote: I just get an awesome idea : let's make all weapon capless, so that everyone is equal ! A straw man? Really? Reductio ad absurdum type of arguments are so last decade...

Doomheim 174
Avald Midular Doomheim Likes received: 174	#307 - 2013-04-16 20:32:07 UTC Ayla Crenshaw wrote: Bouh Revetoile wrote: I just get an awesome idea : let's make all weapon capless, so that everyone is equal ! A straw man? Really? Reductio ad absurdum type of arguments are so last decade... He's trolling the Amarr thread too, ignore him.

Ruze

Next Stage Initiative

Likes received: 523

#308 - 2013-04-16 20:37:29 UTC

Regolis wrote:

I would like to add that the proposed changes in this post would change these stats to:

Beams
Dual Heavy Beams I + II activation / rate of fire / cap per second : 28 GJ / 7.20s / 3.89GJ/s
Mega Beams I + II activation / rate of fire / cap per second : 52 GJ / 9.00s / 5.77GJ/s
Tachyon Beams I + II activation / rate of fire / cap per second : 76 GJ / 12.50s / 6.08GJ/s

Pulse
Dual Heavy Pulse Laser I + II activation / rate of fire / cap per second : 22.5 GJ / 6.08s / 3.7GJ/s
Mega Pulse Laser I + II activation / rate of fire / cap per second : 36 GJ / 7.88s / 4.57GJ/s

STILL a considerable amount of cap use above our nearest competitor, the Gallente. Of course, we must take into account that blasters are only one of their primary weapon types along with drones (which don't use cap, and both blasters and drones do all damage types). Of course, Amarr also have drones, and a slim minority use missiles.

Oh, and Gallente are considered the active armor tank race, which means more cap use by default. Not saying that Amarr mission runners and solo pvpers must active tank, too, but that's not supposed to be what are ships are designed for.

Do note, though, that Amarr are considered the race to remote rep. This makes our fleet footprint very considerable. And we don't use ammo, except now and again when our crystals burn out (but that's not ammo).

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?

Avald Midular

Doomheim

Likes received: 174

#309 - 2013-04-16 20:41:54 UTC | Edited by: Avald Midular

Ruze wrote:

Regolis wrote:

Has CCP anounced these "considers"? I haven't heard them anywhere or are you saying they're considered a buffer tank race and remote rep race only because their fitting is crippled compared to Gallente?

Ruze

Next Stage Initiative

Likes received: 523

#310 - 2013-04-16 23:00:12 UTC

Avald Midular wrote:

Ruze wrote:

STILL a considerable amount of cap use above our nearest competitor, the Gallente. Of course, we must take into account that blasters are only one of their primary weapon types along with drones (which don't use cap, and both blasters and drones do all damage types). Of course, Amarr also have drones, and a slim minority use missiles.

Oh, and Gallente are considered the active armor tank race, which means more cap use by default. Not saying that Amarr mission runners and solo pvpers must active tank, too, but that's not supposed to be what are ships are designed for.

Do note, though, that Amarr are considered the race to remote rep. This makes our fleet footprint very considerable. And we don't use ammo, except now and again when our crystals burn out (but that's not ammo).

Derived attributes, I guess you could say. Between double bonus remote rep ships, bonuses to resists instead of armor repair amount on combat ships, higher base armor amounts on a lot of our ships, and the lack of the capacity to support most of our weapon systems as well as active tanking without cap boosters.

So while I'm sure CCP, somewhere, at sometime, has made mention of this function ... I'm personally going off of my impressions of the vessels and their usage.

Scarlet Weather Rhapsody 130
CaptainFalcon07 Scarlet Weather Rhapsody Likes received: 130	#311 - 2013-04-16 23:17:12 UTC Its a good start, but i still think they could use more reduction in capacitor use for lasers. I personally think 30-50% reduction in both pulse and beams would be favorable. The age where cap usage of lasers is at its end. Its time to let amarr have their 2nd bonus that they've been missing for so long.

Masterkiller Mechanics

State War Academy

Caldari State

Likes received: 5

#312 - 2013-04-16 23:18:58 UTC

progodlegend wrote:

Not enough with the battleship guns. Currently the massive cap need for these guns is keeping amarr battleships from being used again. Amarr already suffer from having completely predictable and easy to tank damage types ("they are forming a-hacs? just tank em/thermal, gg we win").

But the battleship guns cap need almost make amarr concepts unviable. I know that a lot of people have always mentioned how the amarr are at a disadvantage because most of their ships are missing a bonus (10% reduction in cap need for guns, where instead they could have a useful bonus like every other ship in every other race). The truth of the matter is, you just can't run an Amarr concept without that bonus, unless you make serious fitting decisions to reduce the cap need of your guns.

