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The Great Null Sec Push
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Skunk Gracklaw
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#81 - 2011-10-17 23:02:03 UTC
Psychophantic wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
level4s have been a huge mistake and need to go

highsec incursions might be a problem


Roll

Oh hai thar goon.

Him being a goon doesn't make him wrong. Level 4 missions and incursions provide way too much isk for the risk involved.
Kengutsi Akira
Doomheim
#82 - 2011-10-17 23:26:25 UTC
Adelphie wrote:
As an example I recently flew an unscouted battlecruiser through 7 hostile nullsec regions looking for fights and came home without a fight to my name... not even a blob. This does not marry up with the general highsec player's view that null is cold, harsh and dangerous - which it should be.


Trying to get podded so Id pop back in highsec, I went through 25 jumps in the Wicked Creek area in null.
25 jumps, on autopilot, in a pod, in null.

I finally ran into a gate camp where the ppl there were nice enough to just pod me after I told em what I was doing lol

But yea, trips like that make the high sec ppl think null isnt as scary as it should be lol

"Is it fair that CCP can get away with..." :: checks ownership on the box ::

Yes
Tarikla
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#83 - 2011-10-17 23:26:36 UTC
Skunk Gracklaw wrote:
Psychophantic wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
level4s have been a huge mistake and need to go

highsec incursions might be a problem


Roll

Oh hai thar goon.

Him being a goon doesn't make him wrong. Level 4 missions and incursions provide way too much isk for the risk involved.


OR you could say 0.0 is not providing enough ISK for the risk it involve .

If you nerf HS , 0.0 dwellers would still cry at least a bit , and HS dwellers would just (rage)quit . Everyone would be sad panda .

If you buff 0.0 , 0.0 dwellers would be happ(y)(ier) and HS dwellers would just keep going as usual . Everyone would be happy family .

But those kind of posts do not suprise me . After all , you are GOONS , you want to DESTROY OUR GAME , right ?
Elise DarkStar
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#84 - 2011-10-17 23:27:56 UTC
Hisec incursions are good because they get people working together, but they need a much greater element of competition between groups to justify the returns.
The Apostle
Doomheim
#85 - 2011-10-17 23:29:21 UTC  |  Edited by: The Apostle
Weaselior wrote:
really the one thing that needs to be nerfed (but never will be) in empire is level 4 missions: they set the minimum income level you need for 0.0 to be worth it so high that it can't be met. nothing else in empire comes close to running level 4 missions in virtual safety: it's just not worth bothering killing mission runners in t2 fits in ravens even if you want to just for the fun of it. ice miners are more at risk than missioners and they make less than a fifth of what mission runners make

0.0 should be buffed rather than empire flat nerfed, but level4s have been a huge mistake and need to go, they're the only thing in highsec so out of whack that it hurts efforts to balance 0.0

highsec incursions might be a problem, dunno, but at least those force cooperation and may allow proto-corps to form

This is one the most erudite and informative posts I have ever seen you write but I'm curious why "nerf L4 missions" is always on the agenda.

On one hand we're told Eve is not about the money, on the other hand we're being told it is.

For many, L4's give them the money to expand horizons - WH's/0.0... For others, L4 mission running is all they want to do.

Nerfing L4's won't push most people into nullsec, it'll simply push them into unsubsec.

Here's the thing, I currently have billions to play with, earned by a combination of missions/mining/BPO's etc over the years. Last time I went to 0.0, I shut all my indy down, closed my corp and alliance and went AWOL.

I went to 0.0 looking for fights, fun and finance. In 2 alliances there was SRF which was fine on fleet ops but on small roams I had to fund it myself. Unless I start with billions in reserve, how the heck can I play with reckless abandon on small roams when I am unable to replace my ships due to lost income?

They nerfed Sanctums in 0.0, the cloakies moved in to deny the good systems and I ended up flying around chaining up belts all day to make a living! You can only do that for so long.

When I ran out of coin, I went BACK to highsec BECAUSE it was too fn hard to make iskies in 0.0. Now get this. In highsec I came back with the ability to put up my own towers, I can research, manufacture, do missions, go mining or do some lowsec/WH roams for gigglez.. I got choices - and lots of them.

