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[Odyssey] Ship Resistance Bonuses

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Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#801 - 2013-05-04 00:23:46 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
Ujio Sendai wrote:
All in all I think what they have actually proposed to do with the resistances is a good idea, and is still a very very slight adjustment considering it only affects a few ships.



44 ships, is not a few...

^^^^ Didn't say it myself since I felt it was rather obvious :)
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#802 - 2013-05-04 00:25:00 UTC
Ujio Sendai wrote:
A 1% adjustment that works out to 5% only if the relevant ship skill is trained up to lv.5 on a select group of bonused ships is about the most minimalist approach as you can do.

EDIT: After thinking about it some and reading what others have said, I'd guess somewhere between slight decreases like this and just outright increasing the HP reppers restore would be the best way to make the competition between the 2 systems more involved. I haven't taken the time to consider all of the implicatons of this when other modules are brought into the mix, but really the reppers themselves seem to be the weakest link.

It's just some guess work, it's someone else's full time paying job to do the extreme number crunching I believeBlink

Hence why I try to avoid doing so myself beyond some basic stuff to make sure they get pointed in the right direction.
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#803 - 2013-05-04 17:10:26 UTC
The sad part is as I work it out, this reduces my resistance tank by less than 1% once mods and skills are factored in. So what is the point of this again, exactly?
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#804 - 2013-05-05 20:07:26 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
Well it is getting late in the day, we have a month to go so it's unlikely any changes will be made now, rip amarr and caldari, all because fozzie likes burst tanking...

yup

everybody knows self repair bonuses arent good at all and very limited to solo play ,but hey ccp likes it for some reason they didnt share with us,so they ruin everything else which stands in their way to make it more/most popular
oh and is there still anybody who thinks ccp doesnt hate caldari/amarr?
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#805 - 2013-05-05 20:10:49 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
The sad part is as I work it out, this reduces my resistance tank by less than 1% once mods and skills are factored in. So what is the point of this again, exactly?

the point is that you should have been fail at math exam and never been released to the public
go back to elementary school thx
Luscius Uta
#806 - 2013-05-06 09:29:03 UTC
Fozzie, thanks for not forgetting that the nerf bat should hit the limited issue ships as well.

Would you also be so kind to nerf other limited issue ship when you do your next rebalance changes? I think that Guardian-Vexor's ability to control 10 drones is way OP and should be fixed at once!

Workarounds are not bugfixes.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#807 - 2013-05-06 14:58:46 UTC
Interesting note, I decided for all the lack of response we keep getting to contact our new CSM 8 about this, and basically got told off. "The issues you present are too small a matter for us to even bother with" was the gist of the responses I got, out of those few that I did get.

So much for the Devs telling us to talk with them about our concerns since they apparently don't want to deal with us either.
Jill Antaris
Jill's Open Incursion Corp
#808 - 2013-05-06 15:07:02 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
The math is what trouble me.

When the dev's claim that resist bonuses outperform local rep bonuses I always think 'what's wrong with that they should do'.

By making a bonus equal the devs are actually removing choice from the game. If local rep modules vs resists equate to exactly the same where is the choice? Mathematically we're all equal! Once again it doesn't matter how we fit our ships if we slap on plates or extenders in lieu of a stacking mods to get better resists our individual choices amount to nothing, no edge whatsoever.

This is very frustrating in a game where you live or die by the edge that you create. Given that reppers and shield boosters use cap I think they should actually be more powerful, 10% per level like the recently nerfed incursus seems fine. It's a good and fair trade off in the sense that I am willing to trade cap for a powerful edge in bonus hitpoints that combined with my skills I can craft into a valuable defence.



The resist bonus, even with 4% per level is still considerable better overall than the active tanking bonus(it improves EHP, RR, local rep, reduces resistance holes and improves the advantage of plates and slaves). The only difference is that it isn't just as good or even situational(high dps intake) better than the active tanking bonus during active tanking.

