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[Corax] PG is too low - same for Talwar
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Master Sergeant MacRobert
Atash e Sarum Vanguard
Local Is Primary
#1 - 2013-04-11 01:35:18 UTC
[Corax]

This destroyer with max skills has 60 PG.

Fit
7x Light Launcher II's (6.3 x 7 = 44.1)
1x mwd (PG 15)

You have 59.1 PG used out of 60

You cannot therefore fit a dcu, dmg mod, point, web, ewar or any other PG 1 mods w/o taking up a rig slot to fit an ancillary current router or lose a low to a pg mod (yeah you can use implants).

I can understand a reason why the PG is low might be that you have to choose between rockets and a tank or choose Lights with range and no tank.... ...PG seems to be a bit too low still (putting it midly).

Maybe +3 to Base PG for both Corax and Talwar?

"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#2 - 2013-04-11 02:14:24 UTC
Oh **** fitting choices, I can't have it all on this ship (tank, range, damage) therefore it's horrible! I need a ship that can do ALL the things!
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2013-04-11 02:16:22 UTC
It has more to do with light launchers taking too much grid while still sucking. That's what needs fixing... not necessarily the grid usage, but definitely the sucking part.

For now, use rockets...
Anna Djan
Banana Corp
#4 - 2013-04-11 06:45:36 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
It has more to do with light launchers taking too much grid while still sucking. That's what needs fixing... not necessarily the grid usage, but definitely the sucking part.

For now, use rockets...


hmmmmm. Because firing 40k while getting 220 dps with substandard missile skills in a corax with light missies is "sucking"...

Sure...

Some people really need to learn how to fit ships.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#5 - 2013-04-11 08:00:33 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:
You cannot therefore fit a dcu, dmg mod, point, web, ewar or any other PG 1 mods w/o taking up a rig slot to fit an ancillary current router or lose a low to a pg mod (yeah you can use implants).

Even the much loved/hated Algos has to fit an ancillary rig if it wants to fit anything above electron blasters. Same goes for the Dragoon but with neuts and tank.

Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:
I can understand a reason why the PG is low might be that you have to choose between rockets and a tank or choose Lights with range and no tank.... ...PG seems to be a bit too low still (putting it midly).

EFT is your friend.

[Corax - a little bit of everything]

[Lows]
Damage Control II
Ballistic Control Unit II

[Mediums]
Medium F-S9 Shied Induction
Limited 1 MN Microwarpdrive I
Faint Warp Disruptor I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I

[Highs]
Rocket Launcher II (Inferno Javelin Rocket)
Rocket Launcher II (Inferno Javelin Rocket)
Rocket Launcher II (Inferno Javelin Rocket)
Rocket Launcher II (Inferno Javelin Rocket)
Rocket Launcher II (Inferno Javelin Rocket)
Rocket Launcher II (Inferno Javelin Rocket)
Rocket Launcher II (Inferno Javelin Rocket)

[Rigs]
Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Small Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Small Ancillary Current Router I


Stats (with all level 5 skills):
- around 8k ehp
- burns at around 1400 m/sec
- around 120 dps @ 20km
- capacitor lasts about 2.5 minutes with everything running

It's no Algos but it has a tank and can apply damage at range.

How did you Veterans start?
El Geo
Sons of Luminaire
The Birdhouse
#6 - 2013-04-11 08:09:50 UTC
ive messed around with the corax as I wanted a 10mn ab destroyer that wasn't the thrasher, turns out they can both fit them with the corax being able to field a td in the extra mid, the thrasher is a lot faster and as I had to use rockets the thrasher again gets better range, they both get roughly the same dps and ehp though so all in all, i'll fly the thrasher

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Master Sergeant MacRobert
Atash e Sarum Vanguard
Local Is Primary
#7 - 2013-04-11 12:23:38 UTC
Aglais wrote:
Oh **** fitting choices, I can't have it all on this ship (tank, range, damage) therefore it's horrible! I need a ship that can do ALL the things!


^^ Fails to read correctly and then flames.



I posted stating that you should have a viable choice of Rockets with Tank or Lights without a tank. You currently don't have this choice w/o having to fit Ancilliary Current Router or alternative PG enhancer.

If Light missile Launchers are considered "oversized" in the same way as Neutron Blasters and Tachyons then I'll shrug my shoulders and continue to not fly this underperforming ship.

The Algos can fit Ions fine, it is Neutrons it suffers with (matching the "oversized" philiosphy).

"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#8 - 2013-04-11 12:29:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Caitlyn Tufy
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:
I posted stating that you should have a viable choice of Rockets with Tank or Lights without a tank. You currently don't have this choice w/o having to fit Ancilliary Current Router or alternative PG enhancer.