And from that you might well say that highsec is just too good and easy.

However, I do NOT want to go back to 0.0 because there's no point. I'm subserviant to a GrandLord, I cannot have assets/moons of my own and MY income was knocked out with Sanctum nerfs etc.

And for the Average Joe in 0.0, they only got mining and ratting. Every other income potential is already "distributed". (Ironically, to provide the funds for SRF when you lose ships protecting the assets that funds the SRF...)


Seriously, I for one am getting really pissed off being told what I SHOULD be doing in "this sandbox".

And it always comes back to same ol' reason, wtf for?

[i]Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest. WTB: An Austrian kangaroo![/i]
Kengutsi Akira
Doomheim
#86 - 2011-10-17 23:30:15 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
because goonswarm was a disruptive force


wait arent you part of DRF who are doing the complete opposite of this in 0.0 now?
lol

"Is it fair that CCP can get away with..." :: checks ownership on the box ::

Yes
Kengutsi Akira
Doomheim
#87 - 2011-10-17 23:35:46 UTC
Tarikla wrote:
Skunk Gracklaw wrote:
Psychophantic wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
level4s have been a huge mistake and need to go

highsec incursions might be a problem


Roll

Oh hai thar goon.

Him being a goon doesn't make him wrong. Level 4 missions and incursions provide way too much isk for the risk involved.


OR you could say 0.0 is not providing enough ISK for the risk it involve .

If you nerf HS , 0.0 dwellers would still cry at least a bit , and HS dwellers would just (rage)quit . Everyone would be sad panda .

If you buff 0.0 , 0.0 dwellers would be happ(y)(ier) and HS dwellers would just keep going as usual . Everyone would be happy family .

But those kind of posts do not suprise me . After all , you are GOONS , you want to DESTROY OUR GAME , right ?


see its funny, all they really need to do to make 0.0 better is BOOST the amount of money you can get by going there

HOWEVER - CCP chose to NERF the things that were doing this - Sanctums
When 0.0 started making too much money, CCP nerfed their ability to make it...
Seems to me they DONT want 0.0 players making more than high sec players. No matter how much the 0.0 players scream about it, CCP's past actions show where they sit

"Is it fair that CCP can get away with..." :: checks ownership on the box ::

Yes
Adelphie
The Lone Wolves.
#88 - 2011-10-17 23:36:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Adelphie
Tarikla wrote:


OR you could say 0.0 is not providing enough ISK for the risk it involve .

If you nerf HS , 0.0 dwellers would still cry at least a bit , and HS dwellers would just (rage)quit . Everyone would be sad panda .

If you buff 0.0 , 0.0 dwellers would be happ(y)(ier) and HS dwellers would just keep going as usual . Everyone would be happy family .

But those kind of posts do not suprise me . After all , you are GOONS , you want to DESTROY OUR GAME , right ?


I think that this is too simplistic.

The issue is not the disparity of isk between highsec and null. If you know what you are doing then null is a goldmine. The issue is that the ammount of isk in lvl4's compared to the cost of t2/t3/faction ships is out of whack, so that there are very few ships short of supercaps which you really have to bust a ball (or take a risk) to earn.

When I began this game even coming across a battleship left you in awe. Now there are macherials, pimped t3s and officer fit mauraders everywhere you look... and the truth is that when you lose one the majority of players can earn the isk back relatively quickly whilst taking little risk.

This goes back to what I was saying about making nullsec more appealing - if the barriers to entry of flying such ships were higher then people would flock to isk goldmines open to those in null as it would open more avenues of play.
Aidan Brooder
Dynasphere Ltd.
#89 - 2011-10-17 23:53:52 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Lharanai wrote:

All said, thanks, its not 0.0 vs High Sec, its hardcore vs casual, whatever you do one faction will be unhappy


What CCP needs to do is figure out how to make a "grass is greener" scenario, realizing that removing the grass from high sec is cheating. Thing is... your carebear types won't be going to null simply because they prefer safer space. It's who they are, and if you make changes to the game that push them too far outside their comfort zones they're more likely to stop playing than they are to go where they're not comfortable, and not happy at being forced to move.

