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Retaining new players, the non-new player pov.
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NARDAC
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#41 - 2013-04-10 05:14:46 UTC
Peter Raptor wrote:
OP has a point.

There's little morality in Eve because there's little morality in the world.

If people don't believe they'll be held accountable for their actions in an after life, they will easily succumb to the temptation to act like utter beasts.

Thats the REAL problem in a nutshell.



I'm an atheist, and behave in a very moral way. It's call humanism. Look into it.
Peter Raptor
Galactic Hawks
#42 - 2013-04-10 05:18:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Peter Raptor
NARDAC wrote:
Peter Raptor wrote:
OP has a point.

There's little morality in Eve because there's little morality in the world.

If people don't believe they'll be held accountable for their actions in an after life, they will easily succumb to the temptation to act like utter beasts.

Thats the REAL problem in a nutshell.



I'm an atheist, and behave in a very moral way. It's call humanism. Look into it.



There is no good or evil, we all dance to the tune of our DNA - Richard Dawkins

Aren't you going to listen to your Atheist Prophet ?

I therefore really don't understand why your whining?

Evelopedia; 

The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion  †  
Job Valador
Professional Amateurs
#43 - 2013-04-10 05:22:51 UTC
Georgina Parmala wrote:
[

Forcing people to do something they don't want to makes them quit the game. More news at 11.


"The stone exhibited a profound lack of movement."
Psychotic Monk
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#44 - 2013-04-10 05:34:16 UTC
Did this thread really just become about how I'm a godless heathen? If you want to talk morality in the absence of god, please convo me, as I love those discussions, but maybe we should keep on topic?

Removing the god angle to that arguement, you're saying that my actions in game are the same as my actions out of game? I would commit murder because I would take your pawn in chess? Is that really your actual, for serious, not kidding arguement?

Belligerent Undesirables Selling Griefer Immunity
Peter Raptor
Galactic Hawks
#45 - 2013-04-10 05:47:51 UTC
NARDAC wrote:


Everything from "Ha ha ha, I just scammed some corp applicant out of 5 billion ISK, ain't I great at EVE" to "here is a link to the enemy fleet composition" but you click on it and it is an image of a 90+ year-old woman being gang raped.



People posting in Eve Online a 90 yr old getting gang raped and finding it amusing shows that these people are somewhat damaged in real life doesn't it?

Evelopedia; 

The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion  †  
NARDAC
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2013-04-10 05:51:59 UTC
It amazes me how many people miss the forest for the trees.


I stuck with the game because I had real world co-workers that served as great mentors. Unless they already have friends in the game, where is the typical new player going to get that?


I was able to get into good fleets and trusted corps, because I had co-workers that had been playing for years and ran a trusted corp. Where is the typical new player going to get that?


And why is it so hard for a new player to get into a good PvP situation? Because of all the damage they can do with AWOXing, spying, thievery, scamming.

And not just "can do" massive damage. Happens all the time in this game.

And, it is not a rare occasion that you find a new player looking to do harm. It is well over half of people claiming to be new players, that are actually asshat alts looking to do harm.



Why the low retention rate? Because the new player experience really sucks, for someone that wants to PvP, but doesn't have contacts in the game.

It isn't as hard for a carebear to find a good corp looking to take them in, however.

Perhaps that explains the high % of carebears in the game. They have a higher retention rate because it is easier for them to find a carebear corp willing to take them in, then it is for a PvPer to find a good PvP corp willing to take them in.
Saeri Averes-Vith
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2013-04-10 06:16:24 UTC
Can't say I blame you for being mad about that machariel incident. Not about the ship loss itself but rather that you probably really tried to help the player that eventually ganked you.
That may ruin your day, but really just that. You should have known not to trust someone that easily.

