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[Odyssey] Ship Resistance Bonuses

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James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#701 - 2013-04-22 16:27:14 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
CCP Fozzie wrote:
This affects 44 ships total.

Shield:
Ibis, Taipan, Merlin, Worm, Harpy, Cambion, Moa, Gila, Eagle, Onyx, Broadsword, Drake, Ferox, Nighthawk, Vulture, Tengu, Loki, Skiff, Mackinaw, Hulk, Rokh, Scorpion Navy Issue, Rattlesnake, Chimera, Wyvern.

Armor:
Impairor, Punisher, Vengeance, Malice, Malediction, Maller, Sacrilege, Mimir, Vangel, Devoter, Phobos, Prophecy, Absolution, Damnation, Loki, Legion, Proteus, Abaddon, Archon, Aeon.

Ships that need this change:
Merlin, Harpy, Gila, Rokh, Loki

Ships that could do fine with this change:
Ibis, Taipan, Worm, Cambion, Moa, Drake, Mackinaw, Hulk, SNI, Rattlesnake, Impairor, Malice, Malediction (the resist bonus is pointless anyway), Mimir, Vangel, Prophecy, Abaddon, Legion, Tengu, Proteus

Ships that really don't need this change:
Eagle, Onyx, Broadsword, Ferox, Nighthawk, Vulture, Skiff, Chimera, Wyvern, Punisher, Vengeance, Maller, Sacrilege, Devoter, Phobos, Absolution, Damnation, Archon, Aeon

So, by my guess: 5 ships are more balanced by this change, 20 ships are more or less the same, and 19 ships are worse off when they didn't need to be.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Boris Amarr
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#702 - 2013-04-22 20:30:05 UTC
Amarr ships are slowest, has terrible problems with capacitor and cannot use active tank, has not enough capacitor to fire only, has only 2 damage type. Now you decide to take away the last Amarr's benefit - resistant bonus.

In the last update you said, that you want to make Maller like small Abaddon. Now it is two slowest ships without capacitor, resistant bonuses and without anything. Excellent! You keep one's word!
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#703 - 2013-04-22 20:32:07 UTC
IMO the Abaddon does fine with the change, as does the Prophecy since it's not a laser ship and indeed its tank is ridiculous.
The other Amarr ships, yeah, they don't need it.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
JEK3
Dissonance Corp
#704 - 2013-04-22 20:35:01 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
This affects 44 ships total.

Shield:
Ibis, Taipan, Merlin, Worm, Harpy, Cambion, Moa, Gila, Eagle, Onyx, Broadsword, Drake, Ferox, Nighthawk, Vulture, Tengu, Loki, Skiff, Mackinaw, Hulk, Rokh, Scorpion Navy Issue, Rattlesnake, Chimera, Wyvern.

Armor:
Impairor, Punisher, Vengeance, Malice, Malediction, Maller, Sacrilege, Mimir, Vangel, Devoter, Phobos, Prophecy, Absolution, Damnation, Loki, Legion, Proteus, Abaddon, Archon, Aeon.

Ships that need this change:
Merlin, Harpy, Gila, Rokh, Loki

Ships that could do fine with this change:
Ibis, Taipan, Worm, Cambion, Moa, Drake, Mackinaw, Hulk, SNI, Rattlesnake, Impairor, Malice, Malediction (the resist bonus is pointless anyway), Mimir, Vangel, Prophecy, Abaddon, Legion, Tengu, Proteus

Ships that really don't need this change:
Eagle, Onyx, Broadsword, Ferox, Nighthawk, Vulture, Skiff, Chimera, Wyvern, Punisher, Vengeance, Maller, Sacrilege, Devoter, Phobos, Absolution, Damnation, Archon, Aeon

So, by my guess: 5 ships are more balanced by this change, 20 ships are more or less the same, and 19 ships are worse off when they didn't need to be.


+1
Regarding the ships that do not need this change, I'd like to point out that many of those ships are covering very important roles. The resistance bonus on those ships is good as it is now and is IMO completely justified by the roles they cover. To implement a broad change like that without considering each particular ship just makes no sense. EVE balance is too subtle to think one change can be correct for 44 different ships.
Krell Kroenen
The Devil's Shadow
#705 - 2013-04-22 21:22:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Krell Kroenen
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

Ships that really don't need this change:
Chimera, Wyvern, Archon, Aeon

So, by my guess: 5 ships are more balanced by this change, 20 ships are more or less the same, and 19 ships are worse off when they didn't need to be.