The active tanking bonus on it's own would be fine with 10%, however improved by faction gear, drugs, implants and gang bonuses you get silly numbers pretty quick and this doesn't really need to be any more problematic as it is. Overall combining the active tank bonus with a cap efficiency bonus for active tank modules, a overheating bonus(strength or duration) or a fitting bonus(to improve dps while active tanking) would be far easier to balance and even more useful if you look at plain T2 tanks. As it stands the active tanking bonus is still to limited, since it only works if you actually take only moderate damage, only while your repps run, only while you have cap for your repps and the active tank reducing options for dps, range and utility a lot by the high fitting/slot requirement for a useful active tank in pvp.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#809 - 2013-05-07 22:27:43 UTC
Perhaps the nature of active tanking should be changed completely to a percentage of the total tank per rep as opposed to a bonus based on the performance of the repping module. It would be easier to balance and it would also mean that extenders would have the side effect of increasing the amount repped. E.g 10% per rep of total tank.

Modules can be balanced around cap use, cpu, pg etc.

I haven't thought about it too deeply and am just throwing the idea out there.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#810 - 2013-05-07 22:29:46 UTC
Jill Antaris wrote:
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
The math is what trouble me.

When the dev's claim that resist bonuses outperform local rep bonuses I always think 'what's wrong with that they should do'.

By making a bonus equal the devs are actually removing choice from the game. If local rep modules vs resists equate to exactly the same where is the choice? Mathematically we're all equal! Once again it doesn't matter how we fit our ships if we slap on plates or extenders in lieu of a stacking mods to get better resists our individual choices amount to nothing, no edge whatsoever.

This is very frustrating in a game where you live or die by the edge that you create. Given that reppers and shield boosters use cap I think they should actually be more powerful, 10% per level like the recently nerfed incursus seems fine. It's a good and fair trade off in the sense that I am willing to trade cap for a powerful edge in bonus hitpoints that combined with my skills I can craft into a valuable defence.



The resist bonus, even with 4% per level is still considerable better overall than the active tanking bonus(it improves EHP, RR, local rep, reduces resistance holes and improves the advantage of plates and slaves). The only difference is that it isn't just as good or even situational(high dps intake) better than the active tanking bonus during active tanking.

The active tanking bonus on it's own would be fine with 10%, however improved by faction gear, drugs, implants and gang bonuses you get silly numbers pretty quick and this doesn't really need to be any more problematic as it is. Overall combining the active tank bonus with a cap efficiency bonus for active tank modules, a overheating bonus(strength or duration) or a fitting bonus(to improve dps while active tanking) would be far easier to balance and even more useful if you look at plain T2 tanks. As it stands the active tanking bonus is still to limited, since it only works if you actually take only moderate damage, only while your repps run, only while you have cap for your repps and the active tank reducing options for dps, range and utility a lot by the high fitting/slot requirement for a useful active tank in pvp.



To quote the devs when they were busy nerfing the drake 'blame the modules not the ship'

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#811 - 2013-05-08 04:35:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Hagika
Pelea Ming wrote:
Interesting note, I decided for all the lack of response we keep getting to contact our new CSM 8 about this, and basically got told off. "The issues you present are too small a matter for us to even bother with" was the gist of the responses I got, out of those few that I did get.

So much for the Devs telling us to talk with them about our concerns since they apparently don't want to deal with us either.



New CSM is kissing CCP backside from what it seems.

Amazing how such a small matter has everyone on the forums having a fit because of the changes, but remember... Its a small matter.

Devs say that in order to make people think they really give a crap about your opinion when basically they will do what they want regardless.

Just have to hit them where it matters most..Money.. Stop buying plexes, let accounts lapse a bit and when it adds up, they will come back singing a different tune.

It all comes down to the bottom line, they need money and we are the ones who have it. Take it away and things will change.

Awhile back they did very unpopular changes, lost players and money, not long after they came back apologizing and fixed the issues with many of the complaints.

Whether they like it or not, they have a boss and in the end, he cares only about money and when hes losing it, they catch hell for it.
Grunnax Aurelius
State War Academy
Caldari State
#812 - 2013-05-08 04:45:22 UTC
Hagika wrote:
Pelea Ming wrote:
Interesting note, I decided for all the lack of response we keep getting to contact our new CSM 8 about this, and basically got told off. "The issues you present are too small a matter for us to even bother with" was the gist of the responses I got, out of those few that I did get.

So much for the Devs telling us to talk with them about our concerns since they apparently don't want to deal with us either.



