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[Discussion] - New SOV SYSTEM

Author
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2013-04-24 21:00:02 UTC
Rudina wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Cloaky camping shouldn't prevent you from doing anything... although many nullbears are too risk-adverse to actually operate while under a threat, because it "makes their isk/hr ratio not worth it".


You confuse cloaky camping with AFK cloaking, but please go mine or rat while I'm cloaked in system in a cyno hic.

E: or bomber for that matter since BLOPs are good now :sun:


Well, at last with this system you would have more fun hot-droping agains the defenders if they try to run any site.
As you have more willpower to take the system then the defenders to defend it wou will get rid of them.
But they could also repair the POS while you are cloaked, and prepare for your next attack,with a SB win near the POS ready to welcome the attackers again.

This will be a fair fight even against goons. at last winning or losing will be a good fight.... Now the big blocks can just crush you in no time with no chance to fight back.
Rudina
xDECOYx
Fraternity.
#42 - 2013-04-24 21:07:04 UTC
Alx Warlord wrote:
Rudina wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Cloaky camping shouldn't prevent you from doing anything... although many nullbears are too risk-adverse to actually operate while under a threat, because it "makes their isk/hr ratio not worth it".


You confuse cloaky camping with AFK cloaking, but please go mine or rat while I'm cloaked in system in a cyno hic.

E: or bomber for that matter since BLOPs are good now :sun:


Well, at last with this system you would have more fun hot-droping agains the defenders if they try to run any site.
As you have more willpower to take the system then the defenders to defend it wou will get rid of them.
But they could also repair the POS while you are cloaked, and prepare for your next attack,with a SB win near the POS ready to welcome the attackers again.

This will be a fair fight even against goons. at last winning or losing will be a good fight.... Now the big blocks can just crush you in no time with no chance to fight back.


How will the fight be any different than it would be now?
Rudina
xDECOYx
Fraternity.
#43 - 2013-04-24 21:10:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Rudina
There are 2 reasons why there aren't many 'plucky independants' in 0.0 anymore:

1 There are more people in 0.0 meaning larger alliames need more space (1 system supports a maximum of ~10 people ratting at any one time)

2 Renting is far more prevolant now so the bad space where the independants used to live is now a cash cow for the large alliances (see drone regions).
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2013-04-24 21:14:45 UTC
Rudina wrote:
Alx Warlord wrote:

There are more ways to limit this... lets say that you uses some statistics to measure the market activity along the time, and with the active number of traders... if you have 2 chars trading billions of isk worth it is still 2 different chars marketing along 1 hour. now if 100 players do market activity at last once every hour during 5 hours/ day then you got something consistent. it would be to damn boring and expensive to exploit this... and would also be illegal, like botting atc...


Now you're falling into the 'if we did x and banned y' trap to force your idea to work instead of looking for better alternatives.


If you revamp something or create something new, many problems will appear, they all have solutions. I'm just saying that the points that you guys are pointing are small stuff, mostly solved by a good developer...

We had this when ccp introduced the factional warfare. This is something that is working but needed allot of iterations.

I'm Opened to better alternatives, do you know a better way to give a chance to introduce small independent alliances into the 0.0 game play that have no drawback? Is there any point that you think that would make this idea better? Or you like the situation the way it is now? "F*** the small alliances?"

Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2013-04-24 21:19:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Alx Warlord
Rudina wrote:
Alx Warlord wrote:
Rudina wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Cloaky camping shouldn't prevent you from doing anything... although many nullbears are too risk-adverse to actually operate while under a threat, because it "makes their isk/hr ratio not worth it".


You confuse cloaky camping with AFK cloaking, but please go mine or rat while I'm cloaked in system in a cyno hic.

E: or bomber for that matter since BLOPs are good now :sun:


Well, at last with this system you would have more fun hot-droping agains the defenders if they try to run any site.
As you have more willpower to take the system then the defenders to defend it wou will get rid of them.
But they could also repair the POS while you are cloaked, and prepare for your next attack,with a SB win near the POS ready to welcome the attackers again.