If the change goes as plan on these caps, maybe the Nid and Hel won't be so undesirable? who I am kidding *smirks*

But jesting aside, I believe that doing a blanket nerf with out having a plan ready to go asap to address ships that are already under performing ie like the Eagle.. is just unwise.
Pathogen Ascention
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#706 - 2013-04-22 22:43:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Pathogen Ascention
EDIT: Wrong section, wrong tab open, meant to put this wall of text in Amarr BS thread.
Dani Lizardov
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#707 - 2013-04-23 13:03:55 UTC
3% to all T1 ships including Capitals

5% to T2 and T3 ships


I know that is a dream :) But it will have the most effect.
How ever it appear to be easier to just cut all then actually put in some code.

Please tell me: When CCP stopped writing code and start just adjusting db values ?

Balance is good! It bring us some change. However even that the amount of changes looks scares for the Odyssey expansion, they wont really bring something new to the game, like Retribution did. WHY?
Because, Retribution made a lot of ships usable in the sens, like they were almost not existent before.
Changes in Odysseys will affect more popular and used ships. That is good, but when we adapt to the changes we wont have anything new... just some numbers..
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#708 - 2013-04-23 13:50:56 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

They are in a line which CCP developed as not being as agile as other lines within the same class and are not consistently more penalized then their non-resist bonused brethren in different lines within the same class.



As an example, lets take my signature ship, the vengeance.

Lets compare to ships in same class...assuming all skills 5.

Vengeance base armor = 1020
Retribution = 1524
Enyo = 1099

EHP with only a damage control....Post nerf in bold.

Vengeance = 7175/6943
Retribution = 8153
Enyo = 7514

Lets throw a plate on them...

Vengeance = 9903/9500
Retribution = 10,199
Enyo = 9384

It is dead last in agility. Dead. Last. And that isn't even factoring plates. It is a hair faster than the caldari AFs...but they make up for it by having much better agility. [harpy 3.9 second align time, vengeance 4.6 with nothing fitted]

I would go into more detail but RL has kicked my ass. In closing, I would like to point out that you have to look at all the stats on the resist bonused ships.
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#709 - 2013-04-23 14:06:21 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:


I like how you want the most versatile bonus to retain it's strength and trample over the tanking bonuses of the other 2 races. I guess so long as variety consists of resist bonus ships everywhere but local tank bonuses only flown at the lower number engagement range you consider it balanced. So long as tanking bonuses are not homogenized, all bonus BUT the resist bonus will lend themselves to certain types of engagements.

As for nullsec blobs, actually if this nerf is bad enough to cause people to switch from Rokhs then it probably will result in greater diversity. You won't have a single, alpha-resistant go to ship. That said after a bit of theory crafting we will likely be right back in the same boat with a single effective minmax config. No one is going to stay with variety for varieties sake.


The list is what, two gallente boats and two minmatar boats. The rest are amarr and caldari.

Punisher and merlin just too OP
Moa and maller taking names
Ferox and prophecies blotting out the sun
Eagle and sacrilege putting everyone in their place

hurrrrrrrrrr
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#710 - 2013-04-23 19:16:58 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
This affects 44 ships total.

Shield:
Ibis, Taipan, Merlin, Worm, Harpy, Cambion, Moa, Gila, Eagle, Onyx, Broadsword, Drake, Ferox, Nighthawk, Vulture, Tengu, Loki, Skiff, Mackinaw, Hulk, Rokh, Scorpion Navy Issue, Rattlesnake, Chimera, Wyvern.

Armor:
Impairor, Punisher, Vengeance, Malice, Malediction, Maller, Sacrilege, Mimir, Vangel, Devoter, Phobos, Prophecy, Absolution, Damnation, Loki, Legion, Proteus, Abaddon, Archon, Aeon.

Ships that need this change:
Merlin, Harpy, Gila, Rokh, Loki

Ships that could do fine with this change:
Ibis, Taipan, Worm, Cambion, Moa, Drake, Mackinaw, Hulk, SNI, Rattlesnake, Impairor, Malice, Malediction (the resist bonus is pointless anyway), Mimir, Vangel, Prophecy, Abaddon, Legion, Tengu, Proteus

Ships that really don't need this change:
Eagle, Onyx, Broadsword, Ferox, Nighthawk, Vulture, Skiff, Chimera, Wyvern, Punisher, Vengeance, Maller, Sacrilege, Devoter, Phobos, Absolution, Damnation, Archon, Aeon

So, by my guess: 5 ships are more balanced by this change, 20 ships are more or less the same, and 19 ships are worse off when they didn't need to be.


+1

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#711 - 2013-04-23 20:23:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Templar Dane wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:


I like how you want the most versatile bonus to retain it's strength and trample over the tanking bonuses of the other 2 races. I guess so long as variety consists of resist bonus ships everywhere but local tank bonuses only flown at the lower number engagement range you consider it balanced. So long as tanking bonuses are not homogenized, all bonus BUT the resist bonus will lend themselves to certain types of engagements.