New CSM is kissing CCP backside from what it seems.

Amazing how such a small matter has everyone on the forums having a fit because of the changes, but remember... Its a small matter.

Devs say that in order to make people think they really give a crap about your opinion when basically they will do what they want regardless.

Just have to hit them where it maters most..Money.. Stop buying plexes, let accounts lapse a bit and when it adds up, they will come back singing a different tune.

It all comes down to the bottom line, they need money and we are the ones who have it. Take it away and things will change.

Awhile back they did very unpopular changes, lost players and money, not long after they came back apologizing and fixed the issues with many of the complaints.

Whether they like it or not, they have a boss and in the end, he cares only about money and when hes losing it, they catch hell for it.


Yes guys he is referring to the Incarna incident. If you wan make em listen you gotta get at least 1/3 of the community to stop buying plex and unsubscribing their accounts

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#813 - 2013-05-08 05:05:53 UTC
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:
Hagika wrote:
Pelea Ming wrote:
Interesting note, I decided for all the lack of response we keep getting to contact our new CSM 8 about this, and basically got told off. "The issues you present are too small a matter for us to even bother with" was the gist of the responses I got, out of those few that I did get.

So much for the Devs telling us to talk with them about our concerns since they apparently don't want to deal with us either.



New CSM is kissing CCP backside from what it seems.

Amazing how such a small matter has everyone on the forums having a fit because of the changes, but remember... Its a small matter.

Devs say that in order to make people think they really give a crap about your opinion when basically they will do what they want regardless.

Just have to hit them where it maters most..Money.. Stop buying plexes, let accounts lapse a bit and when it adds up, they will come back singing a different tune.

It all comes down to the bottom line, they need money and we are the ones who have it. Take it away and things will change.

Awhile back they did very unpopular changes, lost players and money, not long after they came back apologizing and fixed the issues with many of the complaints.

Whether they like it or not, they have a boss and in the end, he cares only about money and when hes losing it, they catch hell for it.


Yes guys he is referring to the Incarna incident. If you wan make em listen you gotta get at least 1/3 of the community to stop buying plex and unsubscribing their accounts


Thanks, I had a case of the ret@rd and forgot what it was exactly P
Emily Jean McKenna
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#814 - 2013-05-08 05:32:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Emily Jean McKenna
Yep, it worked for Incarna quite well...

We even got to read a LOOONNNGGG apology from the CEO of CCP.



Looks like they need the wake up call again.

I cancelled all 3 of my accounts then. This one is already cancelled.... deciding on the other two atm. Will probably do it regardless of what they come out with.
John 1135
#815 - 2013-05-08 06:55:47 UTC  |  Edited by: John 1135
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
The sad part is as I work it out, this reduces my resistance tank by less than 1% once mods and skills are factored in. So what is the point of this again, exactly?

Current Abaddon for BS IV char hits something like

EM 79%
TH 73%
KN 69%
EX 83%

That is 2xEANM IIs, 1xDC II, 1x EX Hardener II. There are other ways to tank, but this yields over 160k EHP.

My understanding is that ship bonuses don't go into the stacking formula. So losing 4% (1% / level) for the example char means taking roughly

19% more damage from EM
15% more damage from TH
13% more damage from KN
24% more damage from EX

So on average nearly 18% more damage taken per second. Due to dynamic factors in how resists interact with repping, were base armour HP on Abaddon to be buffed to compensate CCP would need to increase it by something like a third to be as resilient under fire. If the nerf really did equate to 1% CCP wouldn't bother making it.
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#816 - 2013-05-08 07:14:29 UTC
Emily Jean McKenna wrote:
Yep, it worked for Incarna quite well...

We even got to read a LOOONNNGGG apology from the CEO of CCP.



Looks like they need the wake up call again.

I cancelled all 3 of my accounts then. This one is already cancelled.... deciding on the other two atm. Will probably do it regardless of what they come out with.


mine end in a week and will not be bringing them back up till real changes..Was going to buy a couple plex to get some funding going again but not worth it now
Perihelion Olenard
#817 - 2013-05-08 07:48:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Perihelion Olenard
Emily Jean McKenna wrote:
Yep, it worked for Incarna quite well...

