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EVE's ever growing ISK inflation cost rates.

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Frying Doom
#121 - 2013-04-16 03:50:31 UTC
Igor Slovensky wrote:
ISD Gallifreyan wrote:
CCP talked last year about being concerned with inflation, however.

Tons of new isk is being generatrd through NPC bounties and mission rewards.
There are not enough isk sinks in the game to combat this.

When your ship explodes, the only isk to leave the game is the isk paid for the manufacturing slot (which is negligible)

Isk sinks currently include War dec costs, expired insurace fees, broker fees, market taxes (not corp tax), office rental, ship repair, locator agents. Etc.

The only way to combat inflation in eve is to increase these sinks or come up with new ones.



2 phrases:

1.) Sandbox
2.) Player driven (controlled)

CCP should not feel the need to do anything but stay out of the way and let the players handle ( or not ) inflation. To do otherwise is to violate the principle of the sandbox and a player controlled economy.

Creating artificial isk sinks is both unnecessary and a violation of the sandbox promise by CCP, by creating isk sinks and the like CCP is deliberately attempting to control what is supposed to be a player driven marketplace.

Just my opinion feel free to have your own. Smile

That makes as much sense as saying that CCP should remove isk faucets because this is a sandbox and otherwise CCP will be controlling the amount of isk entering the market.

when isk sinks are equal to isk faucets then I will agree with you, at that point CCP should leave the economy alone.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Psychotic Monk
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#122 - 2013-04-16 03:52:52 UTC
CCP should stop making or modifying content. And make all ships have infinite fitting.

Sandbox.

Belligerent Undesirables Selling Griefer Immunity
Mu-Shi Ai
Hosono House
#123 - 2013-04-16 04:13:17 UTC
Ken 1138 wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:
Three words:

Player Driven Economy.



Yes but try buying a 150-300 mil ship unfitted no less, when you're a new player who doesn't know how to make any ISK. I've explained this to new players I've met and was almost apologetic about the high costs. I think alot of T1 ships have very expensive to very ridiculous costs.


If you're so new that you don't know how to make ISK, why would you be trying to fly around in a 150-300m ISK ship? Chances are if you're that new you can't fly it competently, skill-wise, anyway.
Dave Stark
#124 - 2013-04-16 07:10:47 UTC
Psychotic Monk wrote:
CCP should stop making or modifying content. And make all ships have infinite fitting.

Sandbox.


100mn mwd destroyers would be fun. especially ones with the mwd sig bonus.
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#125 - 2013-04-16 07:41:23 UTC
Felicity Love wrote:

... waits for the self-entitled "Y Gen" brats of EVE to get off their CQ couches and make some effort. Just a bit... a smidge... crack a sweat, even.



I'd love to... but with the door not being in a position to open and all that....

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#126 - 2013-04-16 07:50:15 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:

The biggest problem with inflation is actually to do with money you previously made.

Say you earned a million isk, for which you can buy for example an iteron III (Honestly I don't know the price atm) now if you do not continue to earn more isk, via whatever, in 12 months time you will not be able to buy that ship.

Inflation decreases the value of money previously earned, unless it is rolled into a commodity that is subsequently effected by inflation.
I agree with your assessment, but... why is this bad?

Inflation in the real world means that it is generally unwise to just sit on cash... you need to invest it in something, so it will retain it's relative value. In Eve it is harder, but...
Frying Doom
#127 - 2013-04-16 08:17:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

The biggest problem with inflation is actually to do with money you previously made.

Say you earned a million isk, for which you can buy for example an iteron III (Honestly I don't know the price atm) now if you do not continue to earn more isk, via whatever, in 12 months time you will not be able to buy that ship.

Inflation decreases the value of money previously earned, unless it is rolled into a commodity that is subsequently effected by inflation.
I agree with your assessment, but... why is this bad?

Inflation in the real world means that it is generally unwise to just sit on cash... you need to invest it in something, so it will retain it's relative value. In Eve it is harder, but...



The old why is inflation bad question.