This will be a fair fight even against goons. at last winning or losing will be a good fight.... Now the big blocks can just crush you in no time with no chance to fight back.


How will the fight be any different than it would be now?


The fight? It will be in front of a revamped POS, with guns, and RR and etc... and people would have more reasons to fight then before.
The bigger difference might be the outcome of the fight. If the defender run out of strengths after the attack, he may run to fight other day, instead of losing all assets in one sweep. leaving 0.0 forever...
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2013-04-24 21:36:15 UTC
Alx Warlord wrote:

I'm Opened to better alternatives, do you know a better way to give a chance to introduce small independent alliances into the 0.0 game play that have no drawback? Is there any point that you think that would make this idea better? Or you like the situation the way it is now? "F*** the small alliances?"




What do you mean by "small alliances"?

Give us some ideas on number of players, number of characters. the kind of assets they have, specif or just in raw isk.


I say this because "small and independent" is often followed by "crushed by larger more coordinated rival". You don't see much of this in the really world, and for good reason. Even tiny countries are often "blue" to the powers that surround them, And even if the neighbors of those countries decided to be neutral to the small countries, not hostile but no longer providing them services and support, virtually all of them would wither up and die.


Think about it. Suppose you and your small alliance take a couple nullsec systems. Then what? You can't travel through neighboring systems, because you are fair game to shoot. People will be moving through your system look for fights and ganks. You will have to jump pretty much everything in and out. Even if your sov holding neighbors ignore you, this game is full of nomadic corps who love nothing more then to make your space unusable to your members.

How long until you have team up with other nearby "small independent alliances" to fend off rivals and trouble makers, and in the process become what so many people complain about? Just another cog in a big blue blob.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#47 - 2013-04-24 21:45:19 UTC

I'd like you to take a step back and remove yourself from your specific ideas on how to fix sov for a moment, and focus on the grand scheme of things:

The current problems of Sov:

-- Agony, a small alliance (with << 100 active members), once took some Tech moons from the Norther Coalition. We did this by being tenacious! We RF'd the POS... watched them defend their tower from our 30 man fleet with a 400+ man fleet. No fights were had, because we knew better. We RF'd it again, and again, and again... each time ignoring their response fleet, until they didn't bring one. At that point, we claimed the tower, ran it for 2 weeks, made some isk, and then they took it back.

-- If Agony wanted to take a system from the Goons, we'd need to employ a similar tactic. However, it's simply not pragmatic with the current Sov Mechanics. We put up a SBU, RF their IHUB, and when they respond they only need destroy the SBU to reset the process. The HP of the IHUB is so large, that it takes hours for us to RF their IHUB. Taking a system requires four cycles of shooting the IHUB, and additional cycles if there is a station in system. In short, the current sov mechanics make it impractical for a small alliance to take space from a large coalition, and this is the major problem with Sov.

CFC, HBC, N3, Solar, whatever... let them hold as much space as they want!!! They conquered it, and the only way they should lose it is if someone takes it from them! It's that latter part that matters most, someone should be able to take it from them! Losing sov and claiming sov should generally be about conflict, not farming space/NPCs. Now, the question is, how do you rebalance the sov system appropriately?

What I suggest:
I generally agree the "strength of your Sov Claim" should be balanced around usage: If you are using the space, it's hard to take. If you aren't using the space, it's easy to take.

--- The easiest method I thought to implement this, was to take the System Indexes we currently have, and combine them into a Sov index. Then base the number of RF timers a system gets on the new Sov Index... Below level 1, no RF timers, making the system very easy to take. At level 1, one RF cycle before you TCU falls, etc... all the way to level 5 or so (meaning the defenders have a ton of opportunities to defend the system). To prevent crazy system flipping, there probably needs some type of buffer added to the Sov Index. Like maybe the Sov Index starts at level 1.

