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[Odyssey] Ship Resistance Bonuses

First post First post
Author
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#21 - 2013-04-12 16:03:28 UTC
Two step wrote:
In a (probably futile) attempt to catch up with Fozzie on likes, if you don't like this, go unlike a past awesome Fozzie post

And my actual response to the thread is that I think this will require a re-look at some of the already balanced ships that had this bonus, and possibly some adjustments. I do agree that resist bonuses are very good, but the fact that some of the ships listed are terrible means that the bonus isn't completely OP.

Aye, suggested that myself when it became clear what was happening. Could be crudely done by adding a bit to the primary tank level roughly equivalent to what is lost (naked = sans buffer mods) .. won't be much on the smaller hulls affected but should be enough to make people (myself included) feel not quite so thoroughly shafted.

Refined solution is to "simply" revise ships affected and look at everything again, replace lost tank with damage, speed, agility, sensors etc.

Annoying part for me is that it was the infernal buffer monkeys out there that brought this about, that one measly percent will in a lot of frig/cruiser fights literally mean wins (usually pretty narrow) being turned into losses when active tanking.
Ivana Twinkle
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2013-04-12 16:06:19 UTC
:cripes:
Alice Saki
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#23 - 2013-04-12 16:06:21 UTC
Welcome to Breaking Eve Online.

FREEZE! Drop the LIKES AND WALK AWAY! - Currenly rebuilding gaming machine, I will Return.

Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#24 - 2013-04-12 16:09:37 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Shield:
Ibis, Taipan, Merlin, Worm, Harpy, Cambion, Moa, Gila, Eagle, Onyx, Broadsword, Drake, Ferox, Nighthawk, Vulture, Tengu, Loki, Skiff, Mackinaw, Hulk, Rokh, Scorpion Navy Issue, Rattlesnake, Chimera, Wyvern.

Armor:
Impairor, Punisher, Vengeance, Malice, Malediction, Maller, Sacrilege, Mimir, Vangel, Devoter, Phobos, Prophecy, Absolution, Damnation, Loki, Legion, Proteus, Abaddon, Archon, Aeon.



So am I correct to assume that all of these ships will be looked at before the 1% resistance nerf hits TQ?

Not today spaghetti.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#25 - 2013-04-12 16:10:37 UTC
Numbers seem legit.

I got nothing.
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2013-04-12 16:10:57 UTC
Maybe this will finally get rid of the exhumer meta that's dominating the game.
Rynnik
Evasion Gaming
The Ancients.
#27 - 2013-04-12 16:11:04 UTC
This is rediculous and a blanket nerf to a ton of ships that need help if anything. The meta implications of nerfing HICs, triage, and everything else this will touch is completely opposite of anything I would have asked for.
Luc Chastot
#28 - 2013-04-12 16:11:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Luc Chastot
How does this change the fact active tanking bonuses are useless for fleets, thus completely wasted? Also, how does this change the fact Gallente has 4 ships with an almost useless bonus, while Minmatar has only 3?

So, what I'm seeing here is that not only have Caldari and Amarr plenty of ships with the better bonus, but also Gallente is in a worse position than Minmatar, while also having to deal with blasters' range and drones.

Edit: Yay.

Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot.

CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#29 - 2013-04-12 16:11:48 UTC
One thing I'll quickly mention is that 1 / 0.8 = 1.25. This means that the new bonus (20% resists at level 5) will actually equal a 25% increase in Effective Reps. Still very significant (in fact it's probably what a lot of people assumed the old bonus gave). However the difference between 25% and 37.5% is a lot more noticeable than the difference between 33% and 37.5%.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

StarFleetCommander
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#30 - 2013-04-12 16:12:11 UTC
making our tech 3 fleets abit less effective :(
BiggestT
Konvict Cartel
Solyaris Chtonium
#31 - 2013-04-12 16:12:44 UTC  |  Edited by: BiggestT
CCP Fozzie wrote:
For example a 25% increase in armor hitpoints applies quite intuitively: (Base HP) * 1.25 = a 25% increase in total EHP.

In contrast a resistance bonus actually benefits your ships by decreasing incoming damage. So a ship with 25% resistance bonus takes 25% less damage from hostiles. This ends up applying to their effective hitpoints as: (Base HP) / 0.75 = a 33% increase in total EHP.

