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[Discussion] - New SOV SYSTEM

Author
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2013-04-24 19:15:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Alx Warlord
Xavier Thorm wrote:
Rudina wrote:
Your initial assumption that sov is much easier to capture than defend is also flawed, the attackers have to win SIX fights on timers dedicated by the defender while having there SBUs (and entire progress) venerable at any time. The defenders only have to win one of these fights and the attackers are back to square one. If you can't beat them on the field one out of six times why shouldn't the be able to take sov from you?


Seriously this. Please OP, do not propose overhauls to areas of the game which you do not understand.


It is not my initial assumption, CCP always tried to give the defender bonuses....The problem is not capturing or losing. The problem is keeping.

As Your both alliances, TEST and GOONS Are huge Sov Holders, You would lose most of your unused spaces. Because you guys probably will not be able to hold all that you have in hands. although you will get new neighbors to fight against what will make more interesting your game-play, instead of needing to go to Hi-sec to shoot fishes in the bucket...

Also, you are probably in denial of the actual SOV system situation and how bad it looks from outside your alliances. For the new players and for the new Dust514 players.
Rudina
xDECOYx
Fraternity.
#22 - 2013-04-24 19:19:46 UTC
Alx Warlord wrote:

That is why in the Idea it says that there are multiple approaches to keep SOV up. Every one should be able to do what they want to keep the SOV UP. You can kill people that enters your system. this would add points to your sov. There are people that like to mine, to shoot red crosses, to build stuff, to trade in the market etc...

Maybe there should be a part of the SOV points that are related to Alliance kills not only in system kills...


As I said all these methods except pve/mining are thoroughly exploitable

Number of kills:
Fill carrier sma with shuttles, jetison, smartbomb, sov 5.

Value of kills:
Manipulate market for ****** officer item, put in rookie ship, kill rookie ship, sov 5.

Market:
Create 100 billion isk sell order for one trit with alliance wallet, buy with alliance wallet, sov 5.

Building stuff (Horribly unprofitably since you want rid of stations):
Buy a few bills worth of minerals and ship out, buy shuttle bpos, fill slots, sov 5.
Rudina
xDECOYx
Fraternity.
#23 - 2013-04-24 19:29:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Rudina
Alx Warlord wrote:
Xavier Thorm wrote:
Rudina wrote:
Your initial assumption that sov is much easier to capture than defend is also flawed, the attackers have to win SIX fights on timers dedicated by the defender while having there SBUs (and entire progress) venerable at any time. The defenders only have to win one of these fights and the attackers are back to square one. If you can't beat them on the field one out of six times why shouldn't the be able to take sov from you?


Seriously this. Please OP, do not propose overhauls to areas of the game which you do not understand.


The problem is not capturing or losing. The problem is keeping. As Your both alliances, TEST and GOONS Are huge Sov Holders, You would lose most of your unused spaces. Because you guys probably will not be able to hold all that you have in hands. although you will get new neighbors to fight against what will make more interesting your game-play.

Also, you are probably in denial of the actual SOV system situation and how bad it looks from outside your alliances. For the new players and for the new Dust514 players.


Wee use pretty much all our sov for one thing or another as hard as it may be for you to believe.

Even if we did drop the sov do you realy think we would let some random alliance take it? There were swathes of unclaimed systems in the drone regions before solar died yet still no one claimed them. This is because if anyone tried they would be shat on mercillesly. You realy think a system is free to be captured just because theres no name at the top? You realy think we would leave you in peace to rat up your sov?

We don't care how it looks, we care how it is since, you know,we actually live there.
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2013-04-24 19:51:33 UTC
Rudina wrote:
Alx Warlord wrote:

That is why in the Idea it says that there are multiple approaches to keep SOV up. Every one should be able to do what they want to keep the SOV UP. You can kill people that enters your system. this would add points to your sov. There are people that like to mine, to shoot red crosses, to build stuff, to trade in the market etc...

Maybe there should be a part of the SOV points that are related to Alliance kills not only in system kills...


As I said all these methods except pve/mining are thoroughly exploitable

Number of kills:
Fill carrier sma with shuttles, jetison, smartbomb, sov 5.

Value of kills:
Manipulate market for ****** officer item, put in rookie ship, kill rookie ship, sov 5.

Market:
Create 100 billion isk sell order for one trit with alliance wallet, buy with alliance wallet, sov 5.

Building stuff (Horribly unprofitably since you want rid of stations):
Buy a few bills worth of minerals and ship out, buy shuttle bpos, fill slots, sov 5.


Come on! This is not so hard to understand. CCP did something similar to Faction warfare and worked pretty well. There was market manipulation also, but this was already solved.

