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[Odyssey] Ship Resistance Bonuses

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Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#781 - 2013-05-01 13:56:36 UTC
The math is what trouble me.

When the dev's claim that resist bonuses outperform local rep bonuses I always think 'what's wrong with that they should do'.

By making a bonus equal the devs are actually removing choice from the game. If local rep modules vs resists equate to exactly the same where is the choice? Mathematically we're all equal! Once again it doesn't matter how we fit our ships if we slap on plates or extenders in lieu of a stacking mods to get better resists our individual choices amount to nothing, no edge whatsoever.

This is very frustrating in a game where you live or die by the edge that you create. Given that reppers and shield boosters use cap I think they should actually be more powerful, 10% per level like the recently nerfed incursus seems fine. It's a good and fair trade off in the sense that I am willing to trade cap for a powerful edge in bonus hitpoints that combined with my skills I can craft into a valuable defence.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#782 - 2013-05-01 13:57:48 UTC
HazeInADaze wrote:
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
Or the simple solution as people keep on suggesting is to have ships resist the incoming reps from logi's the higher their resists the less they benefit from reps.


That isn't a simple solution and it doesn't make any sense. It makes the trade off between reps and buffer obsolete in logi situations.


but if you check the math in Fozzies initial post, this is exactly what he is doing, which is why I do not support it.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
HazeInADaze
Safari Hunt Club
#783 - 2013-05-01 14:16:02 UTC  |  Edited by: HazeInADaze
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
HazeInADaze wrote:
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
Or the simple solution as people keep on suggesting is to have ships resist the incoming reps from logi's the higher their resists the less they benefit from reps.


That isn't a simple solution and it doesn't make any sense. It makes the trade off between reps and buffer obsolete in logi situations.


but if you check the math in Fozzies initial post, this is exactly what he is doing, which is why I do not support it.


As I understand it, he is saying that in logi-fleet situations these ships are just so much better that there really is no option for other pilots. And I would agree. For some ships, this bonus is just too good. For others, this bonus is all it has.

The problem for me is that the resists are useful always, and the rep bonus is rarely useful outside of pve and small gangs.

And buffing the rep bonus ships will just compound the problem, so that isn't an option.
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#784 - 2013-05-01 18:20:50 UTC
More than likely the reason we arent hearing from them is because, when a bunch of people tell someone their idea is bad and not to it, its common reaction to spite them and do exactly that.

If they actually cared, they would see this is a mistake and with all the other things they put on their plate, along with new ships we dont need, yet have a bunch of issues they are ignoring.

Its pretty safe to say, they dont care.

There has been no feedback on most topics. Chances are they are set in what they want to do regardless of how bad an idea or how a change will not fix something.

Do look at previous track records.
Pathogen Ascention
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#785 - 2013-05-01 18:27:16 UTC
Hagika wrote:
More than likely the reason we arent hearing from them is because, when a bunch of people tell someone their idea is bad and not to it, its common reaction to spite them and do exactly that.

If they actually cared, they would see this is a mistake and with all the other things they put on their plate, along with new ships we dont need, yet have a bunch of issues they are ignoring.

Its pretty safe to say, they dont care.

There has been no feedback on most topics. Chances are they are set in what they want to do regardless of how bad an idea or how a change will not fix something.

Do look at previous track records.


Unfortunately, this is most likely the case. I hope we're wrong.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#786 - 2013-05-01 22:34:03 UTC
Well it is getting late in the day, we have a month to go so it's unlikely any changes will be made now, rip amarr and caldari, all because fozzie likes burst tanking...

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Nometh Xergent
#787 - 2013-05-02 06:10:23 UTC
Im a kind of a new player so i dont really know about resists generally when its great or bad.
Myself, i dont see any reason to kick down so much resists. I dont understand what they are suffering from. (The ships)

“I’ve always loathed the necessity of sleep. Like death, it puts even the most powerful men on their backs.”
Emily Jean McKenna
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#788 - 2013-05-02 08:53:35 UTC
To me... it all has to do with PLEX.

Back when CCP decided to implement Walking in Station and wanted to start microtransactions... Most of the player base rebelled, CCP lost alot of customers... and alot of money.

Now of course, they still want to make the money they planned to make then. They are just doing it with PLEX. The changes they are making to all ships and even to a small degree the resist nerf, are ment to drive the base prices up... again.

Since they nerfed almost any way to make decent ISK (unless of course you play insane amounts of time). All decent mission ships have been nerfed, all decent anoms and sigs have been nerfed, moon mining is getting a change (not sure the changes there).

Anyway, prices go up, income goes down, so... buy a PLEX to get by.
Nometh Xergent
#789 - 2013-05-02 08:59:51 UTC
I dont really think PLEX is an issue. I dont have LOTS of Isk, but 500 m is kind of easy to get up too. (imo)
The only race i think that has maybe to much resists is the Caldari.