The most popular amarr concepts of the past 3 years have been Zealots, Abaddons, and Armageddons. Zealots and Armageddons both get a -10% reduction in cap need for guns, and even then, I can tell you from personal experience that the Armageddon still ran out of cap boosters quite quickly in any fight lasting longer than 5-10 minutes. Then you have the Abaddon, for which the most successful iteration of this concept had to use TWO TECH 2 RIGS just to make the guns cap need managable, and make the ship last more than 5 minutes.

[Abaddon, PL hellcat]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L

Large Anti-EM Pump I
Large Energy Discharge Elutriation II
Large Energy Discharge Elutriation II

Without the rigs, the Abaddon just eats through cap boosters in 5 minutes or less, turning the abaddon into a small gang ship at best. There are times when the ship would work without the two gun rigs, but usually it was just because alliances or FC's were using it inefficiently and not firing their guns all the time.

The fact of the matter is, there is a huge upswing in cap need for all BS sized modules compared to cruiser sized modules. Look at the difference between a 10mn microwarp drive and 100mn micro warpdrive. The 10mn MWD takes 13.5 cap per second, while the 100mn MWD takes 54.1 cap per second. Most BS get double the cap recharge rate of their cruiser cousins, but many BS modules take 3-5x the amount of cap as cruiser modules.

The main point is, the abaddon shouldn't need two rigs dedicated to reducing their gun's cap need just to last more than 5 minutes in a battle (including cap boosters). It's terribly unbalanced and it's part of the reason people have stopped using hellcats.

Bump.

To update this I'm going to point out the problem with Amarr battleship guns using more numbers and maths.

Using all level 5 skills, a Neutron blaster II uses 2.2 cap per second (shooting antimatter), while a Mega Pulse Laser II (shooting multifrequency) uses 6.5 cap per second. That's essentially 3x as much. With the proposed 10% reduction in cap use, they will be using 5.85 cap per second. On an abaddon, a full rack of pulse lasers shooting either multifrequency or scorch (the only two crystals they use) will still take up 46 cap per second after the proposed changes. Shooting just it's guns, WITH NO OTHER MODULES ON. If that Abaddon has an MWD fit (giving it a -25% reduction in cap, a standard fitting choice though) the cap on that abaddon will last for 3 minutes 14 seconds. How long does it last now? 2 minute and 42 seconds. Congratulations, you have given a ship 35 extra seconds of just using it's guns, not counting any other active modules.

The cap requirements for amarr battleship guns are absurd, and are not fixable by just a 10% reduction in pulse lasers. The change needs to be significant. A realistic change would be bringing the cap requirement for mega pulse lasers down to just above double the neutron blaster requirement (which would take up 4.4 cap per second with all level 5 skills instead of 6.5 cap per second). If i'm correct, that means bringing the base cap requirement for pulse lasers down from 40 to 25 cap, or a 37.5% reduction. I know that sounds like a massive reduction, but the amount of cap used is still huge, as with a rack of 8 guns, it still will take 35 cap per second to just run it's guns, which is a good bit more than it's natural recharge. But at least, with decent cap booster management you can fight for longer than 5 minutes.

tl;dr:

To sum up both posts. The cap requirement changes for battleship sized lasers are pathetic and don't do anything. Amarr battleships suck because they either need a -10% cap reduction bonus to function(a wasted bonus, basically any ship with this bonus only gets one real bonus), or they need to make massive fitting decisions to reduce cap need for their guns. Specifically I'm focusing on pulse lasers, as they are the most used guns for Amarr. You need to have a significant reduction in the cap need for Pulse lasers, 37.5% is my recommendation, because it brings mega pulse lasers to just above double the cap requirement of Neutron blasters, which is their closest cousin. Anything less than 35% is basically not a change at all.

Pretty much this and as he later states you have to look at cap per second for the turrets and cap regen.


CaptainFalcon07 Scarlet Weather Rhapsody Likes received: 130	#313 - 2013-04-16 23:21:10 UTC Even with a 50% reduction in cap usage, lasers still use more cap than hybrids. 37.5 - 50% would be ideal in fixing the issues of capacitor issues.

Pelea Ming

Royal Amarr Institute

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 350

#314 - 2013-04-17 01:18:23 UTC

I wanted to thank you people who were kind enough to do the math that proved where I made my mistake in how the hull resist bonuses worked, I greatly appreciate that :) as for the laser cap use/hull being able to support active tank, it is rather hard to properly seperate those from this thread I won't lie, but they are definately more appropriate for the BS/Laser threads. :) ATM, I am taking some time to see what else you all have to provide for information relevant to these resist nerfs before more commentary, but I find myself for pvp agreeing these nerfs aren't as bad as I initially feared... and as for my personal concerns for PvE, I might perhaps have to take them to either the laser or BS threads :)

Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps 2,496
Katran Luftschreck Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps Likes received: 2,496	#315 - 2013-04-17 03:19:47 UTC 1 Wait, does this mean CCP is going to make Amarrian armor tank ships have enough capacitor to actually armor tank? http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0

James Amril-Kesh

Viziam

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 11,532

#316 - 2013-04-17 05:14:58 UTC | Edited by: James Amril-Kesh

Katran Luftschreck wrote:

Wait, does this mean CCP is going to make Amarrian armor tank ships have enough capacitor to actually armor tank?

