These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Gallente

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#441 - 2013-04-09 00:39:31 UTC
BABARR wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:


As a final point for comparing BS vs Tier3 BC. Always consider the way they would perform vs each other. How does this new mega do in a 1v1 vs a Talos?



Easy : talos could escape cause way faster, mega can't if backup show up. Mega will be caught in many situation cause more sig and big ass, and die, talos will escape most often. Talos can tackle mega on a gate before mega warpout, mega can't tackle talos before he warpout.
If talos die, he going to lose only 40-50% of isk compare to a mega.
You should play to eve a bit more Big smile

Remove a hight slot on the mega for a low slot, like you did on the typhoon, problem solved. Why perfect slot layout for typhoon and not for mega? Give to mega's pilot a REAL choice between armor or shield tank. Actually, 6low slot on a BS is simply not enought to fit a decent armor tanked BS.



He really needs to do that with the tempest as well Now that the tempest is HUGE ship withtout its former agility and speed advantage and its closer to being an amarr ship than minmatar. For god's sake...

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Rysis Vyvorant
Shadow Legion X
Seriously Suspicious
#442 - 2013-04-09 00:39:38 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Ah yes, the Armageddon vs Dominix.

Personally, I think the strength of the neut bonus is being overestimated somewhat. Its a very cool bonus, but I think the impact of the domi's added tracking and optimal will be similar in power level - we'll have to wait and see. Please keep in mind that you will lose damage on fits that used hybrids before, but the fit will still be available.

I do want to look at the dominix power grid and see if it we can't find a better balance with the Armageddon, by adjusting one or the other.

I think the drone bay thing is kind of odd. Up the ship line you have Amarr with more bay, less bandwidth and Gallente vice versa, but at the BS scale you really can't give a drone ship less than max bandwidth, and you don't gain much from having more bay than the dominix already does. I didn't want to lower the dominix bay, so we just set the armageddon equal.

One last thing to mention: Personally, I really think sentry drones should move some, even if its only to return to bay. We need to talk some more about this internally and look at ways it can actually be implemented, but a change to this effect could have a very positive impact on the Dominix and I don't think its a very unrealistic goal.


I want you to think about something. What boat is there left for Gallente for PVE? With this change to the Domi not only is it full of meh for PvP but it is completely out classed by the Gedden for PVE. There is zero reason to fly any Gallente boat in PVE.

I can not see one reason to fly the Domi. I have a full rack of useless highs, a few vacant mids that do not add anything, and my lows are for DDA's and tank. I have lost over 25% of my dps (others have lost up to 50%) and gained a bonus that adds nothing to the PVE experience. What am I suppose to do in anoms? Warp in at 50, MWJ to 150km, and then apply pitiful dps that my Kronos could easily match? I could just fly a rattlesnake and be done with it...
S'totan
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#443 - 2013-04-09 00:44:31 UTC
Dear CCP...
I regret to inform you that adding mid slot to ship so it can shield tank, on a race that is an ARMOR tanking race is misinformed.
I also regret to inform you that this ship already exists... Talos.

There wasnt a problem with the mega in the first place. It was a well balanced DPS brawler with decent tank.
Now it has less EHP in armor, it was already crap.
It has less DPS from drones.
Its reduction to low slot makes the wonderful dps increase that you claim null as people will drop a magstab as aposed to its aleady horrid tank as a BS
Its ATTACK speed increase STILL counts for nothing as in scram range 122 m/s is like trying to track a mountain from a moving car.
Its ROF is laughable as the CAP usage of this is going to make all that amazing dps none appliciable.
Congradulations you have made this ship less good in 5 ways.
IF ANYTHING, drop the utility high slot for an extra mid, not a tanking slot.
As an AVID mega pilot, the ONLY thing this ship needed was more CPU.