As for nullsec blobs, actually if this nerf is bad enough to cause people to switch from Rokhs then it probably will result in greater diversity. You won't have a single, alpha-resistant go to ship. That said after a bit of theory crafting we will likely be right back in the same boat with a single effective minmax config. No one is going to stay with variety for varieties sake.


The list is what, two gallente boats and two minmatar boats. The rest are amarr and caldari.

Punisher and merlin just too OP
Moa and maller taking names
Ferox and prophecies blotting out the sun
Eagle and sacrilege putting everyone in their place

hurrrrrrrrrr

What does any of that have to do with a comparison of resist bonuses to active tank bonuses? Realizing that these ships may have their issues, but at the same time it has nothing to do with the context you quoted, nor was it me saying those ships are fine or deserved nerfs. Infact the original comparison was drawn by someone else based on a 1 on 1, Mael v Rokh scenario (however extremely likely that is).

Also as to you other comment, what part of what you said contradicts my statement that their lowered speed and agility were racial traits? If you wanted the fastest ships, why were you looking to amarr?

In short, it helps to better look at a conversation rather than just make assumptions and insults based on poor understanding.
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#712 - 2013-04-23 21:24:48 UTC
Ereilian wrote:
So let me tl;dr this for you.

We (CCP) put in place a bonus system that at the time was great!!! Then the players found out it was better than great and started to use it as intended .... So now we are nerfing it ... and in some cases NERFING SHIPS THAT HAVE NOT BEEN MENTIONED YET. Cause Caldari are so OP we must nerf every single useful ship they have. Fck Caldari, everyone fly Maelstrom.

You also lament the rise of alpha, do you not realise you are just REINFORCING that doctrine with your changes. There is not one SINGLE change to the mainstay of alpha, but you are slapping the hell out of every other doctrinal ship. And lets not forget the nerfs on tengus, and the massive buff to Arti that made alpha so much more effective. Yeah foz this is all the players fault, nothing to do with incompetence by the devs who over the past few years have forced alpha to the front.

As for your CSM pets, yeah right as if there is any chance of them affecting real decision making. You went ahead with Aurum despite massive CSM disapproval, they are just a sock puppet as proved in the past year. So no I will not vote in your kangaroo election.



Thankyou for point this out.. It does enforce more Alpha fleets and Maels need a nerf.
Also caldari ships already are sucking in pvp, and this will ensure that they are worse.
Kenshi Hanshin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#713 - 2013-04-23 22:08:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenshi Hanshin
This change is a bad idea. It will unbalance multiple ships that were balanced recently. Among them would be the Caldari Drake. I understand the logic behind the proposed method.

However, changing bonuses like that to ships that were already balanced may unravel that work. I suggest that you (CPP) finish rebalancing the ship then take a look at the resistance issues. If it is still valid then would be the time to make a plan.
___________________________________________________________________________________________
As others have already stated and you surely know Caldari are trash for PvP. If you want to make it even worse than please make this change.

If you do, then I demand that you refund me all the skill points in Missile Launcher and Caldari Ship skills. Cause, it isn't my fault that you would be crapping all my training, essentially.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#714 - 2013-04-23 23:44:38 UTC
Was talking to a friend, and we actually came up with an idea that will both help to partially balance this nerf and also make a mod that CCP has introduced and seen hardly any use on more viable...

The Reactive Armor Hardner. To wit, make it so that you can to a limited extent preset where it's resists are at to begin with, then let it continue to be "reactive" after that.
Brother Welcome
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#715 - 2013-04-24 03:42:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Brother Welcome
My tuppence

1. Keep HICs at 5% for the reason posters have already pointed out, i.e. they don't get reps when doing their job.

2. Nerf BS' to 4% as planned but increase their armour/shield HPs so that their EHP stays the same while the dynamic of their ablation/repping changes as desired. That will have the side effect of improving them for lower skill level players. It will keep them effective in smaller gangs. Obliquely, it may produce a tiny nerf to alpha.

3. Possibly ditto for Cruisers.

4. Do frigates really benefit as much as bigger classes from reppers? Is 5% a level really so distorting for these ships?
XDMR
Cruzakh Rule Breaking Bastards
#716 - 2013-04-24 07:19:39 UTC
Brother Welcome wrote:
My tuppence

2. Nerf BS' to 4% as planned but increase their armour/shield HPs so that their EHP stays the same while the dynamic of their ablation/repping changes as desired. That will have the side effect of improving them for lower skill level players. It will keep them effective in smaller gangs. Obliquely, it may produce a tiny nerf to alpha.



Why not the exact opposite? Leave the resi bonus but nerf base shield or armor hp. This would push them "more" towards active tanking.

