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R.I.P ORCA?

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Random Woman
Very Professional Corporation
#81 - 2013-04-09 05:25:19 UTC
It's great to collapse wormholes.
pussnheels
Viziam
#82 - 2013-04-09 07:22:04 UTC  |  Edited by: pussnheels
i am still convinced that a good orca pilot with the right implants and 3 maxed out hulks still can outperform 4 macks not by alot but enough to make it worth it
and if you think the orca is redundant what will people whine about the 3 bil rorqual when offgrid boosting is nerfed

I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire
Le Badass
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#83 - 2013-04-09 07:33:50 UTC
I have very limited experience with mining, but what I see from the arguments and the math is not that you should sell your orca.
Rather, you should get 1-2 more alts and an additional orca.
The alts to make the bonus worthwhile and the addictional orca to haul ore while the original one provides bonuses.

As a CCP shareholder, I'd like to remind you that all these upgrades to your game portfolio can be purchased with PLEX.






(Ok, I'm really not a CCP shareholder, plz don't ban me)
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#84 - 2013-04-09 07:33:55 UTC
a Max skilled Orca with mindlink adds ~70% yield so once you have 2 mining ships it's better to get an Orca as a third than another miner. Apart from that it can run a shield gang link to lower the chance of being ganked, it's less annoying due to its massive cargo hold and you can drop a probing ship in there to find your gravi sites. And that's just for mining, outside mining (both in PVE as PVP) it's massively useful.
Wodensun
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#85 - 2013-04-09 09:29:04 UTC
Gallamoth Sickle wrote:
Haulie Berry wrote:
Orca is amazing, learn to play.




HEY LOOK GUYS MY FIRST TROLL!! SOMEONE TAKE A PICTURE

the poster provides neither knowledge nor understanding so we profit nothing from this useless troll.....but hey where would be without idiots to hold us intelligent people up on their shoulders?


You call yourself intelligent but fail to see why the orca is good plus you ***** in GD...

Yeah shiny example of intelligence right here ladies and gents..

Do not give me likes them 101 likes arent a accident...
Velicitia
XS Tech
#86 - 2013-04-09 10:42:23 UTC
Gallamoth Sickle wrote:

1) the orca can hold mining ships
--------->am i the only one that finds this ability less then useful? more of a luxury then a necessity? I never find my self using the orca for its ability to hold mining ships. I get that its nice to have this ability if you want to mine in a system thats a few jumps away or with no station in it, but then i would argue most people dont like risking their orca in null sec by flying it around through multiple gates. Also its easy to get in a null sec corp with a good mining system with a station in the same system or one system away making the orcas ability to hold ships kinda pointless or un necessary.

2)The orca can refit mining barges
-------->yes this is usefull the orca can put more mining lasers on your ships. This is more useful in high sec then null sec i would argue though because null sec roids have huge amounts of ore in them so you can fit your ships for the type of ore you are going to mine and be good to go for hours... Again this is nice but more of a luxery then a necessity or in other words not a reason to fly the ship.

3) The orca has a huge hold that allows you to mine without having to stop and warp to station all the time.
------->this is true but now with the new changes you dont really need to warp to station all the time do you? i mean the retriever and mackinaw ore holds are insanely large now. I even find myself using retrievers and mackinaws as a mini orca!!! I mine with cheaper coveters and then jet can from them to retrievers and mackinaws because their holds are so large.

4)Oh lets not forget the mining bonuses!!!
-------->Ah yes the Orcas mining bonuses many of you might be thinking this is the main reason anyone flys an Orca not the hold. Or its a combination of the hold and the mining bonuses. But lets not be too quick to praise the mining bonuses and end the discussion here...lets consult the math and see what exactly do you get for these bonuses.

-------------->Harvester Capacitor Efficiency: cuts down on cap use for your mining lasers/harvesters
I really dont care about this bonus my lasers always have enough energy for their next cycle so......yea whatever

--------------->Laser Optimization: cuts down on your cycle time for mining lasers/harvesters
Freaking nice!!! yea this is what its all about!!!