So here's the real problem... to get more people into null space you actually need to make is safer. However, if you make it safer, you're effectively killing null space. It's an unenviable task. However, taking things away from high sec/ wormholes, etc. will not push people into null. It'll just push them to other games.


You do not need to make null sec safer and definitely not all people in High Sec are sissies afraid to lose some ships or all of them. Most stand up and start anew. Those who leave because they lose ships I'd agree are playing the wrong game.

I think you should get rid of that idea of cowardly carebears in HS and leet PVPers in 0.0. It is wrong.
How about you re-read the earlier post I made here where I tried to explain (again)? It is a wall of text, I admit it, but perhaps it makes you understand.

Blog: http://aidanbrooder.wordpress.com My EVE Playlist on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLSNuHY7z8n1q1BdLvW2verIfH8vvWtz_x
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#90 - 2011-10-18 00:26:54 UTC
Tarikla wrote:
Skunk Gracklaw wrote:
Psychophantic wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
level4s have been a huge mistake and need to go

highsec incursions might be a problem


Roll

Oh hai thar goon.

Him being a goon doesn't make him wrong. Level 4 missions and incursions provide way too much isk for the risk involved.


OR you could say 0.0 is not providing enough ISK for the risk it involve .



Sure. But level 4s make the required 0.0 isk generation for it to be worth it much, much higher. That has potential inflation problems. It also doesn't fix level 4s being so out of whack with every other highsec profession. Level 4s aren't just a problem because of the amount of isk they make relative to 0.0. They make too much isk compared to every other highsec profession. I mean it takes more training to use a mack than a t2 raven (I think, or they're roughly equivalent). But mining ice, you're easily ganked, and make much less money. The right answer to make isk in highsec is always, always, "run level 4s".

If you boost 0.0 to a level where it should be to attract new people compared to empire l4s, it's just got to be stupendously higher than if you nerf l4s (leaving level threes, so missioning is still a viable highsec profession, just not the best by far).

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#91 - 2011-10-18 00:28:19 UTC
Kengutsi Akira wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
because goonswarm was a disruptive force


wait arent you part of DRF who are doing the complete opposite of this in 0.0 now?
lol



the DCF (not the DRF) is explicitly intended to show just how bad 0.0 has gotten. fighting isn't fun, there's no point, why do it? EVE would be a lot more fun if a new disruptive alliance could exist, but right now it can't and CCP needs to realize that

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Gealla
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#92 - 2011-10-18 00:29:39 UTC
Aidan Brooder wrote:

You do not need to make null sec safer and definitely not all people in High Sec are sissies afraid to lose some ships or all of them. Most stand up and start anew. Those who leave because they lose ships I'd agree are playing the wrong game.

I think you should get rid of that idea of cowardly carebears in HS and leet PVPers in 0.0. It is wrong.
How about you re-read the earlier post I made here where I tried to explain (again)? It is a wall of text, I admit it, but perhaps it makes you understand.


This ^^

In a game loudly touted as the worlds most premiere sandbox MMO, to have one group of players telling another that they need to play a certain way is probably the most ironic thing of all.

The bottom line is, it's those that see themselves as hardcore players, trying to bully the casuals into playing their way

Oh well, when all the casuals leave for something else, it can be renamed to Douchebag Online, and the 5800 remaining hardcore players can trash talk each other in local anywhere they want.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#93 - 2011-10-18 00:35:41 UTC
The Apostle wrote:

They nerfed Sanctums in 0.0, the cloakies moved in to deny the good systems and I ended up flying around chaining up belts all day to make a living! You can only do that for so long.

When I ran out of coin, I went BACK to highsec BECAUSE it was too fn hard to make iskies in 0.0. Now get this. In highsec I came back with the ability to put up my own towers, I can research, manufacture, do missions, go mining or do some lowsec/WH roams for gigglez.. I got choices - and lots of them.

And from that you might well say that highsec is just too good and easy.

However, I do NOT want to go back to 0.0 because there's no point. I'm subserviant to a GrandLord, I cannot have assets/moons of my own and MY income was knocked out with Sanctum nerfs etc.

And for the Average Joe in 0.0, they only got mining and ratting. Every other income potential is already "distributed". (Ironically, to provide the funds for SRF when you lose ships protecting the assets that funds the SRF...)