About the market same thing...

about building stuff, same thing, you just need to chose the right maker. like mineral vallue. and the amount of points that this will return. If you have a System only to build Shuttles it is OK, but don't think that this creates any kind of "perpetual motion".
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#25 - 2013-04-24 19:53:56 UTC
Alx Warlord wrote:

No. As long as you have enough Sov to keep the Cyno Jammer upgrade active. But if you fail to keep this upgrade active you will probably be kicked from thesystem....



Oh, alright then.

Suddenly, 250 maelstroms come in and kill your jammer, THEN 50 titans come in and destroy everything you own. My bad. Roll
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2013-04-24 20:00:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Alx Warlord
Rudina wrote:

Wee use pretty much all our sov for one thing or another as hard as it may be for you to believe.

Even if we did drop the sov do you realy think we would let some random alliance take it? There were swathes of unclaimed systems in the drone regions before solar died yet still no one claimed them. This is because if anyone tried they would be shat on mercillesly. You realy think a system is free to be captured just because theres no name at the top? You realy think we would leave you in peace to rat up your sov?

We don't care how it looks, we care how it is since, you know,we actually live there.


I believe you. Goons have more then 20% of eve players and is the biggest EVE alliance. I also think that it is really compact for it's size. The point is that with this changes it will start to get harder to prevent people to try to get near the big power-blocks. And it would be also a little harder for the power-blocks to kick the surrounding small alliances that really want their space in 0.0.

Also if CCP solves the technetium problem, The Ice problem, The POS problem And the SOV problem, all 0.0 systems will have their value. and mostly the players will have more value then the resources of the system.

Goons will keep as the most strong alliance in EVE, but the other small alliances will have their place also.

I trust that this will make the overall game-play better.
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2013-04-24 20:01:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Alx Warlord
Danika Princip wrote:
Alx Warlord wrote:

No. As long as you have enough Sov to keep the Cyno Jammer upgrade active. But if you fail to keep this upgrade active you will probably be kicked from thesystem....



Oh, alright then.

Suddenly, 250 maelstroms come in and kill your jammer, THEN 50 titans come in and destroy everything you own. My bad. Roll


Correcting, Suddenly 250 maelstroms comes and attacks the main POS trying to reinforce it.... and there is a chance for the people there to fight back. ( or at last bomb some...)
Rudina
xDECOYx
Fraternity.
#28 - 2013-04-24 20:04:11 UTC
Alx Warlord wrote:


Come on! This is not so hard to understand. CCP did something similar to Faction warfare and worked pretty well. There was market manipulation also, but this was already solved.

About the market same thing...

about building stuff, same thing, you just need to chose the right maker. like mineral vallue. and the amount of points that this will return. If you have a System only to build Shuttles it is OK, but don't think that this creates any kind of "perpetual motion".


As far as I understand the mechanic number of kills has absolutely no relevence to the sov of a system in FW, please correct me if I am wrong.

The market has no relevence what so ever to FW so I dont see your point there.

With regards to industry we will find out exactly what the most efficient method is and game it on an alliance level.

The main point to that section of my post was that these are the exploits I came up with after 5 minuites of looking at your thread, what do you think will happen when you give it to the nullsec comunity (probably the most notorious community in the gaming world for metagaming) and make it so it matter to our way of life? The earth will shake with the weight of our workarounds and our exploits will blot out the sun.
Rudina
xDECOYx
Fraternity.
#29 - 2013-04-24 20:05:02 UTC
Alx Warlord wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Alx Warlord wrote:

No. As long as you have enough Sov to keep the Cyno Jammer upgrade active. But if you fail to keep this upgrade active you will probably be kicked from thesystem....



Oh, alright then.

Suddenly, 250 maelstroms come in and kill your jammer, THEN 50 titans come in and destroy everything you own. My bad. Roll


Correcting, Suddenly 250 maelstroms comes and attacks the main POS trying to reinforce it.... and there is a chance for the people there to fight back. ( or at last bomb some...)


You can do that on six seperate occasions during a sov defence now. What changes?
Rudina
xDECOYx
Fraternity.
#30 - 2013-04-24 20:14:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Rudina
Alx Warlord wrote:


I believe you. Goons have more then 20% of eve players and is the biggest EVE alliance. I also think that it is really compact for it's size. The point is that with this changes it will start to get harder to prevent people to try to get near the big power-blocks. And it would be also a little harder for the power-blocks to kick the surrounding small alliances that really want their space in 0.0.

Also if CCP solves the technetium problem, The Ice problem, The POS problem And the SOV problem, all 0.0 systems will have their value. and mostly the players will have more value then the resources of the system.

Goons will keep as the most strong alliance in EVE, but the other small alliances will have their place also.