So while a 37.5% rep bonus increases effective repping by 37.5%, and a 50% armor hp bonus increases effective hitpoints by 50%, a 25% resistance bonus actually increases both by 33% (not the 25% that might be assumed at first glance).
In practice that means that for pure amount repped over time, a 25% resistance bonus is only 3% less powerful than a 37.5% rep bonus.

This is one of the main reasons that resistance bonuses completely overshadow local repair bonuses.


So? That's still 3% LESS not MORE, so a rokh will rep less than a maelstrom, yet the rokh gets nerfed?
Remember that a mael is much more popular in general and more powerful dps wise (with higer aplha to boot) than a rokh, even with the current staus quo, why do you ignore this?

CCP Fozzie wrote:
Resistance bonuses also have several other huge advantages over our other tanking bonuses. At the end of the day what tanking bonuses really do is keep you alive longer. Active bonuses are strongest when the damage you are taking is weaker, while passive EHP bonuses help more when incoming DPS is higher, but both serve to increase the amount of time you can remain on the battlefield under fire. Since it applies to both reps (local or remote) and to passive EHP, a resistance bonus dominates in most situations.


And? No one passive/buffer tanks a rokh! Irrelevant point. Edit: Excluding huge blob fest fleets of course, and we all know that is the only type of pvp amirite? [/sarcasm]

CCP Fozzie wrote:
Ship resistance bonuses also have the huge advantage of not being stacking penalized in a bonus category that is very often a few layers deep into the stacking penalty once the ship is fully fitted.


No other ship skill bonus gets a stacking penalty either.
Shield/armour mods have stacking penalties, damage mods have stacking penalties. It's uniform across the board.
This point is also moot.

CCP Fozzie wrote:
Finally it's important to look at the value of these resistance bonuses combined with remote repair modules. Remote repair systems are extremely powerful in the current EVE meta, and I have stated in the past that we do not intend to increase the power of the highest end repair strategies (Tech Two Logistics and capital remote repairing) because they are on the edge of overpowered. Remote repair gameplay is some of the most fun gameplay we have (and is my personal favourite activity in 0.0) but is also responsible for discouraging fights and for forcing the rise of alpha-only strategies. Spidertanking strategies like Slowcat carriers are some of the post powerful tactics in the game, and it's no accident that those strategies rely entirely on resist bonused ships.


And so we come to the real reason you're nerfing the rokh and abbadon: RR.

Hint: don't nerf the ships, nerf the mods, the ships are fine in every other aspect!
I'll use an analogy I used earlier: you're blaming the bread for being burnt by the toaster.

EVEN CONSIDERING THIS.

The rokh was never overpowered, it's actually a poor RR platform (no spare high slot).
How is it a problem if no one ever complained? No RR changes are happening in this expansion so how why is this change needed now, why did you change something that no one asked for or wanted??

The rokh will still be useful as a fleet BS yes, but it has always been only marginal in other roles. This change makes that worse. The maelstrom is now much, much better.

These changes were supposed to bring versatility to the neglected caldari BS's but you NERFED a ship that did not need to be nerfed! Skrew the blanket changes, assess each ship individually, not just a lazy one size fits all change to 4% for everything!

CCP Fozzie wrote:
So our plan for Odyssey is to remove 1% per level from all the standard ship and subsystem resistance bonuses, setting them at 4% per level.


Worst. Plan. Ever. 0/10.


CCP Fozzie wrote:
This affects 44 ships total.


Great, so you are thinking of applying a blanket change?

If so: F*CKING LAZY.

Assess each ship individually! Not together! Most of those ships were already balanced/under powered, you must reconsider!

I really like that you and CCP Rise are making some big changes and have a passion for this game, but this is a mistake and no one wants it. I know you guys can do much better!

Edit:

Alse, regarding your "If you don't like it too bad, just talk to the CSM lol!"

Well that is the biggest f*cking cop out I've ever seen. Zero Accountability to this huge nerf that hits 44 balanced/under powered ships.
It's like the speed nerf of years ago all over again (except no one wants this nerf).

