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[Odyssey] Large Energy Turrets

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Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#241 - 2013-04-15 12:38:43 UTC
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
any chance you could let us stack used laser crystals in cargo bay please?
it gets annoying when you have to scroll through cargobay to see whats in it like loot when you have tens of used crystals there so you can switch ammo ...

The issue with that is it's very easy for crystals to end up with different damaged percentages on them, and even if we could stack used undamaged ones, the damaged ones would only stack if they had the same percentage... which in my experience would typically result in them essentially still not getting stacked. Even on those extremely rare occasions when I have run the exact same crystals in my Tachmare for an extended period of time they still vary in how much damage they've sustained dispite being used the exact same amount (though perhaps this also should be addressed, since all other weapons when they need to reload for running empty do do so at the exact same time, whereas 99% of the time crystals break one at a time over several minutes, very annoying!)
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#242 - 2013-04-15 12:41:33 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Mr Noo wrote:
Do you remember dev blog "Hybrid weapon and Tech II ammo balancing"?

Quote:
Hybrid Turrets
Reduced Capacitor usage:
All hybrid turrets: -30% capacitor use


-30% cap use for ALL hybrid turrets.

Why you don't wont to change laser turrets the same way?

http://community.eveonline.com/news/patch-notes/patch-notes-for-crucible-1

Indeed, they changed hybrid turrets in this way, and there never was a ship bonus to capacitor use of hybrid weapons just to make these ships viable IIRC. However CCP is removing a 10% per level bonus to capacitor use on ships that sorely needed that bonus (and even with the full bonus they STILL sucked up capacitor) and after removing this bonus they're giving us a measly 10% for pulse and 20% for beams?

I call bullshit. Lasers are a pitiful weapon in their current state and they really need to be balanced more vigorously, not overly cautious like you're doing now.

Also tachyons either need a CPU use reduction or preferably the Apocalypse needs more CPU. The Oracle in response to the energy turret changes needs some nerfs to capacitor, PG, and CPU.


Now we'll see what sisi has to say, but aren't we essentially trading a major bonus to several Amarr ships, with a slightly less bonus to ALL ships fitted with lasers?

I mean, I know our capacitor sucks. Especially since our weapons and our tanks (don't even get started on propulsion) use it more than anybody else. That's pretty much been the nature of Amarr since ever. We don't have cap. I've been fitting cap boosters for years, as a standard addition to my fits.

But it seems like this is more of a blanket buff than a blanket nerf. Might not be the most effective, and I damn sure think it's going to need to be tweaked, but I have a nagging feeling that it's more important to CCP to make more ships more useful than have a few that we'll put lasers on and use because the benefit is there.

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?
Regolis
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#243 - 2013-04-15 13:02:59 UTC
Again just stating the obvious that any Amarr pilot actually knows ...
Just about every Amarr ship, especially the ones that use lasers, requires cap rigs.
There's no choice about the rigs you take if you plan on firing for more than a few minutes.
Capacitor rigs or go home.
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#244 - 2013-04-15 13:26:54 UTC
Regolis wrote:
Again just stating the obvious that any Amarr pilot actually knows ...
Just about every Amarr ship, especially the ones that use lasers, requires cap rigs.
There's no choice about the rigs you take if you plan on firing for more than a few minutes.
Capacitor rigs or go home.

For PvE maybe...

Otherwise I'll take trimarks and a cap booster any day of the week.

Would prefer Amarr laser ships to have a lot more cap - much better way of doing it really. Currently they are barely any better than other races.
You don't need to apply this to non-gunships like the Curse, new Geddon, Arbitrator etc. As you don't want them to suddenly have immense cap for neuting + other stuff.
Tasha Saisima
Doomheim
#245 - 2013-04-15 13:59:19 UTC
Did blasters really get a 30% reduction not too long ago? Were they worse off than lasers?
Anthar Thebess
#246 - 2013-04-15 14:03:08 UTC
Think adding / redesigning crystals.
I don't remember when i used something different from Multi/Standard if it comes to T1 ammo.

Why not add some crystals that will have most of damage moved to shield or armour ( base damage).

Please consider also possibility to "stack" used crystals.
I have 10 crystals 55% damaged each - when i combine them i get 550% so i receive 5 undamaged crystals.

I know this is silly, but i have to scroll, scroll and scroll down can because of so many damaged ( in a diffrent way ) crystals.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#247 - 2013-04-15 14:23:18 UTC
Tasha Saisima wrote:
Did blasters really get a 30% reduction not too long ago? Were they worse off than lasers?