Next, I would suggest some small-scale objectives that make conquering and taking sov not simply a matter of CTAs. These objectives shouldn't stop/prevent the sov take over, but instead alter the process by making it less CTA-ish. Imagine if you could shift an RF exit timer +/- an hour every time you complete a regularly but randomly respawning plex in system (think FW plex without NPC bullshit). Suddenly a system becomes vulnerable to attack 6 hours earlier or later than originally planned, and this will result in more impromptu fleets trying to ninja the system. Frankly, it's these impromptu fleets that provide quite inspiring escalations, and replace some of the simple "fleet numbers game" with more wildcards.

Finally, remove all RF timers from stations, and have station ownership slowly transfer to the new system owners. I.E., require the Sov holders to maintain sov for at least a week or so before they can lock an opponent out of a station. Why? To give the previous owners a chance to reclaim a system...

With these three implementations, a large alliance can still claim all the Sov they desire, yet a small alliance has the chance to actually reclaim any systems they aren't utilizing. If they are vulnerable, they will be attacked!
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#48 - 2013-04-24 21:57:50 UTC
Alx Warlord wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Alx Warlord wrote:

No. As long as you have enough Sov to keep the Cyno Jammer upgrade active. But if you fail to keep this upgrade active you will probably be kicked from thesystem....



Oh, alright then.

Suddenly, 250 maelstroms come in and kill your jammer, THEN 50 titans come in and destroy everything you own. My bad. Roll


Correcting, Suddenly 250 maelstroms comes and attacks the main POS trying to reinforce it.... and there is a chance for the people there to fight back. ( or at last bomb some...)


So the cyno jammer becomes an invulnerable always on module the instant you take sov from someone, and lasts until you lose it?

Oh my, instead of grinding through six timers with caps, with the attackers having to win every fight and the defenders having to win just one to put them back to square one, we get to grind POS in subcaps. How absolutley thrilling. That's only marginally more boring than having to rat to take a system.

Also, unless you're very, very good and have about five waves of bombers, you won't be able to do more than harass a full fleet, and you'll probably lose a lot of bombers if they have appropriate support.
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2013-04-24 22:37:53 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Alx Warlord wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Alx Warlord wrote:

No. As long as you have enough Sov to keep the Cyno Jammer upgrade active. But if you fail to keep this upgrade active you will probably be kicked from thesystem....



Oh, alright then.

Suddenly, 250 maelstroms come in and kill your jammer, THEN 50 titans come in and destroy everything you own. My bad. Roll


Correcting, Suddenly 250 maelstroms comes and attacks the main POS trying to reinforce it.... and there is a chance for the people there to fight back. ( or at last bomb some...)


So the cyno jammer becomes an invulnerable always on module the instant you take sov from someone, and lasts until you lose it?

Oh my, instead of grinding through six timers with caps, with the attackers having to win every fight and the defenders having to win just one to put them back to square one, we get to grind POS in subcaps. How absolutley thrilling. That's only marginally more boring than having to rat to take a system.

Also, unless you're very, very good and have about five waves of bombers, you won't be able to do more than harass a full fleet, and you'll probably lose a lot of bombers if they have appropriate support.


Come on! Did you ready the fist topic?

Quote:
The level of the SOV will determinate the availability of some system upgrades, like allowing to use cyno jamer. and other stuffs that i will mention below.
"

If you start to grinding the system, in some level the Cyno jammer will stop working... as other upgrades....
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#50 - 2013-04-24 22:44:05 UTC
Alx Warlord wrote:


Come on! Did you ready the fist topic?

Quote:
The level of the SOV will determinate the availability of some system upgrades, like allowing to use cyno jamer. and other stuffs that i will mention below.
"

If you start to grinding the system, in some level the Cyno jammer will stop working... as other upgrades....



But you just said that dropping caps into the system literally right after the sov is flipped wouldn't be possible because of the jammer. if you took a system from the CFC, HBC, N3 or even the proviblock guys through these methods, you'd have caps on you within a couple of hours.