THE HYPE, same thing....
Slot layout needs to be 7h 5m 7L
-remove a gun slot, give it a hull % bonus to counter the loss of dps from the dropped gun.
- the HYPE NEEDS 2 cap boosters a scram, web and prop mod.
-2 cap boosters are needed to maintain a duel rep tank. due to not ahving a tracking bonus it needs to web to slow down the target. OBVIOUSLY it needs a scram to keep its target there, and since you praise the MJD which works outstandingly on this ship, IT NEEDS this prop mod.

The domi.
THIS IS THE SHIP that is the shield tanker... NOT THE MEGA.
Shield tanked this boat was amazing, there is something about having near 1700 dps on a BS that just... HURTS...
THIS is the boat that NEEDS to be the attack BS.




Ashaton
Veiled Industries.
#444 - 2013-04-09 00:47:03 UTC
Rysis Vyvorant wrote:

I want you to think about something. What boat is there left for Gallente for PVE? With this change to the Domi not only is it full of meh for PvP but it is completely out classed by the Gedden for PVE. There is zero reason to fly any Gallente boat in PVE.



Ishtar and Vindicator I guess... of course after this latest monstrosity of a nerf I'm sure by this Christmas the Ishtar will have a Medium Rail platform and the Vindicator will be a logi ship.
Jinde Usoko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#445 - 2013-04-09 00:47:20 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:
On a personal note, I am saddened to see that the Dominix is losing 1/2 of its dps while not being compensated in any way. The solution to this is obvious: give the Dominix a +1 drone controlled per level.

This would make it better than the Armageddon as a drone boat (keeping with the Gallente flavor), while keeping it useful as a mission ship, pvp boat, fleet ship, etc.

As a further note on keeping the ship useful (and not terribly overpowered with the increased drones (10 total), change the +10% drone damage and hitpoints per level to +10% drone hitpoints and tracking (or optimal) per level.

Both of these changes would keep the Dominix unique and strong in both fleet pvp and pve situations while not being terribly overpowered.
QFT. This idea would certainly add uniqueness to Domi and remove special snowflake status of Guardian-Vexor.
Mariner6
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#446 - 2013-04-09 00:51:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Mariner6
Ashaton wrote:
Sorry can someone explain this to me...

If the Dominix is supposed to be a drone sniper now, doesn't that mean it's basically going to have to kite? But its main source of damage will now have to come from sentries, which don't move... so how is it going to be able to kite?


It won't kite. The only set up now that seems even worth while anymore is much like the fit that was posted earlier doing remote rep with each other. So they just huddle in close together and all drop out sentry drones. the ships and certainly not the drones don't do much moving. In the set up posted they are not even responsible for tackling. They just assign drones to the FC or target caller (probably in some ECCM fit recon) and all the sentries shoot the target. All the domi's rep each other/power transfer. That's it. In big masses this is ok, but very susceptible in smaller groups to neutralizers and ecm. Also they really don't rep that much compared to bringing boats meant to do logi (ie guardians and Oni's so its kind of meh.) It can be fun because sometime people will engage when they don't see logi on the field, but these are BS so that will give many pause anyways and rr domi's are rather expected. Of course against any real opponent they will just bring a bunch of Naga's, rokh's, mael's etc and just alpha through them depending on numbers. Its a fun but niche fleet concept. It certainly has some utility, but frankly I would rather bring dedicated logi and have the nueting power of a similar number of Geddons. That will make some cap pilots think twice I think about dropping. And they are almost now immune to tackling by small groups. Combine the neut power/sentries/cheap logi boats/ and MJD the Geddon pack will be very strong. So much so I don't know if it will get fights except by long range alpha gangs.
Mariner6
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#447 - 2013-04-09 00:53:43 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Maximus Andendare wrote:
Dominix is losing 1/2 of its dps.

False, it loses 25% and that is it, the choice to not fit turrets is on you.


Its more than that due to heat. And even if its not, 25% is pretty big considering what you have left are slow and destructible.
Ashaton
Veiled Industries.
#448 - 2013-04-09 00:57:37 UTC
Mariner6 wrote:
Ashaton wrote:
Sorry can someone explain this to me...