I believe the exercise was an attempt to make the mwd bonus a little more potent as the blasterships were still capping out all over place .. that MWD bonus was of course removed shortly thereafter and replaced with speed/mass tweaks so perhaps hybrids should get the cap use put back on them Twisted

Worse of than lasers is relative, we'll see how badly blasters are hit with TE reduction. But theory is/was that laser ships can sit on their asses and pound away while blaster ships have to run around to club people to death.
Naso Aya
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#248 - 2013-04-15 15:36:59 UTC
Regolis wrote:
Again just stating the obvious that any Amarr pilot actually knows ...
Just about every Amarr ship, especially the ones that use lasers, requires cap rigs.
There's no choice about the rigs you take if you plan on firing for more than a few minutes.
Capacitor rigs or go home.


You're missing all medium slots filled with cap rechargers, just for stability.
marVLs
#249 - 2013-04-15 16:13:39 UTC
Too smalAttention

Give it:
- 20% for pulses
- 25% for beam
- 15% beam PG
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#250 - 2013-04-15 19:17:22 UTC
marVLs wrote:
Too smalAttention

Give it:
- 20% for pulses
- 25% for beam
- 15% beam PG


And for the entire laser spectrum, not just large. I said it in an earlier thread, shortly before this "buff" was announced. (btw, it's not really a buff, it's a slight lessening of the drastic nerf the Amarr BS line is taking)

The only thing good about lasers is Scorch. If you actually look at it in proper comparison to the other weapons systems it is a joke. Because with lasers, you aren't comparing pulses to rockets/autocannons/blasters. You are comparing those three things to Scorch.

Give us a reason to fit these damn cap sucking guns or make them suck less cap. Because a non sustainable weapon system is both totally unrealistic, and a very anti fun mechanic, especially when we get no concrete benefit for fitting cap sucking guns. And either way, give us better crystals!

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#251 - 2013-04-15 20:29:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
Thinking about it, I'm afraid Tachyons Abaddon will obsolete the future fleet Megathron (I knew it !), and maybe the Rokh too.

Basically, Tachyon beams have the same range than 425mm railguns, but have more damage. If you reduce the constraints on these turrets, then the margin railguns have grace to the fitting modules an Abaddon need to use disapear.

PS : checking it again, in fact, only it take Pulse Abaddon with Navy Multifreq to outdamage Tachyon Abaddon at 20km ; just to give an idea of the power of this weapon...
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#252 - 2013-04-15 20:46:06 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
marVLs wrote:
Too smalAttention

Give it:
- 20% for pulses
- 25% for beam
- 15% beam PG


And for the entire laser spectrum, not just large. I said it in an earlier thread, shortly before this "buff" was announced. (btw, it's not really a buff, it's a slight lessening of the drastic nerf the Amarr BS line is taking)

The only thing good about lasers is Scorch. If you actually look at it in proper comparison to the other weapons systems it is a joke. Because with lasers, you aren't comparing pulses to rockets/autocannons/blasters. You are comparing those three things to Scorch.

Give us a reason to fit these damn cap sucking guns or make them suck less cap. Because a non sustainable weapon system is both totally unrealistic, and a very anti fun mechanic, especially when we get no concrete benefit for fitting cap sucking guns. And either way, give us better crystals!


This cannnot be said enough. Giving Amarr the same cap recharge as every other race and only slightly (~5%) more total cap almost begs the player to use nothing but Scorch. This ignores the fact that Tach's can't physically be fit on any of the BS's without a PG module even with the new changes (this makes Amarr the only race to have this problem). Amarr has higher PG weapon fits AND is still expected to armor tank with the negative value of PG leftover after guns but still receives the same PG as every other race, great design choice CCP.

You can say "well lets see what happens when these changes hit SISI" but that isn't really necessary. Fitting anything but Scorch on a BS is idiotic given the current numbers and still requires a cap booster, SISI won't change that.
Naso Aya
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#253 - 2013-04-15 20:59:09 UTC
Avald Midular wrote:


This cannnot be said enough. Giving Amarr the same cap recharge as every other race and only slightly (~5%) more total cap almost begs the player to use nothing but Scorch. This ignores the fact that Tach's can't physically be fit on any of the BS's without a PG module even with the new changes (this makes Amarr the only race to have this problem). Amarr has higher PG weapon fits AND is still expected to armor tank with the negative value of PG leftover after guns but still receives the same PG as every other race, great design choice CCP.