Implying that the fitting module isn't a viable choice. Think again.
Master Sergeant MacRobert
Atash e Sarum Vanguard
Local Is Primary
#9 - 2013-04-11 12:30:30 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:
You cannot therefore fit a dcu, dmg mod, point, web, ewar or any other PG 1 mods w/o taking up a rig slot to fit an ancillary current router or lose a low to a pg mod (yeah you can use implants).

Even the much loved/hated Algos has to fit an ancillary rig if it wants to fit anything above electron blasters. Same goes for the Dragoon but with neuts and tank.

Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:
I can understand a reason why the PG is low might be that you have to choose between rockets and a tank or choose Lights with range and no tank.... ...PG seems to be a bit too low still (putting it midly).

EFT is your friend.

[Corax - a little bit of everything]

[Lows]
Damage Control II
Ballistic Control Unit II

[Mediums]
Medium F-S9 Shied Induction
Limited 1 MN Microwarpdrive I
Faint Warp Disruptor I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I

[Highs]
Rocket Launcher II (Inferno Javelin Rocket)
Rocket Launcher II (Inferno Javelin Rocket)
Rocket Launcher II (Inferno Javelin Rocket)
Rocket Launcher II (Inferno Javelin Rocket)
Rocket Launcher II (Inferno Javelin Rocket)
Rocket Launcher II (Inferno Javelin Rocket)
Rocket Launcher II (Inferno Javelin Rocket)

[Rigs]
Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Small Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Small Ancillary Current Router I


Stats (with all level 5 skills):
- around 8k ehp
- burns at around 1400 m/sec
- around 120 dps @ 20km
- capacitor lasts about 2.5 minutes with everything running

It's no Algos but it has a tank and can apply damage at range.




So you quote me, disagree and then make my point. I stated you have a choice of Rockets with Tank.

I also stated that you do not have a choice of Lights with an mwd (AB would be useless) and any other mods without compromising your own fit with a PG enhancing module or rig.

I am of the opinion you should be able to at least fit a point and a dcu w/o needing to add this.

Your ship fit underperforms other destroyers at similar range.

"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
Master Sergeant MacRobert
Atash e Sarum Vanguard
Local Is Primary
#10 - 2013-04-11 12:34:27 UTC
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:
[quote=Master Sergeant MacRobertI posted stating that you should have a viable choice of Rockets with Tank or Lights without a tank. You currently don't have this choice w/o having to fit Ancilliary Current Router or alternative PG enhancer.


Implying that the fitting module isn't a viable choice. Think again.[/quote]


I don't consider it a "choice". If you want 7 Light Launchers (why would you not?) then you have to take the PG enhancer.

"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
Ix Method
Doomheim
#11 - 2013-04-11 14:00:56 UTC
+1.

If a paperthin, light missile Corax is to be a viable 'choice' then I don't think it's asking too much to be able to fill in the rest of the slots by default.

Travelling at the speed of love.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#12 - 2013-04-11 20:12:41 UTC
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:
So you quote me, disagree and then make my point. I stated you have a choice of Rockets with Tank.

Sorry... my mistake. I only skimmed through your OP (which is frankly all over the place because the problems are more than just the Corax).

After doing some tinkering on EFT I found that there is more of an issue with Light Missile Launchers than with the Corax. They simply consume way too much CPU... which was the end problem I was having fitting a LML Corax.

Besides... the only reason you would ever choose light missiles over rockets is if you wanted to go for extreme range missile sniping... which is not even a "niche" thing.
Rockets pepper targets from afar while still remaining in point range. They also deal more damage than Lights.

Quote:
I also stated that you do not have a choice of Lights with an mwd (AB would be useless) and any other mods without compromising your own fit with a PG enhancing module or rig.

This is fairly normal for most ships and not something particular to the Corax. Most sniper ships can't fit a sturdy tank and deal damage at the same time (relative to short range fits anyways). Try fitting Artillery to most Minmatar ships... or beam weapons to Amarr... they all take a lot out of ships.

And for the record... PG and CPU mods/rigs are not hugely "compromising" the way you are making them out to be. It's good to avoid using them... but for some ships the the benefits of using them outweigh the loss of a mod/rig slot. Some even come with their own benefits (Power Diagnostics ftw!)

Quote:
Your ship fit underperforms other destroyers at similar range.

Granted... the Corax could use a bit of a buff... but not when it comes to PG or CPU (that can be solved by lower Light Missile Launcher CPU-PG)

Quote:
The Algos can fit Ions fine, it is Neutrons it suffers with (matching the "oversized" philiosphy).