If the Dominix is supposed to be a drone sniper now, doesn't that mean it's basically going to have to kite? But its main source of damage will now have to come from sentries, which don't move... so how is it going to be able to kite?


It won't kite. The only set up now that seems even worth while anymore is much like the fit that was posted earlier doing remote rep with each other. So they just huddle in close together and all drop out sentry drones. the ships and certainly not the drones don't do much moving. In the set up posted they are not even responsible for tackling. They just assign drones to the FC or target caller (probably in some ECCM fit recon) and all the sentries shoot the target. All the domi's rep each other/power transfer. That's it. In big masses this is ok, but very susceptible in smaller groups to neutralizers and ecm. Also they really don't rep that much compared to bringing boats meant to do logi (ie guardians and Oni's so its kind of meh.) It can be fun because sometime people will engage when they don't see logi on the field, but these are BS so that will give many pause anyways and rr domi's are rather expected. Of course against any real opponent they will just bring a bunch of Naga's, rokh's, mael's etc and just alpha through them depending on numbers. Its a fun but niche fleet concept. It certainly has some utility, but frankly I would rather bring dedicated logi and have the nueting power of a similar number of Geddons. That will make some cap pilots think twice I think about dropping.


My suspicions exactly. Basically a useless line to train into for both PvE and PvP. Thankfully I gave up on Gallente ships a long time ago. Like I mentioned earlier, the best hybrid platform comes from the Caldari, while the best drone platform now comes from the Amarr. I seriously don't get the point of training into Gallente at all at this point unless you want to fly A) Ishtar B) Vindicator C) Macharial (for bonus)
Tuxedo Catfish
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#449 - 2013-04-09 00:58:51 UTC
Rysis Vyvorant wrote:

I want you to think about something. What boat is there left for Gallente for PVE? With this change to the Domi not only is it full of meh for PvP but it is completely out classed by the Gedden for PVE. There is zero reason to fly any Gallente boat in PVE.


Actually, the drone tracking and optimal bonus is great for sentry-based anomaly ratting and one of the only good things about the proposed Dominix change is that there might be a reason to fly one instead of an Ishtar now.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#450 - 2013-04-09 01:00:54 UTC
Mariner6 wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Maximus Andendare wrote:
Dominix is losing 1/2 of its dps.

False, it loses 25% and that is it, the choice to not fit turrets is on you.


Its more than that due to heat. And even if its not, 25% is pretty big considering what you have left are slow and destructible.


Ye sbut the application of the drone damage increased , so effectivelly its not THAT muchdifferent from 25%.

In fact I think dominix would be ok if it gained a LOT of lock range bonus. So it could be useful as some sort of hgih buffer tanked sniper with RR. But as I said it need further adjustments for that.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#451 - 2013-04-09 01:02:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Sergeant Acht Scultz
My favorite ship...what are you doing? Cry


Put that utility high on mids so we can make it a Megatalos...Cry good bye Megathron, R.I.P.

EDIT: if you really want to make it a good dmg platform at least with those slots changes just replace the tracking bonus for a +5% dmg on top of 5% ROF.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#452 - 2013-04-09 01:06:06 UTC
Honestly switching around the slot layout makes both ships (Megathron & Hyperion) so much more interesting not only in a ship by ship perspective but also for the entire gameplay...

The Shield Hyperion might be replaced by the Shield Megathron but so what?
The Megathron will consume more cap but if you can manage it will tear apart any oposition in a short timespan and such doesn't need much staying power - that lost lowslot will work perfectly for cap boosting, web, eccm or whatever you feel for...
The role for prolonged combat suits the Hyperion nicely and you can plate it like you used to do with the Mega or make sustained battleship with good dps and average tank or less/more depening on your fit.