And honestly, if ratting is the only way to take down the cynojammer or to actually do anything in nullsec, then you're doing little more than encouraging botting.
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2013-04-24 22:57:45 UTC
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Alx Warlord wrote:

I'm Opened to better alternatives, do you know a better way to give a chance to introduce small independent alliances into the 0.0 game play that have no drawback? Is there any point that you think that would make this idea better? Or you like the situation the way it is now? "F*** the small alliances?"




What do you mean by "small alliances"?

Give us some ideas on number of players, number of characters. the kind of assets they have, specif or just in raw isk.


I say this because "small and independent" is often followed by "crushed by larger more coordinated rival". You don't see much of this in the really world, and for good reason. Even tiny countries are often "blue" to the powers that surround them, And even if the neighbors of those countries decided to be neutral to the small countries, not hostile but no longer providing them services and support, virtually all of them would wither up and die.


Think about it. Suppose you and your small alliance take a couple nullsec systems. Then what? You can't travel through neighboring systems, because you are fair game to shoot. People will be moving through your system look for fights and ganks. You will have to jump pretty much everything in and out. Even if your sov holding neighbors ignore you, this game is full of nomadic corps who love nothing more then to make your space unusable to your members.

How long until you have team up with other nearby "small independent alliances" to fend off rivals and trouble makers, and in the process become what so many people complain about? Just another cog in a big blue blob.


I lived like this for about 1 year. we were like 50~100 chars in 2 systems. we had a small capital fleet.
Just a Few messed with us during this time, because the system had almost no value, and noone would risk attacking us because it was always a ugly fight...ex: once we lowered our defenses to get attacked -AAA- they baited... we called pandemic legion as (one time) friends and we managed to kill 3 -AAA- super-carriers and some other capital ships......

But yes... it was hard to travel. we had to camp our gate most of the time, we had serious issues with cloakers, and all other small aliances issues...

We tried to call more people and corps to join our alliance, but in most cases we razed other small alliances around us, so they left they space, and other alliances took their place....

We ended up leaving 0.0 becouse the SOV price was something that was making the alliance suffer. and The blobs was making things really boring around.... most of us ended up in Deep WH-Space... or inside C3 WHs with a neverleaving capital fleet.
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2013-04-24 23:06:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Alx Warlord
Danika Princip wrote:
Alx Warlord wrote:


Come on! Did you ready the fist topic?

Quote:
The level of the SOV will determinate the availability of some system upgrades, like allowing to use cyno jamer. and other stuffs that i will mention below.
"

If you start to grinding the system, in some level the Cyno jammer will stop working... as other upgrades....



But you just said that dropping caps into the system literally right after the sov is flipped wouldn't be possible because of the jammer. if you took a system from the CFC, HBC, N3 or even the proviblock guys through these methods, you'd have caps on you within a couple of hours.

And honestly, if ratting is the only way to take down the cynojammer or to actually do anything in nullsec, then you're doing little more than encouraging botting.


Did I? well, if you had no time to build up sov you have no time to deffend against a huge incoming fleet....

Rating don't bring down the cynojammer, as many things in the list it brings SOV UP. That keeps the Cyno jammer up... If you go to your enemy system and RAT there... you give him more sov.

If someone gets to an empty system and try to capture it... The sov will slowly grow with their effort.... up to a point that they get the bonuses.... If they are attacked before that... they will probably run away..

Obs: CCP is hitting verry hard on botting... so I don't worry about it... Some people like to make isk... some like to pay PLEX...
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2013-05-07 13:25:29 UTC
Added a little content:

3 - Revamp BPO and BPC security

One of the main reasons why the industry don't dig as they should in 0.0 is the fact that is really vulnerable. Too expensive and almost defenseless. So defenselessness that if the BPO and BPC system would be used in our society today, we would return to the middle age in a generation...

so there is a proposal on how to make it workable: SUGESTION HERE
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2013-06-06 03:31:34 UTC
After odyssey we got some changes in the distribution of the technetium value, the Ice value... and we got some changes in the POS... but still a long way to go....
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2013-07-16 19:35:41 UTC
hope that the next expansion will fix this... siting and waiting...
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