“I’ve always loathed the necessity of sleep. Like death, it puts even the most powerful men on their backs.”
John 1135
#790 - 2013-05-02 09:14:02 UTC
So putting an argument

R = CCP's concern is really RR: so CCP should nerf RR rather than resists

What is a solid counter-argument to R? Is the concern really RR? Can RR be fixed without nerfing resists? What about active repping?
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#791 - 2013-05-02 16:30:17 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
John 1135 wrote:
What is a solid counter-argument to R?
The solid counter argument to R:

R(resistance bonuses) crowd too much into SR(self-repping bonuses)'s space.

Proof: R is nearly as good as SR bonuses at self repping. If the R ship has even one more tanking slot than the SR ship, then it will be more effective at self repping.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#792 - 2013-05-02 16:52:32 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
John 1135 wrote:
What is a solid counter-argument to R?
The solid counter argument to R:

R(resistance bonuses) crowd too much into SR(self-repping bonuses)'s space.

Proof: R is nearly as good as SR bonuses at self repping. If the R ship has even one more tanking slot than the SR ship, then it will be more effective at self repping.


That would be at all appropriate, were it not for the overwhelming evidence that SR is a waste of a bonus anyway. R is useful at all levels of play. SR is in an inherently weak bonus with no scalability. No one should care if R crowds SR, because SR is a nigh worthless, PvE bonus anyway.

Get your PvE out of my PvP, and stop ruining what I have, just because you aren't satisfied with what you have.

Robbing the rich and burning the money just makes the poor people feel better by comparison.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#793 - 2013-05-02 19:03:28 UTC
So wait.

Problem: Resist ships are significantly better in fleets than local rep ships because resists give an indirect bonus to incoming logi while local reps don't.

Blatantly obvious solution: Change the local rep bonus to include a bonus to incoming logi as well. 7.5% per level to local reps and 5% per level to incoming remote reps, perhaps?
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#794 - 2013-05-02 21:55:17 UTC
Chris Winter wrote:
So wait.

Problem: Resist ships are significantly better in fleets than local rep ships because resists give an indirect bonus to incoming logi while local reps don't.

Blatantly obvious solution: Change the local rep bonus to include a bonus to incoming logi as well. 7.5% per level to local reps and 5% per level to incoming remote reps, perhaps?

the idea at heart is nice, though for scaling probably too OP at the suggest 5% per level, but CCP's already said they're scairt to open that can of worms because the possible OP implications are... etc.
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#795 - 2013-05-03 02:55:00 UTC
I oppose the resist nerf, as it causes several other, un-needed nerfs. Consider buffing reppers or increasing damage.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#796 - 2013-05-03 07:38:29 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

That would be at all appropriate, were it not for the overwhelming evidence that SR is a waste of a bonus FOR A FLEET SHIP
Fixed. It's a good bonus for solo ships.
John 1135
#797 - 2013-05-03 12:38:24 UTC  |  Edited by: John 1135
X Gallentius wrote:
John 1135 wrote:
What is a solid counter-argument to R?
The solid counter argument to R:

R(resistance bonuses) crowd too much into SR(self-repping bonuses)'s space.

Proof: R is nearly as good as SR bonuses at self repping. If the R ship has even one more tanking slot than the SR ship, then it will be more effective at self repping.

Why not just increase the SR bonuses a touch to compensate? If it's not working now, perhaps it needs to be stronger? Nerfing R won't suddenly propel SR to usefulness you know.

Nerf RR (the problem child)
Buff SR (another problem child)
Leave R alone (the useful and widely liked child who does as she is told)
Ujio Sendai
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#798 - 2013-05-03 13:29:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Ujio Sendai
All in all I think what they have actually proposed to do with the resistances is a good idea, and is still a very very slight adjustment considering it only affects a few ships.

If you think of the math and the principles to it R vs SR is a displacement of damage over time. Lowering R or raising SR only brings their effectiveness over time closer together. R obviously allows you to take a much stonger hit and applies to all relative HP that you have or will have restored. SR is a restoration of HP that you have lost, so it's a calculation of damage over time to figure which is better.

Obviously this truly depends on the situation of each specific battle. Seeing as how you don't have the luxury in PVP to figure what you're going to fight and how and when they're going to throw damage at you resistances are the safest bet. That is not to say in any given situation SR would be better or worse everytime.

All they are doing is making it more of a balancing game as to which method is more effective in a number of battle situations. I think it's a good thing. Better and more interesting than instantly knowing SR bonus is inferior at leastSmile
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#799 - 2013-05-03 22:45:08 UTC
Ujio Sendai wrote:
All in all I think what they have actually proposed to do with the resistances is a good idea, and is still a very very slight adjustment considering it only affects a few ships.



44 ships, is not a few...

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Ujio Sendai
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#800 - 2013-05-03 22:50:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Ujio Sendai
A 1% adjustment that works out to 5% only if the relevant ship skill is trained up to lv.5 on a select group of bonused ships is about the most minimalist approach as you can do.

EDIT: After thinking about it some and reading what others have said, I'd guess somewhere between slight decreases like this and just outright increasing the HP reppers restore would be the best way to make the competition between the 2 systems more involved. I haven't taken the time to consider all of the implicatons of this when other modules are brought into the mix, but really the reppers themselves seem to be the weakest link.

It's just some guess work, it's someone else's full time paying job to do the extreme number crunching I believeBlink