Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Most arty fits require an ACR rig. Neutron blasters fit are only possible with shield fit on cruiser hulls (and still very hard). 250mm railguns are unfitable on gallente ships without PG mods. 425mm railguns fits are very hard on CPU on gallente BS.

And the performances of these weapons are not even close to what tachyon beam give.

Tachyon are tier 4 weapon ! As I said, they are even better than railguns ! If they were easy to fit, they would obsolete all other weapons !

And reading that Mega Pulse are barely on line with other turrets makes me cry. Some people will never see their beloved thing good as long as it won't be completely and obviously OP.

I'm doing the comparison with real ships. But indeed, the Rokh don't have a damage bonus. It take a Naga to have better performances than Tachyon : a bonus to both range AND damage on the highest range weapon.

The thing is that railguns are supposed to be THE long range weapon. Take this to them, and they are definitely useless. Beam already have tracking and damage at short long range.

So, first, comparing Multifreq with Gamma is apple to orange, but then, gleam to scorch is fine ? Come on ! All this frequency cristals have a range modifier with them !

What I mean with Tachyon multifreq being better than Mega Pulse with Gamma is that Tachyon outdps Mega Pulse at ALL ranges beyond mega pulse multifreq ! You remember Mega Pulse are a short range weapon right ? Of course Mega Pulse have better tracking, they are a short range weapon. Yet, Tachyon have the best tracking of any LR turrets.

In the end, Tachyon are a *very* versatile weapon when you consider all the ranges it can operate at and still be very competitive, if not the best.

Cap use and fitting are the *only* barrier preventing Tachyon to be the ultimate long range weapon. No BS weapon is better than them beyond 20km.

As for the Apoc, it will have a better capacitor than the Abaddon, hence less cap problems than the Abaddon. If the Abaddon worked before, the Apoc will work.

You're right, I shouldn't have compared Gleam to Scorch, because comparing any crystal to Scorch, Scorch "wins". Scorch only loses at close range because of the lack of tracking. I'm not entirely sure how to convince you of this, because it's something Amarr pilots feel as they fit and fly their ships- you don't WANT to fit beams because nothing quite compares to the power that is a scorch crystal.

Be careful when you say "No BS weapon is better than Tachyons"- because Artillery, obviously, has higher alpha, while rails have a longer range. Tachyons end up in the middle, somewhere. In fact, based off numbers, 1400 Artillery needs a buff, because of it's limited range and has the lowest damage per second of the three systems. Missiles, I think can be agreed upon are the one PvP weapon that is worse off than lasers at the moment, and I think it's right that CCP address the missiles before lasers.

I don't think lasers should be cap free. I think they should remain firmly more cap intensive than Rails, and I think that CCP is trying to make things more balance.

But, really, it boils down to the fact that the Armageddon is gone, and the Apoc isn't what it was. Both the new turret ships are required to supply the cap to 8 turrets. Currently, with these most recent iteration of changes, the Apoc will use up 50 cap per second firing Tachyons. 50.56, according to my math, which is probably wrong (someone smarter than me can correct me).

Fine, whatever. Let's assume it's worth it on any ship to drop no less than four slots (2 for powergrid, 2 for capacitor) for a PvP ship to fire Tachyons. Lets look at regular Tech II beams.

Tech II beams only use up 48 cap per second! Hooray! Such a massive change from the Tachyons! And, in fact, DPS wise pull about 10% less cap, 10% less damage, and use 15% less powergrid. But beam lasers, inspite of being fitable over Tachyons, and having similar (tachyons do track better) tracking, beams aren't used. Ask PL or NC. about beam abaddons and you'll be laughed out of the building.

But let's look at the glory of all Amarr, Pulse lasers, just to get a comparison, and what it is these changes really do, because for all the talk of Tachyons and and beam lasers, that's a distraction from what will actually be used, as much as I might want to fit something else on my ship. (I really don't have a choice)

So, the math says, that a multifrequency/tech II fitted gun will now only use up 33 cap/sec! Wow! That's less than a large armor repairer! And...425 railguns, which use the most cap in the game of a hybrid gun, those only cost a...what? 18.4 cap/sec? Hmmm.