Bad. Bad. F*cking bad.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#32 - 2013-04-12 16:13:04 UTC
what you need is another variable in the equation.

an example:
resistances have a small penalty to remote repping (e.g effective_remote_rep_amount = average_ resistance/50*remote_rep_amount)

otherwise you have a bonus which makes you better in everything and you can not have it as high as you might want

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#33 - 2013-04-12 16:13:22 UTC
mynnna wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
IMPORTANT NOTICE: If you feel strongly about this change, either liking or disliking it, you should vote for CSM 8 and tell your representatives how you feel. CSM 8 will be taking office before the launch of Odyssey.
Vote from now until April 18th here.


I'll tell you that it's a good change and you should kiss off, but if you dislike the change, maybe you'll get lucky and Travis Musgrat will get elected. You'll probably find a sympathetic ear from him... he just loves overpowered things. Lol


Drat! There goes my change to steal the election from Mynnna. As obviously you'd vote for me if you disagreeds and I also disagreed. But I don't.

It's a well reasoned change.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
Parasitic Legion.
#34 - 2013-04-12 16:13:42 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
One thing I'll quickly mention is that 1 / 0.8 = 1.25. This means that the new bonus (20% resists at level 5) will actually equal a 25% increase in Effective Reps. Still very significant (in fact it's probably what a lot of people assumed the old bonus gave). However the difference between 25% and 37.5% is a lot more noticeable than the difference between 33% and 37.5%.

But that does not address that rep bonuses are only good against sustained DPS and not high alpha damage, where resistance bonuses are good for both.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
Shadow Cartel
#35 - 2013-04-12 16:14:51 UTC
5% resist bonus ships are great anti blob ships. It is one of the few things that gives u any chance against a blob.
The problem is that the blob can bring that 5% resist ship too, right?
Yes, but the real problem is the accessibility of those ships.
T1 hulls are easy accessible to everyone and having blobs fly with T1 5% resist ships is the real problem.

The conclusion is to leave 5% resist bonuses to T2, T3 hulls and capitals and remove them from T1 hulls.
Why T2, T3 and capitals? Well u diminish the blob by alot if u decide to go out with T2, T3 or capital ships.

Resist bonuses need to stay in the game. That bonus is great to show out some skill and compete with blobs.

BALEX, bringing piracy on a whole new level.

Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2013-04-12 16:15:36 UTC
This is a buff to the already overpowered alpha doctrines

Not exactly cool.

For all other context:

Some ships may need some rebalancing, others may need more work than they need now, but not exactly a problem
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#37 - 2013-04-12 16:15:59 UTC
4% is fine.
Unforgiven Storm
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#38 - 2013-04-12 16:16:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Unforgiven Storm
Can I suggest not to apply the 4% to T2 ships in this expansion since most of them are in pretty bad shape since the tiercide hit their T1 "cousins" and we only apply this change when you "tiercide" them.

This way we avoid putting the T2 in a even worse state.

* exception to assault ships

Unforgiven Storm for CSM 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. (If I don't get in in the next 5 years I will quit trying) :-)

Ali Aras
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2013-04-12 16:16:04 UTC
Rynnik wrote:
This is rediculous and a blanket nerf to a ton of ships that need help if anything. The meta implications of nerfing HICs, triage, and everything else this will touch is completely opposite of anything I would have asked for.

I was with you on hics until I looked at the numbers. Hics are the only ship (of the above) that both enters a remote-rep immune state and gains no local-rep bonus to compensate. Under this change, a broadsword will lose...about 5k ehp. Which isn't much! I'd be happy if CCP snuck in a little more shield capacity to compensate (as the buffer won't be as OP as the resists), but overall, it's pretty okay and the nerf elsewhere was needed.

http://warp-to-sun.tumblr.com -- my blog

Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#40 - 2013-04-12 16:16:49 UTC
Zloco Crendraven wrote:
5% resist bonus ships are great anti blob ships. It is one of the few things that gives u any chance against a blob.
The problem is that the blob can bring that 5% resist ship too, right?
Yes, but the real problem is the accessibility of those ships.
T1 hulls are easy accessible to everyone and having blobs fly with T1 5% resist ships is the real problem.

The conclusion is to leave 5% resist bonuses to T2, T3 hulls and capitals and remove them from T1 hulls.
Why T2, T3 and capitals? Well u diminish the blob by alot if u decide to go out with T2, T3 or capital ships.

Resist bonuses need to stay in the game. That bonus is great to show out some skill and compete with blobs.

Right, because you know the blob never uses those 5% resist ships either... Roll