Well 1%-3% inflation is generally seen as a good thing as it means the market is growing, but in an economy with fixed wages such as ratting or mission running, it will mean that over time these things will be worth less per hour compared to commodities.

For example with a 1% inflation rate this means that a person earning 15 million isk per hour will in a years time effectively be earning, 14,850,000 isk for the same task next year. That is not to bad it means that with their fixed income they are losing 150,000 isk per hour, not great but not devastating.

Now assume we have a 10% inflation rate that same person will be losing the buying power of 1.5 million an hour, the following year.

Now being this is a game and people do have RL responsibilities, say for example you have to go out into the country for work for 12 months, with a 1% inflation rate on say 10 billion, you are losing a mere 100 million, but with a 10% inflation rate that year of work will cost you a billion in spending power.

Even investing in this game can be a bad thing over time, as you may put your isk into an artificially raised commodity or for that matter a commodity that CCP decide to change (like tech for example) and you come back and you lost a fortune. Yes that is part of the pvp aspect of the game which is why a small loss sitting on isk is better than speculation for people with RL difficulties

Then we have manufacturing, a high level of inflation, 10+ percent could lay havoc to those that manufacture larger ships ect. With build times so long, the inflation actually cuts into their profits by making the money they receive for the good actually worth less by the time they are finished.

1-3% inflation is the Goldilocks zone for inflation, but CCP are trying even harder to keep it within +/- 1%

Plus of course consumer confidence in an economy is also a vital factor to its continuing survival.

Now in all honesty I would like to see an eve depression, but that is just because it would be an interesting thing to study.

I hope that explained it for you.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#128 - 2013-04-16 08:29:19 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:

The old why is inflation bad question.

Well 1%-3% inflation is generally seen as a good thing as it means the market is growing, but in an economy with fixed wages such as ratting or mission running, it will mean that over time these things will be worth less per hour compared to commodities.

For example with a 1% inflation rate this means that a person earning 15 million isk per hour will in a years time effectively be earning, 14,850,000 isk for the same task next year. That is not to bad it means that with their fixed income they are losing 150,000 isk per hour, not great but not devastating.

Now assume we have a 10% inflation rate that same person will be losing the buying power of 1.5 million an hour, the following year.

Now being this is a game...
Since miners don't actually get paid in ISK, but in inflation adjusted products... do you consider inflation to affect their earnings per hour? Is this just directly related to those that are get a fixed 'ISK' income: mission runners, ratters, etc?
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#129 - 2013-04-16 08:37:08 UTC
ISD Gallifreyan wrote:
...The only way to combat inflation in eve is to increase these sinks or come up with new ones.
The only way? Wouldn't reducing the material requirement for modules and ships by 50% cause those prices to fail over time?

Are you not really talking about currency depreciation?
Frying Doom
#130 - 2013-04-16 08:39:28 UTC
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

The old why is inflation bad question.

Well 1%-3% inflation is generally seen as a good thing as it means the market is growing, but in an economy with fixed wages such as ratting or mission running, it will mean that over time these things will be worth less per hour compared to commodities.

For example with a 1% inflation rate this means that a person earning 15 million isk per hour will in a years time effectively be earning, 14,850,000 isk for the same task next year. That is not to bad it means that with their fixed income they are losing 150,000 isk per hour, not great but not devastating.

Now assume we have a 10% inflation rate that same person will be losing the buying power of 1.5 million an hour, the following year.

Now being this is a game...
Since miners don't actually get paid in ISK, but in inflation adjusted products... do you consider inflation to affect their earnings per hour? Is this just directly related to those that are get a fixed 'ISK' income: mission runners, ratters, etc?



It effects their past earnings, in the respect of any cash that they have on hand, but as to the fact that minerals are supply/demand curve, inflation effects the miners very little except in the case of mineral hoarders which are in effect profiting from inflation.

There also will be the effect of the influence of the buying power of those with fixed incomes, people who mission run then pvp for example would be able to have less buying power over time so demand for minerals would be slightly lowered.