You seem like a decent person, OP, but you really seem to misjudge why EVE is so appealing to some people.
I consider myself a fairly new player and the everpresent threat of getting scammed/griefed is EXACTLY what kept and still keeps me in the game.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#48 - 2013-04-10 10:15:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
NARDAC wrote:

Perhaps that explains the high % of carebears in the game. They have a higher retention rate because it is easier for them to find a carebear corp willing to take them in, then it is for a PvPer to find a good PvP corp willing to take them in.


I don't think this is entirely it. Keep in contact with a few people from an old corp, most of whom were newbies when we flew together, and started out 100% "I just want to mine" carebear.

Some have gotten in with the well known "PvP corps" on nothing more than the requirements set forth by that corporation. Others have continued to "carebear" instead ... but they only do it part time, the rest of the time they're dicking around in w-space or roaming low or NPC null.

I don't pretend that it was my influence alone that changed their thinking ... but I definitely did help them revamp their training plans to make them viable in wars (e.g. "seriously, take the 2 days now to get Hull Upgrades 4 ... then train that 2 week indy skill")

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#49 - 2013-04-10 10:23:23 UTC
Asmodai Xodai wrote:
Think of a 5 year old learning chess. You don't just throw the kid in with a bunch of sadistic grandmaster wolves and let them kick the everloving bejesus out of him over and over again... what kind of experience would that be? He'd quit the game in an hour. What's typically done is to stick him in with guys who are the same age and have the same level of experience, and let him slowly work his way up without getting face-raped on an hourly basis.


Bad analogy.

This OP is an example of that same 5 year old trying to open a Chess school.

Setting out to teach newbies when you don't have a sufficient understanding of the game to teach them well is doing both those newbies and the game a great disservice.

Luckily, such attempts are often punished quickly by other players. Just like what happened here.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#50 - 2013-04-10 10:28:08 UTC
I really think CCP ought to raise the bar for creating a corp a little higher, and maybe make it clearer what the risks are. Skill and ISK-wise, it's pitched at the trial-alt level at the moment.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#51 - 2013-04-10 10:29:32 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Peter Raptor wrote:
NARDAC wrote:
Peter Raptor wrote:
OP has a point.

There's little morality in Eve because there's little morality in the world.

If people don't believe they'll be held accountable for their actions in an after life, they will easily succumb to the temptation to act like utter beasts.

Thats the REAL problem in a nutshell.
I'm an atheist, and behave in a very moral way. It's call humanism. Look into it.
There is no good or evil, we all dance to the tune of our DNA - Richard Dawkins

Aren't you going to listen to your Atheist Prophet ?

I therefore really don't understand why your whining?


And our DNA does not, in any way hold us accountable to anything. Especially not an afterlife (belief in which, you claim, is necessary for moral behavior).

It simply provides us with the structure that guides our mental processes and a set of urges.

And yet, most non-religious people are quite nice. The proportion of non-religious people who are quite nice is, in my experience, about the same as the proportion of religious (any denomination) people who are quite nice.


Anyway, within the context of a game, the only immoral actions are those that break the rules of the game or to attempt to create consequences outside of the game for actions that take place in the game. It's a wonderful concept called the magic bubble (or something like that). Trying to create actions that cross it is bad, cheating (based on whatever rules everybody agrees on at the start) is bad (because it pops that bubble), but whatever else happens inside of it is, morally, nothing.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
dethleffs
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#52 - 2013-04-10 10:41:15 UTC
Peter Raptor wrote:
OP has a point.

There's little morality in Eve because there's little morality in the world.

If people don't believe they'll be held accountable for their actions in life, they will easily succumb to the temptation to act like utter beasts.

Thats the REAL problem in a nutshell.


just scratch the afterlife bs and you have a very valid point.
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2013-04-10 10:44:39 UTC
NARDAC wrote:

Feeding lame, easy kills to the low sec residents.

I was so disgusted, I quit from the game.


Again, disgusted, I quit the game for another year.

If you ask me, the PvPer player base, like goons and AWOXers do FAR, FAR more to drive players away from the game than carebears do.


To keep new players, I think...