-------------->Mining Laser Field Enhancement: increases the range of your lasers/harvesters
yea..... i guess this nice but i find warp fleet to 0 works just as well..............but i guess i can see the use in high sec where roids pop every cycle or other cycle but its just not the case in null.



1. It can hold any ships. Nice little base for hunting grav sites in a constellation. YMMV if you have people already doing this, or if you're forced into one system (e.g. renting nullsec space).

2. it can refit any ships. Not to mention that it can hold a shedload of crystals (both fresh and nearly dead ready-for-reprocessing ones), as opposed to the ~3 refits a barge (well, hulk) can hold.

3. even with it fit for tank, my orca has something like 120 or 130k m3 space in the cargobays (corp/ore/standard). Macks are nice and all with their 37,500 m3 bay, but that doesn't always cut it.

4. Bonuses
Cap Efficiency -- kinda meh, but it fits in with the other warfare links. I'm sure that if you were using an active tank (bad idea, unless you're only dealing with rats) it could/would be more useful; but an active tanked barge is pretty rare.

Cycle Time -- full skills + implant knock you down to just over 2 minutes (like 121.7 sec or something). Instant +33% yield.

Range -- full skills + implant push the lasers up to 26km. This is HUGE for mining the "good" ores out of a belt -- they're practically always in stupid places, especially in low or nullsec.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Cryxx Nadoa
Doomheim
#87 - 2013-04-09 10:53:14 UTC
Besides...it looks awsome ^^
Celly Smunt
Neutin Local LLC
#88 - 2013-04-09 11:01:49 UTC
1 Orca + 5 miners + 1 freighter...

The Orca is just fine and still more than "useful"

130K(plus) room in (well tanked) Orca with a few m3 to spare for rat salvage and loot, 981k m3 in the freighter and 5 x 15k m3 in the miners (yes, heavily tanked skiffs)

1186 pieces of Ice in one trip, 1186 m3 of ORE in one trip. (give or take depending on your Orca pilot's skills)

Orca gives the mining bonuses and gives you a transfer point from the Miner, to the freighter.

Nothing wrong with the Orca...

just my 0.02 worth.

o/
Celly

Imagine the possibilities....

Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.
My Postman
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#89 - 2013-04-09 11:04:32 UTC
When solo mining in a Mack i pull in 3700 m3 (mining crystal 1) in 3 mins. I need roughly 30 mins to fill the Macks 35k ore hold.

Now my buddy in his maxed out Orca shows up and we fleet.

My Mack pulls in 4280 m3 (mining crystal 1) in 2 mins 10 sec. I need roughly 20 mins to fill the Mack.

Thats for solo mining.


When doing Mining Ops ofc the Hulk comes in use. Depending on how many ships working on a belt you strip the entire belt fairly quick. Now imagine doing that without Orca support..

TL;DR: Solo mining: Orca is awesome!
Fleet mining: Orca is awesome!

Fake edit: Orca for hauling is crap, get a Freighter when moving large amounts of anything

Fake edit Nr. 2: I feel that the Op is slightly pissed off that a single miner (Retriever, Mack) can make a fair amount of iskies (isk/hour) but he forgets that the average single miner still cant compete with his uber mining fleet.
Angelique Duchemin
Team Evil
#90 - 2013-04-09 11:05:40 UTC
It's a hauling support vessel for larger mining operations. What's not to get?

It's a compromise between the Rorq and having Iterons dart around the mining op.

The very sun of heaven seemed distorted when viewed through the polarising miasma welling out from this sea-soaked perversion, and twisted menace and suspense lurked leeringly in those crazily elusive angles of carven rock where a second glance shewed concavity after the first shewed convexity.

Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
#91 - 2013-04-09 11:27:45 UTC
Gallamoth Sickle wrote:
Haulie Berry wrote:
Orca is amazing, learn to play.




HEY LOOK GUYS MY FIRST TROLL!! SOMEONE TAKE A PICTURE

the poster provides neither knowledge nor understanding so we profit nothing from this useless troll.....but hey where would be without idiots to hold us intelligent people up on their shoulders?