Honestly I rarely appreciated the 5th medslot on the Hyperion and I can hardly wait to try out the new and IMO improved Megathron. If you guys want to complain about something you should look at the pathetic and boring scorpion who barely got any attention at all or the fact that attack battlecruisers are allowed to take a **** down the back on most battleships with suppreme dps and the velocity to dictate range against anything bigger than a cruiser... But the Gallente line is actually nice and inspiring!!

Pinky
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#453 - 2013-04-09 01:08:44 UTC
As a rule of thumb Almsot no good reception on any of the changes. The only change that was somewhat popular was the armageddon one (that is definitely powerful) The apoc one is not badly seen as well, mainly because it only needs a bit more CAP to be viable.



But overal the community spoke CCP, and this time you made a HORRIBLE work .

You are destroyin the identity of races ! That is not easily accepted! Go back to the drawing board. Rethink everythign even if you do not deliver battleship rebalance for this expansion. These shisp are already nto used enough, you need to make them more powerful, not turn them inside out and make silly non existant roles for them.


Increase damage bonuses so that high slots can be freed to other places. Do not try to make ships be all inline with each other. Its important that amarr have more HP than minmatar , while signature be the opposite. Its important that caldari are nhot fast! Its important thatn caldari get significant shield advantage.


Please think in the RACES before the quite silly and without purpose artificial roles of attack and combat.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Rysis Vyvorant
Shadow Legion X
Seriously Suspicious
#454 - 2013-04-09 01:10:33 UTC
Tuxedo Catfish wrote:
Rysis Vyvorant wrote:

I want you to think about something. What boat is there left for Gallente for PVE? With this change to the Domi not only is it full of meh for PvP but it is completely out classed by the Gedden for PVE. There is zero reason to fly any Gallente boat in PVE.


Actually, the drone tracking and optimal bonus is great for sentry-based anomaly ratting and one of the only good things about the proposed Dominix change is that there might be a reason to fly one instead of an Ishtar now.


I disagree. In a few days I will be hitting out past 120km with drones. I already hit to 110km and have very good damage application along with decent gun dps. I just feel that the new Domi has a lot of wasted slots now. If there were high or mids that added DPS to the drones then fine, but there is nothing. I really have no reason to fly the Domi.
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#455 - 2013-04-09 01:11:32 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Maximus Andendare wrote:
Dominix is losing 1/2 of its dps.

False, it loses 25% and that is it, the choice to not fit turrets is on you.
I'm not really sure what Dominix you fly, but a fairly typically fit Dominix, just playing with EFT, gives me 655 dps from Ions (with Void) or 587 dps with CNAM and 554 from Sentries or 584 from Heavies. In either case, 655/587 > 584, which--magically--amounts to HALF.

In case you're wondering:

Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L

100MN Afterburner II
Cap Recharger II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Warp Disruptor II

Damage Control II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Large Anti-Explosive Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I

Dps (Ogre IIs) with CNAM: 1171 and Void: 1239.

- - -

And if you're going to ask: the damage numbers with 2x DDAs: 1234, 2x MFS: 1258, 1 MFS 1 DDA: 1239[/i]. So if anything, the Domi does MORE damage with its blasters than it does with the drones--FAR more than the 25% number you mentioned and that's not even considering overheated or using Neutrons.

tl;dr The point: the Domi is losing [i]far more than 25% of its damage by losing its hybrid bonus, and its not being compensated for it.

Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

>> Play Eve Online FREE! Join today for exclusive bonuses! <<

Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#456 - 2013-04-09 01:12:53 UTC
Mariner6 wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Maximus Andendare wrote:
Dominix is losing 1/2 of its dps.

False, it loses 25% and that is it, the choice to not fit turrets is on you.


Its more than that due to heat. And even if its not, 25% is pretty big considering what you have left are slow and destructible.