We even got to read a LOOONNNGGG apology from the CEO of CCP.



Looks like they need the wake up call again.

I cancelled all 3 of my accounts then. This one is already cancelled.... deciding on the other two atm. Will probably do it regardless of what they come out with.

It is amazing to me how some people can overreact to some of these changes. A 1/5 reduction in one defensive bonus (the most powerful) and suddenly it's time to cancel the subscriptions. A 1/3 reduction of the tracking enhancer's range bonus and it's time for some people to rage hard and claim Eve is now broken and will die. Look at the name, "tracking enhancer". Be lucky it has a range bonus at all.

Adapt, people.
Emily Jean McKenna
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#818 - 2013-05-08 09:04:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Emily Jean McKenna
Perihelion Olenard wrote:
Emily Jean McKenna wrote:
Yep, it worked for Incarna quite well...

We even got to read a LOOONNNGGG apology from the CEO of CCP.



Looks like they need the wake up call again.

I cancelled all 3 of my accounts then. This one is already cancelled.... deciding on the other two atm. Will probably do it regardless of what they come out with.

It is amazing to me how some people can overreact to some of these changes. A 1/5 reduction in one defensive bonus (the most powerful) and suddenly it's time to cancel the subscriptions. A 1/3 reduction of the tracking enhancer's range bonus and it's time for some people to rage hard and claim Eve is now broken and will die. Look at the name, "tracking enhancer". Be lucky it has a range bonus at all.

Adapt, people.


Its not all the changes themselves. Its the fact they do not listen to anyone much at all. I dont care about the resist bonus. The tracking nerf is lame. Most of the battleship changes suck. LOL though, range bonus at all... the tracking computer has a range and a tracking script to add... you read that correct? RANGE SCRIPT on a TRACKING COMPUTER lol lucky at all.

Ive been tired of the changes since QR. The problem is there are no other sandbox games that compete. Eve is still the best... but the devs **** with the things I like to fly. Blaster Domi... who flew that before the Ancillary was added? I did. Armageddon was my favorite ship.

Simple fact that trumps them all... All the changes they make are driving up prices. For a casual player like me that sucks. Im not buying PLEX, I pay for the game as is, not spending more. Oh well, Pathfinder Online is coming soon.... New Sandbox to try out.

Nope, you cant have my stuff
Pathogen Ascention
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#819 - 2013-05-08 14:29:22 UTC
Just reiterating that the res nerf is fucktarded. It interacts with so many other variables that it's become a huge issue, ffs just fix rr already. This is nothing new, and it's the problem CCP cited and then did nothing about. I've already said my good piece about Alpha fleets and a few other things that relate to the need for the ships with the res bonus, but we've been complaining for a long time about the rr. Can't remember when people were screaming for a res nerf... One more unnecessary change on the list of things coming.
Meghel
SilfMeg Mining and Transportation Co
#820 - 2013-05-08 14:33:22 UTC
Emily Jean McKenna wrote:


Its not all the changes themselves. Its the fact they do not listen to anyone much at all. I dont care about the resist bonus. The tracking nerf is lame. Most of the battleship changes suck. LOL though, range bonus at all... the tracking computer has a range and a tracking script to add... you read that correct? RANGE SCRIPT on a TRACKING COMPUTER lol lucky at all.

Ive been tired of the changes since QR. The problem is there are no other sandbox games that compete. Eve is still the best... but the devs **** with the things I like to fly. Blaster Domi... who flew that before the Ancillary was added? I did. Armageddon was my favorite ship.

Simple fact that trumps them all... All the changes they make are driving up prices. For a casual player like me that sucks. Im not buying PLEX, I pay for the game as is, not spending more. Oh well, Pathfinder Online is coming soon.... New Sandbox to try out.

Nope, you cant have my stuff


In your post, I read several rants. You use "suck", you use "****"
Your constructive level is bascially zero.

The Devs make and design the game.
Why should they listen to you if you give that kind of feedback :)

Perhaps they would listen if you would be so kind as to test out things at the test server and give constructive and reasonably mature feedback. Then perhaps things are changed :)

But I digress.
Have fun at Pathfinder Online.
I am sure we will see you back :D