Haulie Berry wrote:
Gallamoth Sickle wrote:

no im not cause what your doing in your math is figuring implants and mining directer on the orca side but not on the hulk side well a hulk pilot can give some of those same basic leader boosts to his squad that your figurering for orca and not hulk squad leader so your still wrong and the fact that you cant type out the math equation to prove it makes me think your more wrong than you know



You want all in? Fine. We'll go all in.

All 5 skills, 2x MLU II, 3 modulated strips, 5 mining drones, T2 mining crystals, Michi's, and MX-1005 yield: 2111

With a max skill pilot in another Hulk acting as FC: 2282

That, plus an orca yields: 3305

2282 * 3 = 6846
3305 * 2 = 6610 + 312 (because if you're going to be a **** about it, the Orca can field a flight of drones too): 6922

6922 > 6846.

In conclusion:

You're still bad at this game.
You're still bad at math.



I see (and am not too surprised) that the OP has disappeared since Haulie's last maths proof post....

OP, I think you owe Haulie an apology!!!!!

Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
Eternus8lux8lucis
Guardians of the Gate
RAZOR Alliance
#92 - 2013-04-09 11:34:00 UTC
THE ORCA IS DEAD!! FURTHER PROOF EVE IS DYING!!!Twisted

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.
Gallamoth Sickle
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2013-04-09 19:37:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Gallamoth Sickle
http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Orca_Guide <-----you can see here the math is about 25% but this is still a bit low

(2.5%x3)*4=30%boost and you can add in an implant link boost its not much more so at perfect it still takes 4 mining ships to be worth the orca to use

becasue 30x3 is 90 and the 4 pushes it over 100% becasue some of the same leader SKILLS that you guys are figuring into the orca boost can be given by a pilot with the same skills flying a mining ship as the leader

all of you just regurgitate each others beliefes with out doing any of the math ur selves
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#94 - 2013-04-09 19:40:34 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
1) the orca can hold ANY ship.
2) the orca can refit ANY ship.


it is the only reason i feel temptation every time that power of two deal is on the go.

mobile ******* base.

forums.  serious business.
Gallamoth Sickle
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#95 - 2013-04-09 19:42:32 UTC
Jint Hikaru wrote:
Gallamoth Sickle wrote:
Haulie Berry wrote:
Orca is amazing, learn to play.




HEY LOOK GUYS MY FIRST TROLL!! SOMEONE TAKE A PICTURE

the poster provides neither knowledge nor understanding so we profit nothing from this useless troll.....but hey where would be without idiots to hold us intelligent people up on their shoulders?



Haulie Berry wrote:
Gallamoth Sickle wrote:

no im not cause what your doing in your math is figuring implants and mining directer on the orca side but not on the hulk side well a hulk pilot can give some of those same basic leader boosts to his squad that your figurering for orca and not hulk squad leader so your still wrong and the fact that you cant type out the math equation to prove it makes me think your more wrong than you know



You want all in? Fine. We'll go all in.

All 5 skills, 2x MLU II, 3 modulated strips, 5 mining drones, T2 mining crystals, Michi's, and MX-1005 yield: 2111

With a max skill pilot in another Hulk acting as FC: 2282

That, plus an orca yields: 3305

2282 * 3 = 6846
3305 * 2 = 6610 + 312 (because if you're going to be a **** about it, the Orca can field a flight of drones too): 6922

6922 > 6846.

In conclusion:

You're still bad at this game.
You're still bad at math.



I see (and am not too surprised) that the OP has disappeared since Haulie's last maths proof post....

OP, I think you owe Haulie an apology!!!!!


you dont have to figure out what a pefect hulk mines WHY WOULD IT MATTER the orca boost a percent of the base mining yield of the whatever mining ship is mining it doesnt boost after you stack all upgrades onto whatever mining vessel ur talking about. the Orca boosts about 33% of fleet base mining amount so the fact that you rambling on about what a hulk pilot mines as if that has anything to do with what the orca boosts means your a complete idiot
celebro
Ember Inc.
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#96 - 2013-04-09 20:07:18 UTC
When in mining fleet belt rats always go for my orca, lol Smile


Like I said hulk/covetor should have a fleet role bonus, mining fleets are not done afk, something that separates us from all those afk miners out there,
Chandaris
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#97 - 2013-04-09 20:07:41 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:
Orca is amazing, learn to play.
Haulie Berry
#98 - 2013-04-09 20:10:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Quote:
all of you just regurgitate each others beliefes with out doing any of the math ur selves


You're citing an article that was written before the advent of T2 link modules (judging by the 25% value, which is about what you would get from a T1 link), while accusing others of "regurgitating".