It won't be harder at all to prevent small entities from holding sov (or large ones for that matter) as it still comes down to fighting in space. This is essentally the point, making it slightly more annoying for us to kill 'tiny alliance x' isn't going to stop us if they try and take any of our space.

The problem with the 'value' of 0.0 systems is not related to POS, ICE, or sov, it is that any system under -0.4 truesec is essentially useless for PVE as they do not spawn any of the anomalies that are effective/efficient for ratting. This is why these systems are, by and large, empty of people.

As for player value, the history of eve shows that any alliance that does not value its members is doomed to failure, look at BOB or -A-.
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2013-04-24 20:16:30 UTC
Rudina wrote:
Alx Warlord wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Alx Warlord wrote:

No. As long as you have enough Sov to keep the Cyno Jammer upgrade active. But if you fail to keep this upgrade active you will probably be kicked from thesystem....



Oh, alright then.

Suddenly, 250 maelstroms come in and kill your jammer, THEN 50 titans come in and destroy everything you own. My bad. Roll


Correcting, Suddenly 250 maelstroms comes and attacks the main POS trying to reinforce it.... and there is a chance for the people there to fight back. ( or at last bomb some...)


You can do that on six seperate occasions during a sov defence now. What changes?


It gets much harder, since if the defenders are fighting back with all their strength they have a chance to recover the Sov that was lost during the attack. (Assuming you don't leave forces in the system to prevent them from repairing POS, running sites, minning, etc...) Also if the fight was a good one, and there was manny losses in the system, part of the sov is restored during the combat what ensures that will have another round.

Now the fight can go on forever, as long as one side is willing to attack and the other to defend. The one with more guts wins, the other retreats.
Rudina
xDECOYx
Fraternity.
#32 - 2013-04-24 20:21:27 UTC
Alx Warlord wrote:


Regarding your ninja editing quoting of the whiney WOW player (seriously EVENEWS24 is even worse than it used to be, why keep reading it?) shooting fish in a bucket is fun when you're not the fish, you should try it some time. Burn Jita was just a fun outing, not due to any lack of content at home.
Rudina
xDECOYx
Fraternity.
#33 - 2013-04-24 20:28:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Rudina
Alx Warlord wrote:


It gets much harder, since if the defenders are fighting back with all their strength they have a chance to recover the Sov that was lost during the attack. (Assuming you don't leave forces in the system to prevent them from repairing POS, running sites, minning, etc...) Also if the fight was a good one, and there was manny losses in the system, part of the sov is restored during the combat what ensures that will have another round.

Now the fight can go on forever, as long as one side is willing to attack and the other to defend. The one with more guts wins, the other retreats.


Cloaky camping prevents you do anything, we can camp a whole region with 20 dudes, x amount of cyno alts and a titan.

Aside from how easily exploitable your mechanic is (as I explained earlier) you are litterally rewarding them for losing, this doesn't sound very eve-like does it?

The fight will go on unill the small alliance runs out of ships, isk, morale and stupidity. Same as would happen with current mechanics.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#34 - 2013-04-24 20:32:51 UTC


Quote:
To mantain the Sov players would need to keep the system on certainly operational levels. That would determine the Sovereignty level of the system. It would be interesting if these levels with a UI like the incursion, where a marker in a bar increases or decreases depending on the activity.

The main markers would be:
Military: Increases by running NPC sites and killing capsulers ships in the system.
Industrial: Increases by minning and producing stuff in the system.
Economic: By Selling/buying stuff and using services.

The Sum of these levels would determine the level of the SOV.

The level of the SOV will determinate the availability of some system upgrades, like allowing to use cyno jamer. and other stuffs that i will mention below.


huh....

The Economic marker is terrible:
a.) Not every system has a station... how can you have buy/sell stuff without a station?
b.) Sales taxes go to the alliance, and can easily be manipulated... I sell my alt 1b units of trit, at any price I desire, and suddenly I've maxed the economic marker. This is either non-existent, or very easy to abuse.

The Military Marker is not applicable to all systems:
-- Some systems just make ****-poor ratting systems, generally for the same reasons that make the strategically important.

Industrial index:
-- Nullsec mineral distribution is very out-of-balance with manufacturing. Furthermore, there is very little cost benefit (and often a penalty) to performing POS production in nullsec. And Outposts are woefully inadequate in terms of services, especially compared to highsec.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#35 - 2013-04-24 20:34:40 UTC
Rudina wrote:
Alx Warlord wrote:


It gets much harder, since if the defenders are fighting back with all their strength they have a chance to recover the Sov that was lost during the attack. (Assuming you don't leave forces in the system to prevent them from repairing POS, running sites, minning, etc...) Also if the fight was a good one, and there was manny losses in the system, part of the sov is restored during the combat what ensures that will have another round.