It boils down to, changing the cap change to 37.5% turns the numbers into as follows:
Tachyons: 40 cap/sec (still more than a tech II armor rep)
Beam Lasers: 38.1
Mega Pulse Lasers: 26.9

These are respectable numbers. Hell, look at the absolute smallest caliber of large laser with a 37.5 reduction on cap use. Dual Heavy Pulse Lasers (Haven't seen a fit using them, tbh) use up 4.3 cap/sec, times 8, multiplied by .635, bippity bopitty bo, they use 15% more cap then railguns. (21.8 cap/sec for those interested)

You're worried about Tachyons being overpowered, we're worried about being able to fly our ships. As I said, the reason I push Tachyons is for some variation to the ever present scorch- keep in mind, Tachyons won't replace rails or Artillery- they fall in between. But being able to fit them... that'd be nice.

37.5% cap reduction would be nice, until that laser re-balance. Pretty please, CCP?

EDIT: Also, when we say tachyons are hard to fit, we're talking 102% PWG, you know that right? Maels have 500 leftover fitting all artillery, and Rokhs have over a thousand PWG leftover fitting rails. As long as it's 99.999% most of us will be happy with the Tachyons, I think.

Although this is a step in the right direction, it is not enough. I know I will be steering beginning mission runners away from Amarr ships for the time being.

It seems to me that even with max cap skills and implants Amarr pilots will still be running out of gas in many level 4 missions. Fitting options for mission runners will be reduced to all mids full of recharges and boosters with a CPR or two in the lows, making no room for modules that make life easier (ABs, webs, etc) and the use of cap boosters (and the size of charges in small cargo holds) will just be an added irritant that the other empire ships will not have to deal with.

I am really starting to get annoyed by that gimmick Nulli and I bet my patience is better than CCP's .. you sure you are not aiming that gun at your own foot?

Re-iteration of previous:
With racial flavour for the large part being put out to pasture, something unique should be added to pedestal ships (Navy hulls + BS) of the various navies.
Amarr's cap issues can be solved by giving a rolebonus saying 2x all effects of batteries. Doubles as increased defense against neuting (still don't know why the races eWar are designed to work best against themselves ) which is preventing Amarr hulls from making much of an impact on the small scale due to lack of mids for fight-control.
A single large T2 battery would then (at atrocious fitting cost, but we can take it!) add 2 (bonus)*700 (battery)*1.25 (skill) = 1750 raw cap which should be enough to make ends meet.

No we ******* can't. Especially not the Apoc.

So, assuming the reluctance from CCP to lower cap cost to cover the hole made from bonus removal stems from threat of toff-race use, why not go the other way .. double/triple the effect of the elutriation rigs and keep the weapon cap reduction low.
Can still go off-race, but fitting and rig requirements to make it work will prevent abuse and the real users get to save a rig or two for the situations where logistics are unavailable/scarce.

Combined with a light increase in base cap stats of affected hulls and we are set for a perfect continuation of the great Amarr tradition of chopping off extremities to make things click.

interesting/valid points

but people don't just fit amarr battleships for pvp

a pve based fit may include some CCC rigs and or low/mid-slot cap rechargers, which changes the capacitor profile of the hull.

Well, I had a long post written chewing you out for that inane statement, but the forum ate it.

So I will just say that it is asinine to have only one race with a slot tax just to be able to fit their guns. It would be like having Winmatar have to fit Hull extenders because their guns reduce their base hitpoints.

If Amarr had inherently more powerful ships than anyone else just from their base hulls, then maybe their ridiculous midslot tax would make sense, but they don't. We are par at best. We pretty much require most skills at V to even compete. This is the hallmark of an unbalanced race.

Blatantly quoting to populate more on the thread.