But miners as they are only supply and demand would only be slightly directly effected by inflation.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Frying Doom
#131 - 2013-04-16 08:45:17 UTC
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
ISD Gallifreyan wrote:
...The only way to combat inflation in eve is to increase these sinks or come up with new ones.
The only way? Wouldn't reducing the material requirement for modules and ships by 50% cause those prices to fail over time?

Are you not really talking about currency depreciation?

The first you are talking about production cost savings, that would not effect inflation

Currency depreciation is a currencies value in comparison to another currency, for example the USD depreciated compared to the AUD over the last few years. It is now worth less than it used to be.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#132 - 2013-04-16 08:50:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Bi-Mi Lansatha
Frying Doom wrote:

But miners as they are only supply and demand would only be slightly directly effected by inflation.
Doesn't this also apply to some others? Pirates/Gankers are rewarded not in ISK, but in 'goods'. Those that 'Mine Moons' or have Planetary Interaction are also... in essence... part of a 'Barter Economy'. My 5760 units of Precious Metals a day that I get 'paid' remain the same regardless of inflation. I would expect that in a cycle of currency depreciation, I would get more ISK as the currency loses value.

Adding ISK to the system should decrease its value, but for a number of players who get paid in goods... is this really inflationary to them? Are miners and such actually having to work longer hours to acquire the same goods... due to currency depreciation?
knobber Jobbler
State War Academy
Caldari State
#133 - 2013-04-16 08:56:41 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:
Three words:

Player Driven Economy.

ccp altered over several patches how minerals were acquired. Mission salvage and drone poop were both altered forcing a reduction in supply. Ccp did what they could to create more isk sinks.
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#134 - 2013-04-16 09:01:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Bi-Mi Lansatha
Frying Doom wrote:

Currency depreciation is a currencies value in comparison to another currency, for example the USD depreciated compared to the AUD over the last few years. It is now worth less than it used to be.
Are we not comparing the value of ISK paid for some jobs with the value of an alternate currency paid for other jobs.
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#135 - 2013-04-16 09:05:43 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:

The first you are talking about production cost savings, that would not effect inflation
"The rate at which the general level of prices for goods and services is rising, and, subsequently, purchasing power is falling."

Cutting the requirements should lead to a massive decrease in inflation.. prices would go down. One time. If they wanted to stretch it out they could reduce requirements annually... 5%. An ISK in this year would actually be worth more next year... I could buy more.
Frying Doom
#136 - 2013-04-16 09:07:19 UTC
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
[quote=Bi-Mi Lansatha][quote=Frying Doom]
But miners as they are only supply and demand would only be slightly directly effected by inflation.
Doesn't this also apply to some others? Pirates/Gankers are rewarded not in ISK, but in 'goods'. Those that 'Mine Moons' or have Planetary Interaction are also... in essence... part of a 'Barter Economy'. My 5760 units of Precious Metals a day that I get 'paid' remain the same regardless of inflation. I would expect that in a cycle of currency depreciation, I would get more ISK as the currency loses value.

Adding ISK to the system should decrease its value, but for a number of players who get paid in goods... is this really inflationary to them? Are miners and such actually having to work longer hours to acquire the same goods... due to currency depreciation?

Pirates and gankers also get paid in isk from bounties that depreciate, but given to goods they are paid in inflation will have little effect on them so long as they do not convert the item into isk, as as soon as soon as they do that isk is effected by inflation, the total amount it is effected is governed by the inflation rate and the time it remains isk.

Lets go to the extreme, hyper inflation, this is where inflation is really bad but it illustrates over a short period the effect of high inflation over a long term

for example hyper inflation in Germany in 1923 so so bad that if you got paid in the evening, if you waited till morning to do your shopping, the money was not enough to buy a loaf of bread.

Goods you produce on the day you produce them are not effected by inflation and with inflation, if you hold the goods the buying power does not change, the change is when you sell the goods and the currency is effected by inflation.