No, it can't. Not with an EANM (or Drone Damage Amp), 400mm plate, MWD, and full tackle. And again, you have to downgrade to electrons if you don't want to fit an Ancillary rig... which cuts down range and DPS... and the Dragoon has it even worse (has to fit 2 ACR rigs).

How did you Veterans start?
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#13 - 2013-04-12 06:21:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Caitlyn Tufy
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:
I posted stating that you should have a viable choice of Rockets with Tank or Lights without a tank. You currently don't have this choice w/o having to fit Ancilliary Current Router or alternative PG enhancer.


Implying that the fitting module isn't a viable choice. Think again.



I don't consider it a "choice". If you want 7 Light Launchers (why would you not?) then you have to take the PG enhancer


[Corax, kiter]
[empty low slot]
[empty low slot]

Upgraded 1MN Microwarpdrive I
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]

Light Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Light Missile
Light Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Light Missile
Light Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Light Missile
Light Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Light Missile
Light Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Light Missile
Light Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Light Missile
Light Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Light Missile

[empty rig slot]
[empty rig slot]
[empty rig slot]

151/262.5 cpu, 59.1/60 pg. Fits. What you choose to add to the ship in addition to this is your problem.
Master Sergeant MacRobert
Atash e Sarum Vanguard
Local Is Primary
#14 - 2013-04-12 12:48:03 UTC
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:
I posted stating that you should have a viable choice of Rockets with Tank or Lights without a tank. You currently don't have this choice w/o having to fit Ancilliary Current Router or alternative PG enhancer.


Implying that the fitting module isn't a viable choice. Think again.



I don't consider it a "choice". If you want 7 Light Launchers (why would you not?) then you have to take the PG enhancer


[Corax, kiter]
[empty low slot]
[empty low slot]

Upgraded 1MN Microwarpdrive I
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]

Light Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Light Missile
Light Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Light Missile
Light Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Light Missile
Light Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Light Missile
Light Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Light Missile
Light Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Light Missile
Light Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Light Missile

[empty rig slot]
[empty rig slot]
[empty rig slot]

151/262.5 cpu, 59.1/60 pg. Fits. What you choose to add to the ship in addition to this is your problem.



Once again you post w/o adding anything to the thread. What is your argument / point and justification for said?

"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
Master Sergeant MacRobert
Atash e Sarum Vanguard
Local Is Primary
#15 - 2013-04-12 12:59:04 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:


Quote:
I also stated that you do not have a choice of Lights with an mwd (AB would be useless) and any other mods without compromising your own fit with a PG enhancing module or rig.

This is fairly normal for most ships and not something particular to the Corax. Most sniper ships can't fit a sturdy tank and deal damage at the same time (relative to short range fits anyways). Try fitting Artillery to most Minmatar ships... or beam weapons to Amarr... they all take a lot out of ships.

And for the record... PG and CPU mods/rigs are not hugely "compromising" the way you are making them out to be. It's good to avoid using them... but for some ships the the benefits of using them outweigh the loss of a mod/rig slot. Some even come with their own benefits (Power Diagnostics ftw!)

Quote:
Your ship fit underperforms other destroyers at similar range.

Granted... the Corax could use a bit of a buff... but not when it comes to PG or CPU (that can be solved by lower Light Missile Launcher CPU-PG)

Quote:
The Algos can fit Ions fine, it is Neutrons it suffers with (matching the "oversized" philiosphy).

No, it can't. Not with an EANM (or Drone Damage Amp), 400mm plate, MWD, and full tackle. And again, you have to downgrade to electrons if you don't want to fit an Ancillary rig... which cuts down range and DPS... and the Dragoon has it even worse (has to fit 2 ACR rigs).


Fitting a 400mm plate or a 200mm plate is a choice. It might not be optimal but, if you choose ions you can choose a lighter tank and you can choose neutrons to drop the tank. Corax does not have this choice with LML.

I agree with your post that maybe the Corax needs a different buff and additionally LML fitting requirements may need tweaking instead.

Let me make it clear I do not think an LML Corax should be able to fit a tank w/o boosting CPU/PG.

However, I do think it should be able to fit one or two of : a point (if wanted), sensor booster II, dcu II, bcu II if the pilot should choose to w/o needing to fit a pds, acr rig or use implants.

Fitting PG or CPU mods/rigs is a compromise - just not a huge one. However, it has a larger impact on smaller ships, where the fine line to winning a 1vs1 is very slim.

Way I see atm the Corax (and probably the Talwar) cannot do their jobs in solo / very small gang warfare. Particularly not in the FW zone operating around plex's. There are too many other superior choices.

Therefore, I think a fix to either the fittings on Corax / Talwar or to LML fitting requirements should be looked at.

"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"