The game mechanics allow people to harass these corps out of existence, so they go away as quickly as they form.
I edited your post. I believe you are not looking at this game correctly. This isn't a game where everyone can win, some are going to lose.

If you play poker, do you try and take the other players money? Do you give all back at the end of the game? Perhaps in a 'friendly' game... perhaps not even then. In this game, you use every legitimate means to increase your chances of winning and thus increase the chances of the other guys losing.

The good players in Lowsec, like a good player in poker, will beat you. They will take your money. The Goons as a group are good at this game... they will take your money.

There is no coexistence... only a pause between conflict. IMO
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#54 - 2013-04-10 11:07:57 UTC
dethleffs wrote:
Peter Raptor wrote:
OP has a point.

There's little morality in Eve because there's little morality in the world.

If people don't believe they'll be held accountable for their actions in life, they will easily succumb to the temptation to act like utter beasts.

Thats the REAL problem in a nutshell.


just scratch the afterlife bs and you have a very valid point.


I'd go as far as to say it isn't a problem at all. It gives the mature, conflict-embracing PVP-er some targets they can gun for, possibly from the comfort of their moral high ground. Their alts are more detrimental to accountability then the people actually displaying these behaviours. The problem isn't about the lack of morality, but the lack of ingame consequences, and a players ability to affect the world from the safety of a scamming/griefing/stationhugging alt without exposing his main.
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#55 - 2013-04-10 11:08:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Corey Fumimasa
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Corey Fumimasa wrote:


The OP is floundering about trying to figure out why he stays in Eve. Without goal, purpose, or plan he runs into all kinds of trouble. And then wonders what makes this game so damned interesting!?

Which is a barrier to retention, which was the ops point. And he tried different things to try and find it, but did so unsuccessfully.


He is still here, and so are you. In spite of all the "helpful" people he encountered.

I think that the OP and people like him have trouble figuring out the game. In the same way they have trouble figuring out the entirety of why they even like the game. The two go hand in hand.

I have run into some pretty skilled PvPers who don't have a good grasp of gridfoo or in some cases even Concord agro mechanics. Carebears who don't understand contracts and a whole slew of bears who don't understand that self mined materials are not free and do not go onto the profit side of the equation.

Eve is a big place and there's always something new to learn about. That fact is made even more pronounced by the different play styles that the game supports.

Don't beat yourself up for making mistakes or for not understanding the whole game, its designed that way. And don't worry about the game being too hard on new players, some will stay and some will not, Eve will go on.

Best of luck OP
Fearghaz Tiwas
Perkone
Caldari State
#56 - 2013-04-10 11:22:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Fearghaz Tiwas
Malcanis wrote:
I really think CCP ought to raise the bar for creating a corp a little higher, and maybe make it clearer what the risks are. Skill and ISK-wise, it's pitched at the trial-alt level at the moment.



I think this actually has a bigger effect than what people realise. To a newbie, somebody who has the "experience" and whatnot to have his own corp, must know what their doing. This is obviously a fallacy. Add that to the fact that there are so many corps, it's really not suprising that new players find it hard to find a decent home, with people who can help them.

I certainly don't think E-uni is the be all and end all of teaching new players, and I certainly benefited from learning from players in much smaller corps. I just think that new players need a harder push to actually engage in the rest of the people in EVE, playing solo. Most people aren't tossers, but tossers tend to have more to say

Peter Raptor wrote:
OP has a point.

There's little morality in Eve because there's little morality in the world.

If people don't believe they'll be held accountable for their actions in an after life, they will easily succumb to the temptation to act like utter beasts.

Thats the REAL problem in a nutshell.