You can say "well lets see what happens when these changes hit SISI" but that isn't really necessary. Fitting anything but Scorch on a BS is idiotic given the current numbers and still requires a cap booster, SISI won't change that.


Keep in mind, tech II laser crystals actually use up the same amount of cap as multifrequency. Which is a lot. People don't use scorch because it's the best crystal for cap, people use scorch because it's so damn good, it means that even if you fit the largest beam lasers, the pulse lasers will do better damage, with better tracking, at comparable range.

Currently, Pulse Lasers with Multi do more damage per second than Tachyons with multi. Tachyons have a longer range, but are currently unfitable (like at all) on Amarr ships. These changes bring them close to fitable, but even giving a leftover powergrid of 500 at all skills level 5 to the Abaddon, pulse would very likely still rule the meta of fleet combat. No guarantees, but just saying that Mega Pulse Lasers are currently MUCH more broken than Tachyons.
Naso Aya
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#254 - 2013-04-15 20:59:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Naso Aya
Deleted. Post explosion on accident.
Naso Aya
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#255 - 2013-04-15 21:00:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Naso Aya
Avald Midular wrote:


This cannnot be said enough. Giving Amarr the same cap recharge as every other race and only slightly (~5%) more total cap almost begs the player to use nothing but Scorch. This ignores the fact that Tach's can't physically be fit on any of the BS's without a PG module even with the new changes (this makes Amarr the only race to have this problem). Amarr has higher PG weapon fits AND is still expected to armor tank with the negative value of PG leftover after guns but still receives the same PG as every other race, great design choice CCP.

You can say "well lets see what happens when these changes hit SISI" but that isn't really necessary. Fitting anything but Scorch on a BS is idiotic given the current numbers and still requires a cap booster, SISI won't change that.


Keep in mind, tech II laser crystals actually use up the same amount of cap as multifrequency. Which is a lot. People don't use scorch because it's the best crystal for cap, people use scorch because it's so damn good, it means that even if you fit the largest beam lasers, the pulse lasers will do better damage, with better tracking, at comparable range.

Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Thinking about it, I'm afraid Tachyons Abaddon will obsolete the future fleet Megathron (I knew it !), and maybe the Rokh too.

Basically, Tachyon beams have the same range than 425mm railguns, but have more damage. If you reduce the constraints on these turrets, then the margin railguns have grace to the fitting modules an Abaddon need to use disapear.

PS : checking it again, in fact, only it take Pulse Abaddon with Navy Multifreq to outdamage Tachyon Abaddon at 20km ; just to give an idea of the power of this weapon...


Currently, Pulse Lasers with Multi do more damage per second than Tachyons with multi. Tachyons have a longer range, but are currently unfitable (like at all) on Amarr ships. These changes bring them close to fitable, but even giving a leftover powergrid of 500 at all skills level 5 to the Abaddon, pulse would very likely still rule the meta of fleet combat. No guarantees, but just saying that Mega Pulse Lasers (I.E. scorch) are currently MUCH more broken than Tachyons.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#256 - 2013-04-15 21:08:00 UTC
Naso Aya wrote:
Keep in mind, tech II laser crystals actually use up the same amount of cap as multifrequency. Which is a lot. People don't use scorch because it's the best crystal for cap, people use scorch because it's so damn good, it means that even if you fit the largest beam lasers, the pulse lasers will do better damage, with better tracking, at comparable range.

Currently, Pulse Lasers with Multi do more damage per second than Tachyons with multi. Tachyons have a longer range, but are currently unfitable (like at all) on Amarr ships. These changes bring them close to fitable, but even giving a leftover powergrid of 500 at all skills level 5 to the Abaddon, pulse would very likely still rule the meta of fleet combat. No guarantees, but just saying that Mega Pulse Lasers are currently MUCH more broken than Tachyons.

I'm not saying pulse are not broken, but currently, you can fit Tachyon on an Abaddon with 3 ACR (with 2 plates, MWD & Heavy cap booster) ; with 10% less PG required, you need one less ACR. That put the Tachyon Abaddon to the level of fitting of the 1400mm Maelstrom. Yet, Tachyon with multifreq are more powerful than Mega Pulse with Gamma !! And even at longer range, they do the same or more (depend on the fit) than a Rokh ! Of course the Rokh still have its insane tank, but that's rather effective.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#257 - 2013-04-15 21:09:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Here is another thing. Amarr remains the only race that has a functional "battle clock", of how long we can actually fight without any external forces effecting our cap. And heaven help you if you wanted to tank alongside that.

No other race has such things.