Heat is balanced within the module and not around the ships, and nor are the ships balanced around using heat as it is a last ditch thing and not to be use for the full combat operation.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#457 - 2013-04-09 01:18:22 UTC
is someone going to take the initiative and edit this mess (C++ source, requires boostlib headers), strip out the retribution 1.1 stuff since it's in the latest EFT and add the battleship changes

because i'm really not inclined to pull an allnighter on that

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Mariner6
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#458 - 2013-04-09 01:21:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Mariner6
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Mariner6 wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Maximus Andendare wrote:
Dominix is losing 1/2 of its dps.

False, it loses 25% and that is it, the choice to not fit turrets is on you.


Its more than that due to heat. And even if its not, 25% is pretty big considering what you have left are slow and destructible.

Heat is balanced within the module and not around the ships, and nor are the ships balanced around using heat as it is a last ditch thing and not to be use for the full combat operation.



Heat is not a last ditch thing. It is the single most powerful addition to the fight and should always be used as much as you can all the time. And overheating bonused guns is a big deal because it can often be the difference between winning and losing. Particularly when you drones have been smart bombed or blapped. Yes you can still overheat your unbonused guns but it is not going to push you over that edge particularly against the extra bit of enemy logi. It is a big deal and one of the reasons why the Vexor is such an awesome boat. It simply would not be the same without its bonus guns blasting away, heated. There is simply no equivalent for pure drone damage. NONE. Now if you could overheat your drones....well that would change my tune.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#459 - 2013-04-09 01:21:29 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Maximus Andendare wrote:
Dominix is losing 1/2 of its dps.

False, it loses 25% and that is it, the choice to not fit turrets is on you.
I'm not really sure what Dominix you fly, but a fairly typically fit Dominix, just playing with EFT, gives me 655 dps from Ions (with Void) or 587 dps with CNAM and 554 from Sentries or 584 from Heavies. In either case, 655/587 > 584, which--magically--amounts to HALF.

In case you're wondering:

Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L

100MN Afterburner II
Cap Recharger II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Warp Disruptor II

Damage Control II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Large Anti-Explosive Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I

Dps (Ogre IIs) with CNAM: 1171 and Void: 1239.

- - -

And if you're going to ask: the damage numbers with 2x DDAs: 1234, 2x MFS: 1258, 1 MFS 1 DDA: 1239[/i]. So if anything, the Domi does MORE damage with its blasters than it does with the drones--FAR more than the 25% number you mentioned and that's not even considering overheated or using Neutrons.

tl;dr The point: the Domi is losing [i]far more than 25% of its damage by losing its hybrid bonus, and its not being compensated for it.



His point is you can still fit turrets. Even without bonus. SO tis not like you lost 50% of the damage.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#460 - 2013-04-09 01:22:33 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Maximus Andendare wrote:
Dominix is losing 1/2 of its dps.

False, it loses 25% and that is it, the choice to not fit turrets is on you.
I'm not really sure what Dominix you fly, but a fairly typically fit Dominix, just playing with EFT, gives me 655 dps from Ions (with Void) or 587 dps with CNAM and 554 from Sentries or 584 from Heavies. In either case, 655/587 > 584, which--magically--amounts to HALF.

In case you're wondering:

Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L

100MN Afterburner II
Cap Recharger II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Warp Disruptor II

Damage Control II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Large Anti-Explosive Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I

Dps (Ogre IIs) with CNAM: 1171 and Void: 1239.

- - -

And if you're going to ask: the damage numbers with 2x DDAs: 1234, 2x MFS: 1258, 1 MFS 1 DDA: 1239[/i]. So if anything, the Domi does MORE damage with its blasters than it does with the drones--FAR more than the 25% number you mentioned and that's not even considering overheated or using Neutrons.

tl;dr The point: the Domi is losing [i]far more than 25% of its damage by losing its hybrid bonus, and its not being compensated for it.

This exact fit run on both the old Dominix and the New Dominix
Old Dominix 1171 DPS
New Dominix 1053 DPS

And just for good measure
Old with Heat 1259 DPS
New Dominix with head 1124 DPS

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.