Shocked

If by that you mean "armor tank and do absolutely nothing else" then yeah.

The only ships this change actually really applies to are the Oracle, Apocalypse, and Abaddon.
The Oracle definitely didn't need the buff, the Apocalypse got a major nerf since with lvl 5 skills it's trading either 30% or 40% cap use bonus to lasers depending on which kind it's using, and the Abaddon got a slight buff but not really enough to make a huge difference.

Energy turret cap use needs to be reduced much more severely, beam laser PG and CPU also needs to be reduced or more preferably Apocalypse PG and CPU needs to be increased. Oracle needs slight nerfs to cap, PG, and CPU to compensate. Abaddon can stay where it is. Armageddon... well, nobody's going to be putting lasers on them now, so it doesn't really matter.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Ruze

Next Stage Initiative

Likes received: 523

#317 - 2013-04-17 05:17:19 UTC

James Amril-Kesh wrote:

Katran Luftschreck wrote:

Wait, does this mean CCP is going to make Amarrian armor tank ships have enough capacitor to actually armor tank?

Shocked

If by that you mean "armor tank and do absolutely nothing else" then yeah.

We could armor tank and use drones. Or armor tank and fire artillery. Or armor tank and use drones and artillery.

Last one honestly sounds like it'll be the Geddon's new winner. I think you could have some serious cross-weapon platforming there.

James Amril-Kesh

Viziam

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 11,532

#318 - 2013-04-17 05:19:43 UTC

Ruze wrote:

James Amril-Kesh wrote:

Katran Luftschreck wrote:

Wait, does this mean CCP is going to make Amarrian armor tank ships have enough capacitor to actually armor tank?

Shocked

If by that you mean "armor tank and do absolutely nothing else" then yeah.

Yeah, I meant "armor tank and not be able to use its racial weaponry at the same time."

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

James Amril-Kesh

Viziam

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 11,532

#319 - 2013-04-17 06:57:29 UTC

So I posted this in the thread about Amarr T1 battleships, but because of the obvious relation between the two issues I'm crossposting it here.

James Amril-Kesh wrote:

So thanks to a set of modified EFT data files, I was able to play around and come up with this:

Quote:

[NEW Apocalypse, Tachypoc]
Internal Force Field Array I
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Power Diagnostic System II

Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script

NEW Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L
NEW Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L
NEW Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L
NEW Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L
NEW Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L
NEW Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L
NEW Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L
NEW Tachyon Beam Laser II, Aurora L

Large Ancillary Current Router I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I

Note that I need a rig AND a PDS in order to fit this ship - my total PG consumption with all level 5 skills here is 30308.4 / 30318.75. Just under 11 powergrid below the limit after fitting two PG mods. And then I have to downgrade my damage control and use adaptive nano plating (non-energized) otherwise I go over the limit on CPU.

The PG and CPU of beam lasers, especially the tachyons, still needs to be reduced.
I should also mention that with everything else off, the guns when firing aurora, gleam, or multifrequency deplete the ship's capacitor in under 3 minutes.

I should also mention that because of these limitations, we have a battleship here with a pitifully low 83k EHP.

Seriously, CCP?

BUT WAIT
At its lock range, it's a whole 41 DPS more than a standard rail Rokh!
WOAH

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Bouh Revetoile

In Wreck we thrust

Likes received: 554

#320 - 2013-04-17 08:22:49 UTC

Ayla Crenshaw wrote:

A straw man? Really?

Reductio ad absurdum type of arguments are so last decade...

Absurd ? Certainly. But certainly not more than the requests here.

Cap cost and fitting are the identity drawbacks of lasers, exactly as much as short range is a drawback of blasters. Hence why I think asking for these drawback to be removed is, if not absurd, to take with a lot of care.

The absurd come when you actually look at the game and see that amarr ships are definitely among the best everywhere. So why should they have their drawbacks reduced ? To which goal should they be reduced ?

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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Jackyl Co.

Dark Taboo

Imperial Academy

Amarr Empire

Amok.

Goonswarm Federation

In Wreck we thrust

Ministry of War

Amarr Empire

Doomheim

Next Stage Initiative

Scarlet Weather Rhapsody

State War Academy

Caldari State

Royal Amarr Institute

Amarr Empire

Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps

Viziam

Amarr Empire