Here comes the clue train, last stop is you:

Since you didn't actually do the math, and instead relied on an outdated article, your numbers are wrong.

That's not all, though -

On today's episode of "Third Grade arithmetic, Internet Spaceships, and You," we learn all about the difference between percentage increases and percentage reductions.

A Mining Foreman Link - Laser Optimization II, when fitted to a max skilled Orca with a Mining Foreman Mindlink, reduces the cycle time of a strip miner by 32.34%.

Suppose you have a base yield-per-minute of 1000, and you want to know how that Orca will affect your yield.

If you're bad at Eve and Math, you might do something uniquely stupid, like multiply 1000 by 1.3234, to get 1323.4.

The problem with this is that it's completely. *******. Wrong.

The bonus is to cycle duration - you don't multiply by 1+bonus to get the new number, you DIVIDE by 1-bonus.

So our ACTUAL new yield amount is not 1323.4 - it's 1000/.6766 = 1478 (!)! Our 32.34% duration bonus is actually a 47.8% yield bonus.

But wait, there's more!

The mining foreman skill bonus (replaced by the MFML, here) and the Link module bonus stack multiplicatively. So our yield is now:

1000 * 1.15 (MFML) * 1.478 = 1699.7 - almost 70% over our base yield.

The only thing that makes it even REMOTELY a close contest between 2 hulks + orca and 3 hulks are the mining drones, which do not benefit from the Orca's boosting. This drops our aggregate bonus per hulk to about 56%.
Gallamoth Sickle
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#99 - 2013-04-09 20:47:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Gallamoth Sickle
HERE IS THE PROOF UR ALL A BUNCH OF RETARDS!!!Shocked


Mining Forman Link II = -2.5% cycle time or (.025)

Mining Forman Mind ILink = +50% or (.5)

Mining Dirrector (lvl 4) = +400% to mining link moduals or ( 4 )

so here is the equation

(.025*4.5)*3=.3375 or 33.75%


The breakdown because you are still too stupid to understandCry

.025*4.5 (mining forman link 2 x mining forman mind link bonus + the mining dirrector bonus (450%)) = .1125 or 11.25%

.1125*3 (11.25% boost per mining forman link II modual x 3 moduals)=.3375 or 33.75% boost to mining ships in squad

.3375x3=1.0125 or 100.125%

meaning you need orca + 3 mining ships or 4 accounts total to be getting 1.25% more boost than you would using 4 mining ships by them selves....

so 4 accounts any less your wasting your time Oops
vyshnegradsky
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#100 - 2013-04-09 21:02:27 UTC
Gallamoth Sickle wrote:
HERE IS THE PROOF I AM ******!!!Shocked


Mining Forman Link II = -2.5% cycle time or (.025)

Mining Forman Mind ILink = +50% or (.5)

Mining Dirrector (lvl 4) = +400% to mining link moduals or ( 4 )

so here is the equation

(.025*4.5)*3=.3375 or 33.75%


The breakdown because you are still too stupid to understandCry

.025*4.5 (mining forman link 2 x mining forman mind link bonus + the mining dirrector bonus (450%)) = .1125 or 11.25%

.1125*3 (11.25% boost per mining forman link II modual x 3 moduals)=.3375 or 33.75% boost to mining ships in squad

.3375x3=1.0125 or 100.125%

meaning you need orca + 3 mining ships or 4 accounts total to be getting 1.25% more boost than you would using 4 mining ships by them selves....

so 4 accounts any less your wasting your time Oops


fixed for you

This one's a bit over the edge guys.

Locked for breaking... well, pretty much all the rules.

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