Imagine the sheer volume of whine if ammunition suddenly took up enough cargo space that you could only fire for 5 minutes. Imagine if any other race were told that they couldn't have their proper number of midslots because they HAVE to fit cap injectors.

It wouldn't fly for a minute. Hell, look at the Gallente BS thread, that took them what? 48 hours to flip on those changes? Less? Why are we second class citizens?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#258 - 2013-04-15 21:09:35 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Naso Aya wrote:
Keep in mind, tech II laser crystals actually use up the same amount of cap as multifrequency. Which is a lot. People don't use scorch because it's the best crystal for cap, people use scorch because it's so damn good, it means that even if you fit the largest beam lasers, the pulse lasers will do better damage, with better tracking, at comparable range.

Currently, Pulse Lasers with Multi do more damage per second than Tachyons with multi. Tachyons have a longer range, but are currently unfitable (like at all) on Amarr ships. These changes bring them close to fitable, but even giving a leftover powergrid of 500 at all skills level 5 to the Abaddon, pulse would very likely still rule the meta of fleet combat. No guarantees, but just saying that Mega Pulse Lasers are currently MUCH more broken than Tachyons.

I'm not saying pulse are not broken, but currently, you can fit Tachyon on an Abaddon with 3 ACR (with 2 plates, MWD & Heavy cap booster) ; with 10% less PG required, you need one less ACR. That put the Tachyon Abaddon to the level of fitting of the 1400mm Maelstrom. Yet, Tachyon with multifreq are more powerful than Mega Pulse with Gamma !! And even at longer range, they do the same or more (depend on the fit) than a Rokh ! Of course the Rokh still have its insane tank, but that's rather effective.


Are you taking into account the Rokh doesn't have a damage bonus but a range?
Avald Midular
Doomheim
#259 - 2013-04-15 21:10:14 UTC
Naso Aya wrote:
Avald Midular wrote:


This cannnot be said enough. Giving Amarr the same cap recharge as every other race and only slightly (~5%) more total cap almost begs the player to use nothing but Scorch. This ignores the fact that Tach's can't physically be fit on any of the BS's without a PG module even with the new changes (this makes Amarr the only race to have this problem). Amarr has higher PG weapon fits AND is still expected to armor tank with the negative value of PG leftover after guns but still receives the same PG as every other race, great design choice CCP.

You can say "well lets see what happens when these changes hit SISI" but that isn't really necessary. Fitting anything but Scorch on a BS is idiotic given the current numbers and still requires a cap booster, SISI won't change that.


Keep in mind, tech II laser crystals actually use up the same amount of cap as multifrequency. Which is a lot. People don't use scorch because it's the best crystal for cap, people use scorch because it's so damn good, it means that even if you fit the largest beam lasers, the pulse lasers will do better damage, with better tracking, at comparable range.

Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Thinking about it, I'm afraid Tachyons Abaddon will obsolete the future fleet Megathron (I knew it !), and maybe the Rokh too.

Basically, Tachyon beams have the same range than 425mm railguns, but have more damage. If you reduce the constraints on these turrets, then the margin railguns have grace to the fitting modules an Abaddon need to use disapear.

PS : checking it again, in fact, only it take Pulse Abaddon with Navy Multifreq to outdamage Tachyon Abaddon at 20km ; just to give an idea of the power of this weapon...


Currently, Pulse Lasers with Multi do more damage per second than Tachyons with multi. Tachyons have a longer range, but are currently unfitable (like at all) on Amarr ships. These changes bring them close to fitable, but even giving a leftover powergrid of 500 at all skills level 5 to the Abaddon, pulse would very likely still rule the meta of fleet combat. No guarantees, but just saying that Mega Pulse Lasers (I.E. scorch) are currently MUCH more broken than Tachyons.


I agree completely. The key part is "close to fittable"..... that still isn't fitable (102% of PG of the Abaddon and Apoc) and still requires a PG module that no other race has to waste a module slot on.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#260 - 2013-04-15 21:15:11 UTC
Quote:
No guarantees, but just saying that Mega Pulse Lasers (I.E. scorch) are currently MUCH more broken than Tachyons


Yeah, I agree, Mega Pulse are the better choice. This is a problem with beams vs pulse in general.

But even if you say Mega Pulse are broken in comparison, they are still barely on line with other race's guns. So where does that leave us?

Because the solution isn't nerf pulse, the solution is buff beams.

The other solution is nerf arty, the unfair stick against which all other long range guns are measured. But that won't happen, at least not from the current trends.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.