Seriously, I for one am getting really pissed off being told what I SHOULD be doing in "this sandbox".

And it always comes back to same ol' reason, wtf for?


I don't disagree with any of this: part of the whole 0.0 takeover of the CSM was because 0.0 has stagnated and become unfun. you should be rewarded for trying to survive in 0.0, get a risk premium to deal with the fact that people are trying to murder you everywhere, and for there to be content that makes it fun to be in 0.0. The problem is CCP's bad decisions have removed the ability of new alliances to make it in 0.0, and have removed the point of striving for it. Highsec people wanting to carve their own empire out of 0.0 so they can do something cooler than in highsec, or just make more money, adds to the game. The problem is that's steadily declined. There's not a reward for being in 0.0 to make the challenge more fun.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#94 - 2011-10-18 00:36:25 UTC
Gealla wrote:
Aidan Brooder wrote:

You do not need to make null sec safer and definitely not all people in High Sec are sissies afraid to lose some ships or all of them. Most stand up and start anew. Those who leave because they lose ships I'd agree are playing the wrong game.

I think you should get rid of that idea of cowardly carebears in HS and leet PVPers in 0.0. It is wrong.
How about you re-read the earlier post I made here where I tried to explain (again)? It is a wall of text, I admit it, but perhaps it makes you understand.


This ^^

In a game loudly touted as the worlds most premiere sandbox MMO, to have one group of players telling another that they need to play a certain way is probably the most ironic thing of all.

The bottom line is, it's those that see themselves as hardcore players, trying to bully the casuals into playing their way

Oh well, when all the casuals leave for something else, it can be renamed to Douchebag Online, and the 5800 remaining hardcore players can trash talk each other in local anywhere they want.


bullying is the best part of the game, unironically

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Aidan Brooder
Dynasphere Ltd.
#95 - 2011-10-18 00:41:15 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Tarikla wrote:
Skunk Gracklaw wrote:
Psychophantic wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
level4s have been a huge mistake and need to go

highsec incursions might be a problem


Roll

Oh hai thar goon.

Him being a goon doesn't make him wrong. Level 4 missions and incursions provide way too much isk for the risk involved.


OR you could say 0.0 is not providing enough ISK for the risk it involve .



Sure. But level 4s make the required 0.0 isk generation for it to be worth it much, much higher. That has potential inflation problems. It also doesn't fix level 4s being so out of whack with every other highsec profession. Level 4s aren't just a problem because of the amount of isk they make relative to 0.0. They make too much isk compared to every other highsec profession. I mean it takes more training to use a mack than a t2 raven (I think, or they're roughly equivalent). But mining ice, you're easily ganked, and make much less money. The right answer to make isk in highsec is always, always, "run level 4s".

If you boost 0.0 to a level where it should be to attract new people compared to empire l4s, it's just got to be stupendously higher than if you nerf l4s (leaving level threes, so missioning is still a viable highsec profession, just not the best by far).


I think there should be other reasons to go to 0.0 than just ISK returns.
0.0 should have features that are exclusive in a way beyond ISK. That will attract people to perhaps go there, once there is no BlueBall anymore. At the moment there is no reason at all. The map was much more varied once.

As for Ice Mining vs Level 4s...
I do both and I think I get approximately the same amount of ISK/hour if I refine and sell wisely. Scanned large fields being the target not the belts... More fun also, needs the corp and some protectors, not solo-AFK mining.

Blog: http://aidanbrooder.wordpress.com My EVE Playlist on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLSNuHY7z8n1q1BdLvW2verIfH8vvWtz_x
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#96 - 2011-10-18 00:48:38 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Sure. But level 4s make the required 0.0 isk generation for it to be worth it much, much higher.


Nullsec ratting in a failfit drake: 60M ISK/hr. No agents. No warping to station. No LP-to-ISK-conversion. Just ratting in belts until intel reports reds inbound, then either warp to POS or join the counter-attack.

Level 4s in hisec: 60M ISK/hr if you're cherry-picking and have a bunch of agents to pick from, and managing LP to ISK conversion, and flying a T2+faction fit mission boat.