This is due to the fact that currency is an idea, it is not backed by anything at all. It is just 1s and 0s floating around.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Frying Doom
#137 - 2013-04-16 09:16:36 UTC
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

The first you are talking about production cost savings, that would not effect inflation
"The rate at which the general level of prices for goods and services is rising, and, subsequently, purchasing power is falling."

Cutting the requirements should lead to a massive decrease in inflation.. prices would go down. One time. If they wanted to stretch it out they could reduce requirements annually... 5%. An ISK in this year would actually be worth more next year... I could buy more.

Ok lets say you cut the mineral requirements of everything by 50%, so all of the minerals demand is reduced by 50%. So suddenly we have a massive oversupply of minerals.

So miners realizing that they are earning less than people in a sweat shop once again change professions and the mineral prices once again rise and stabilize.

Now those miners feeling they have bugger all else to do, go into mission running for their income, it is a better isk/hr.

Now the amount of isk entering the economy has suddenly grow 50%(for example) so now we have some 35 Trillion extra isk per month into the economy, people are more flush with cash so they are happy to pay more for their goods and inflation rises, actually at a higher rate due to the extra available currency.

So in the end reducing mineral requirements will actually increase inflation as people will move away from mining, and cause more isk to enter the system.

If you did it in 5% increments you would just increase inflation at a slower rate.

Inflation is governed by the availability of money within an economy and the only way to slow it sufficiently within the EvE economy is to remove almost as much isk as you are putting in there are no other ways.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#138 - 2013-04-16 09:24:02 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
...for example hyper inflation in Germany in 1923 so so bad that if you got paid in the evening, if you waited till morning to do your shopping, the money was not enough to buy a loaf of bread.

Goods you produce on the day you produce them are not effected by inflation and with inflation, if you hold the goods the buying power does not change, the change is when you sell the goods and the currency is effected by inflation.

This is due to the fact that currency is an idea, it is not backed by anything at all. It is just 1s and 0s floating around.
I am in German, so good example. A very bad time for those who were paid in German 'Marks' for their labor, but here in Bavaria... lots of people weren't working for 'Marks', but instead for farm goods/products. Their true value was little changed. An apple was still an apple. Germans who had real valued goods could and did barter and trade for what they needed.

Hyper-inflation in EvE might break those who are paid in the fiat currency ISK for their labor, but those paid in real products/hard currency will notice much less effect. In Eve the effect will be 'Good Money' chasing out the bad: people will switch to doing things that pay well.
Frying Doom
#139 - 2013-04-16 09:25:03 UTC
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

Currency depreciation is a currencies value in comparison to another currency, for example the USD depreciated compared to the AUD over the last few years. It is now worth less than it used to be.
Are we not comparing the value of ISK paid for some jobs with the value of an alternate currency paid for other jobs.

No we are comparing isk/hr between different jobs, not different currencies.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Frying Doom
#140 - 2013-04-16 09:26:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
...for example hyper inflation in Germany in 1923 so so bad that if you got paid in the evening, if you waited till morning to do your shopping, the money was not enough to buy a loaf of bread.

Goods you produce on the day you produce them are not effected by inflation and with inflation, if you hold the goods the buying power does not change, the change is when you sell the goods and the currency is effected by inflation.

This is due to the fact that currency is an idea, it is not backed by anything at all. It is just 1s and 0s floating around.
I am in German, so good example. A very bad time for those who were paid in German 'Marks' for their labor, but here in Bavaria... lots of people weren't working for 'Marks', but instead for farm goods/products. Their true value was little changed. An apple was still an apple. Germans who had real valued goods could and did barter and trade for what they needed.

Hyper-inflation in EvE might break those who are paid in the fiat currency ISK for their labor, but those paid in real products/hard currency will notice much less effect. In Eve the effect will be 'Good Money' chasing out the bad: people will switch to doing things that pay well.


yes assuming the contract system felt like working that day.
Barter is always a way around inflation, well the monetary kind. As it is possible to inflate the barter cost of an apple by creating a shortage or making them a treasured item, such as the tulip bulb bubble.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!