Now the fight can go on forever, as long as one side is willing to attack and the other to defend. The one with more guts wins, the other retreats.


Cloaky camping prevents you do anything, we can camp a whole region with 20 dudes, x amount of cyno alts and a titan.

Aside from how easily exploitable your mechanic is (as I explained earlier) you are litterally rewarding them for losing, this doesn't sound very eve-like does it?

The fight will go on unill the small alliance runs out of ships, isk, morale and stupidity. Same as would happen with current mechanics.


Cloaky camping shouldn't prevent you from doing anything... although many nullbears are too risk-adverse to actually operate while under a threat, because it "makes their isk/hr ratio not worth it".
Rudina
xDECOYx
Fraternity.
#36 - 2013-04-24 20:37:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Rudina
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Cloaky camping shouldn't prevent you from doing anything... although many nullbears are too risk-adverse to actually operate while under a threat, because it "makes their isk/hr ratio not worth it".


You confuse cloaky camping with AFK cloaking, but please go mine or rat while I'm cloaked in system in a cyno hic.

E: or bomber for that matter since BLOPs are good now :sun:
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2013-04-24 20:40:16 UTC
Rudina wrote:
Alx Warlord wrote:


Regarding your ninja editing quoting of the whiney WOW player (seriously EVENEWS24 is even worse than it used to be, why keep reading it?) shooting fish in a bucket is fun when you're not the fish, you should try it some time. Burn Jita was just a fun outing, not due to any lack of content at home.


I bet that it was fun, I already tried it. ganking is fun. did you ready this also? http://evenews24.com/2013/04/24/greedy-goblin-burn-morons/ Killing noobs is one of the most fun things in eve Twisted what he says is mostly that you guys went PRO in the burn jita.

But about the lack of content, I can't say that there is no content at all. but should be MORE content to everyone, expecially related to 0.0. There should be places for small alliances there... and every year the blocks becomes less and larger... we are entering in the "end of the game" zone here, where one alliance conquer everything and the game shrinks...
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2013-04-24 20:49:51 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

a.) Not every system has a station... how can you have buy/sell stuff without a station?

That is why the second step is POS revamp.

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

b.) Sales taxes go to the alliance, and can easily be manipulated... I sell my alt 1b units of trit, at any price I desire, and suddenly I've maxed the economic marker. This is either non-existent, or very easy to abuse.


There are more ways to limit this... lets say that you uses some statistics to measure the market activity along the time, and with the active number of traders... if you have 2 chars trading billions of isk worth it is still 2 different chars marketing along 1 hour. now if 100 players do market activity at last once every hour during 5 hours/ day then you got something consistent. it would be to damn boring and expensive to exploit this... and would also be illegal, like botting atc...
Rudina
xDECOYx
Fraternity.
#39 - 2013-04-24 20:50:14 UTC
Alx Warlord wrote:
Rudina wrote:
Alx Warlord wrote:


Regarding your ninja editing quoting of the whiney WOW player (seriously EVENEWS24 is even worse than it used to be, why keep reading it?) shooting fish in a bucket is fun when you're not the fish, you should try it some time. Burn Jita was just a fun outing, not due to any lack of content at home.


I bet that it was fun, I already tried it. ganking is fun. did you ready this also? http://evenews24.com/2013/04/24/greedy-goblin-burn-morons/ Killing noobs is one of the most fun things in eve Twisted what he says is mostly that you guys went PRO in the burn jita.

But about the lack of content, I can't say that there is no content at all. but should be MORE content to everyone, expecially related to 0.0. There should be places for small alliances there... and every year the blocks becomes less and larger... we are entering in the "end of the game" zone here, where one alliance conquer everything and the game shrinks...


The sov map now looks not too dissimilar to how it did in 2006/7, most people seem to forget that.

Small alliances do have a place already but not without friends to help them, this is how it should be, it is an MMO after all and you can't nerf friendship.

The game has been growing year on year, every year since launch, apart from the inevitable tail offs of intrest between expansions (which all games suffer from) and the Incarna debarcle.
Rudina
xDECOYx
Fraternity.
#40 - 2013-04-24 20:52:21 UTC
Alx Warlord wrote:

There are more ways to limit this... lets say that you uses some statistics to measure the market activity along the time, and with the active number of traders... if you have 2 chars trading billions of isk worth it is still 2 different chars marketing along 1 hour. now if 100 players do market activity at last once every hour during 5 hours/ day then you got something consistent. it would be to damn boring and expensive to exploit this... and would also be illegal, like botting atc...


Now you're falling into the 'if we did x and banned y' trap to force your idea to work instead of looking for better alternatives.
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