Quote:
But mining ice, you're easily ganked, and make much less money. The right answer to make isk in highsec is always, always, "run level 4s".


Only if you're looking at ways to make ISK while active at the keyboard. Read the Making ISK guide for more ideas of how to make ISK while not sitting at the keyboard.

Of course all this focus on ISK income makes it sound like the reason people don't go out to null sec to become mindless drones in someone else's empire, is that the individual income out in null is a deciding factor. There are many other factors in play here: the aversion to loss (which can be overcome with encouragement), the perception of being required to log in on demand, the perception of being required to follow orders, the perception of having no opportunity to explore the possibilities of null sec individually.

In fact, many people think that moving out to null sec is one step short of a gaol sentence.

The problem is not null sec, it's not game mechanics, it's not ISK income potential for lazy super cap pilots.

The problem with null sec is the people who live there, who seem to view hisec as a vast untapped supply of warm bodies, even when they themselves are running a few enthusiastically ratting alts in hisec to make up the risk-free ISK to buy the extra super caps to fund their super cap blob habit.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Psychophantic
#97 - 2011-10-18 00:49:28 UTC
Weaselior wrote:

If you boost 0.0 to a level where it should be to attract new people compared to empire l4s, it's just got to be stupendously higher than if you nerf l4s (leaving level threes, so missioning is still a viable highsec profession, just not the best by far).


I read that you want more hi-sec miners to gank.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#98 - 2011-10-18 00:52:16 UTC
Aidan Brooder wrote:


I think there should be other reasons to go to 0.0 than just ISK returns.
0.0 should have features that are exclusive in a way beyond ISK. That will attract people to perhaps go there, once there is no BlueBall anymore. At the moment there is no reason at all. The map was much more varied once.

As for Ice Mining vs Level 4s...
I do both and I think I get approximately the same amount of ISK/hour if I refine and sell wisely. Scanned large fields being the target not the belts... More fun also, needs the corp and some protectors, not solo-AFK mining.


Of course, 0.0 should be more fun for a lot more than just making money. But more rewarding is important: everything you do in 0.0 is harder. There needs to be some feeling that effort is getting you something for it to be fun, instead of a chore. And a "gold rush" mentality is a lot of fun - it just needs to be something diffuse and taxable (like ratting) so while the corporation and alliance benefit and there's an organizational incentive, it's largely generated by individuals making their own money rather than point sources like tech moons or static plexes that don't give the line member anything.

Line members of goonswarm were pretty ******* excited when we conquered better ratting territory way back when. That's sort of what they were going after with the sanctum nerf, but were heavy-handed and lazy (nerfing something is easier than generating new content) and basically just wrecked things. Nobody fights over better sanctum space.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#99 - 2011-10-18 00:57:45 UTC
Psychophantic wrote:
Weaselior wrote:

If you boost 0.0 to a level where it should be to attract new people compared to empire l4s, it's just got to be stupendously higher than if you nerf l4s (leaving level threes, so missioning is still a viable highsec profession, just not the best by far).


I read that you want more hi-sec miners to gank.


god I love ganking people in highsec forever and ever the only times I've really played this game compulsively logged in, instead of from jabber, has been ganking people in highsec

it's really the most fun you can have in eve I recommend it to everyone

sadly, it's not possible to do that sort of thing in 0.0 anymore, so even if I wanted a challenge it'd just be annoying and pointless trying to gank people in 0.0

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#100 - 2011-10-18 01:02:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Weaselior
plus when it gets down to it, if you're playing eve just for pve you really are playing the wrong game: mining, ratting, missioning, plexing, these are all ******* terrible pve. they're unimaginably bad: you really should be playing a different game if that's what you want to do. eve's two unique features are it's real-loss nature, and it's amazingly complex economy. If what you're doing in eve doesn't involve one of those two, you're playing a game that is completely outclassed by most of the competition. EvE is about building sandcastles and knocking them over: playing it for any other reason is stupid. Not stupid in the sense that people who enjoy those things are stupid, but that playing eve is such a terrible way to scratch that itch. this isn't insulting (except to whoever developed those parts of eve) but they're just terrible. Play WOW or some other game that's a cooperative PvE mmo, or play a single-player game. You'll have a lot more fun.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.