Some people say i fly Rokh...
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#717 - 2013-04-24 09:12:54 UTC
XDMR wrote:
Brother Welcome wrote:
My tuppence

2. Nerf BS' to 4% as planned but increase their armour/shield HPs so that their EHP stays the same while the dynamic of their ablation/repping changes as desired. That will have the side effect of improving them for lower skill level players. It will keep them effective in smaller gangs. Obliquely, it may produce a tiny nerf to alpha.


Why not the exact opposite? Leave the resi bonus but nerf base shield or armor hp. This would push them "more" towards active tanking.

Neither one is applicable as long as buffer tanks and RR exists .. the issue is not that they are too good at active tanking but that the benefit they do have in that regard carries over and is multiplied when buffers/RR enter the picture.

Buffers should be adjusted, period. Way too good at too low a cost .. doubly so now that CCP caved and reduced mass of plates + honeycombing.

RR is powerful, very powerful .. why not shake that one up?
Logistics provide the materials (nanites) but the recipient has to power the things. HP/Cap ratio should be high'ish, say 4x that of a local rep but it would at least require something from the client .. hell, one could completely demolish the apple cart and require wanna-be clients to have scrap in cargo to be used as raw materials by the nanites!
* Change bonuses on logistics ships to fit a new paradigm.

Cat has many lives, don't hold back experiments to find the optimal way of skinning it!
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#718 - 2013-04-24 20:10:43 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
XDMR wrote:
Brother Welcome wrote:
My tuppence

2. Nerf BS' to 4% as planned but increase their armour/shield HPs so that their EHP stays the same while the dynamic of their ablation/repping changes as desired. That will have the side effect of improving them for lower skill level players. It will keep them effective in smaller gangs. Obliquely, it may produce a tiny nerf to alpha.


Why not the exact opposite? Leave the resi bonus but nerf base shield or armor hp. This would push them "more" towards active tanking.

Neither one is applicable as long as buffer tanks and RR exists .. the issue is not that they are too good at active tanking but that the benefit they do have in that regard carries over and is multiplied when buffers/RR enter the picture.

Buffers should be adjusted, period. Way too good at too low a cost .. doubly so now that CCP caved and reduced mass of plates + honeycombing.

RR is powerful, very powerful .. why not shake that one up?
Logistics provide the materials (nanites) but the recipient has to power the things. HP/Cap ratio should be high'ish, say 4x that of a local rep but it would at least require something from the client .. hell, one could completely demolish the apple cart and require wanna-be clients to have scrap in cargo to be used as raw materials by the nanites!
* Change bonuses on logistics ships to fit a new paradigm.

Cat has many lives, don't hold back experiments to find the optimal way of skinning it!


Maelstrom called.. He laughs at buffer tanks while lacking a resist bonus and having a rep bonus.
You can buffer minnie ships with rep bonus and still get great tanks.

Irony.. Caldari tech is supposed to be better and they are actually worse in tanking and weapon systems.
MrDiao
Fuxi Legion
Fraternity.
#719 - 2013-04-24 20:45:09 UTC  |  Edited by: MrDiao
Good. Especially for capitalships and battleships, the 5% bonus are making some of the said ships too outstanding. While some other ships, especially the medium shied and frigates, will suffer from this change, a thorough rebalance should be then initialized.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#720 - 2013-04-24 21:16:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Dersen Lowery
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
fleet ships don't run local tank (except possibly LOL XLASB).


Why is this, gentlemen? I really would like to hear you opine on the matter. Why are local reps unviable in fleets?


Since nobody else took this up:

Local reps mean, in the average case, two rig slots and two or three low slots that increase neither relevant buffer[1] nor resists. That means that they fall short on every significant measure that a logistics pilot is looking for:

1) No relevant buffer[2] means increased vulnerability to alpha and much less time for the logistics pilots to apply reps.
2) Low resists are a triple nerf: they mean higher incoming damage, less relevant buffer, and less effective reps.

Assuming it survives an alpha strike--and above a certain fleet size alpha is more a matter of pilot discipline than it is of weapon choice--the active-tanked ship can rep itself, and that will be roughly equivalent to getting reps from a single logistics ship. But it will be less effective than a high-resist ship getting reps from the same logistics ship, and the latter case scales up linearly with the number of logistics ships on field. Local tanks don't scale.

As a result, active tanked ships are never seen outside of kitchen-sink fleets if there are logi, at least above the frigate scale. In fleets, resists matter from cruisers on up (and I'm sure there are fleets of e.g., Punishers, that benefit from the same arrangement, though I've never flown in one), and so resist-bonused ships are naturally favored.


[1] shield buffer + resists for shield logistics, armor buffer + resists for armor logistics.
[2] Gallente are a bit of an edge case: for historical reasons, they can use hull as buffer if they fit a damage control, and it works pretty well.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!