On the subject of morality without God, really? In this day and age? I truly dispair for you if the only thing keeping you from becoming a morally bankrupt savage is the (imo misguided) belief that you will go to heaven or hell. It must suck to not be able to think for yourself
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#57 - 2013-04-10 11:28:34 UTC
That is a very long post and the jist of it seems to be "people are dicks :("

well, yeah. And that turns away some players. The ability and freedom to be that way also attracts a lot of players. What other games have great scam, meta-gaming, revenge, etc stories? How many people read them and say "whoa, I have to try this game if you can do things like that and not get banned by some hand holding bs rules and GMs"

I also don't see why "new player retention" is such a bloody buzzword the last year or so, our subscriptions are at an all time high so the sudden desperate cries for looking at how to retain new players seems very very out of place
Akinesis
Black Rose Inc.
Black Rose.
#58 - 2013-04-10 12:06:04 UTC
I can relate to the recruitment problem for sure. At the moment, we've only recruited people we know in real life purely because anyone else can't be trusted. Just like the OP states. We've learnt that through bitter experience. Even with rigorous checks, griefers can still slip through. This is probably the only true annoyance I have with Eve, especially being a WH Corp. I understand that it's all part of the game and that, but the reluctance to recruit is the one thing that puts a crimp on the game. Especially when you've spent months or even years building something (by one's own standards) great.
Blade Mosh
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#59 - 2013-04-10 12:07:33 UTC
Georgina Parmala wrote:
Blade Mosh wrote:
And every insecure little laddy wants to be a big badass because being the bad guy is always lots of fun, and they can do it because it's completely anonimous. Their own little reality away from reality, where they can act out their insecurities and wishes they are unable to in RL.

I really question where people get this line of thinking from.

Are you (in the plural form encompassing people who hold such beliefs) such a badass in real life you can't fathom someone possibly screwing with you?

Little lady / 12 year old kid:
Most of the people who choose to be dicks are grown men (and there's probably a woman or two out there). In fact, they are mature far and beyond the typical "i'd kick your ass in real life" roidrage tears that come in response to losing some pixels. The "little ladies" won't usually pull it off, because they can't hold their hormones in check and blow it early.

Anonymous:
I play pen and paper Dungeons and Dragons. You know, little nerds sitting around a table. And when I say little nerds I mean 30-40 year old men, most of whom would straight up kick my ass with a hand tied behind their back.
I've player killed characters in my gaming group from time to time. And I don't mean "oh they lost a boat they have to replace" or "respawn in station lost implants worth some money". I mean I KILLED their character. Hand over your inventory sheet and go make a new level 1. While sitting across the table from them, drinking beers and looking them straight in the face.

Anonymous has little to do with a it. Unless you make a habit of beating the crap out of people that beat you at Risk or Monopoly. Then maybe you have a case. Otherwise, they would probably do the same to your face given an appropriate setting.

Insecurity:
lack of confidence or assurance; self-doubt:
From what I've seen it actually takes self confidence to engage in griefing. To start with, you have to overcome your own reservations and the social stigma of it. An insecure AWOXER is not going to get into a worthwhile corp, or will blow it before he can actually pull anything off. Or worse yet, end up the victim himself. An insecure ganker will never actually man up to do his research on what it takes, fit a ship, undock, find the target, etc. He will doubt his chance of success and fear the consequences.

As far as "Acting out wishes they are unable to in real life"... Isn't that what games are FOR? Particularly the ROLE PLAYING kind? Cause here I was, thinking I'm playing internet spaceships, because... you know... I can't real life spaceships.


You forget the part where I say "And thats all good,..." It's a bit of cynical sarcasm you don't take literally. Hence the light adding of "And thats all good,...". It's a continuation of a generally bias perspective. The eventual point being, you can't expect to play this game and have everyone always agree with you, or you with them. Thus, accept and deal with it, or quit. Instead of blaming others for your own unrealistic expectations lacking.

Now where did that beer go?!
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#60 - 2013-04-10 12:35:53 UTC
The real problem has a name: ALT

The ONLY way to introduce accountability would be to introduce and enforce a strict policy of one char per player.
This won't happen for obvious reasons, so there is no solution to the problem.

Ok, a partial workaround would be to introduce some kind of player ID (similar to what Blizzard did, but always visible) and at least enforce THAT. I can't see that happening either, though.