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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Gallente

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Havegun Willtravel
Mobile Alcohol Processing Units
#401 - 2013-04-08 23:24:08 UTC
Hi Rise,

Have a good nights sleep and when you wake up we'll pretend this was a bad idea, I mean dream.

Mega - Maybe it's not as bad as I think. Split slots are kinda like split weapons systems. They have a tendency to be mediocre, But, they can make things interesting and unpredictable. Drone bay nerf still sucks hard though.

Hype - If, Big IF, you're gonna make this a brawler then it needs PG. ALOT. ATM it's almost the worst of the group. Rokh will fit dual asb's and neutrons no problem. I see nothing to suggest the Hype has been buffed enough to fit dual rep and Neutrons. ( And minus the second cap injector I don't think it can keep then running very long ). Could really use +50 drone bay for a disposable flight of web drones if we '' have to '' go that way
. Still not sure it's gonna do much to fix a hull that needs a full rework.


" Personally, I think the strength of the neut bonus is being overestimated somewhat. Its a very cool bonus, but I think the impact of the domi's added tracking and optimal will be similar in power level " Shocked

No dude, 40 k large neuts with 35k+ bonused points are not being over estimated. Domi sucks. MWD bonus + who knows what to make anyone look at it's ugly ass again. Tracking and optimal aren't worth jack if Ogre's can't chase you down. And sorry, no sentry buff will make up for a useless bonus. Geddon will use sentries to.

NN
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#402 - 2013-04-08 23:25:59 UTC
Arazel Chainfire wrote:
and if you have more than about 2 people in fleet you would be better off having someone in a logi to rep you anyways, due to how horribad active armor tanking is on large ships.

This is absolutely wrong ! This is a myth ! A LAAR+LAR or triple rep hyperion tank more than an abaddon with oneiros repair !
Powers Sa
#403 - 2013-04-08 23:27:01 UTC
wooooooooooooooooooooooo I can't wait to go back to welping in highsec to wardecs:
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=13742506
ahahahaha THANKS RISE!!! We can re-add our DAS NEUT geddon to the DAS BOOT domi fleet comp.

Do you like winning t2 frigs and dictors for Dirt Cheap?https://eveninggames.net/register/ref/dQddmNgyLhFBqNJk

Remeber: Gambling addiction is no laughing matter unless you've lost a vast space fortune on the internet.
Olaf4862
Dragoon Industries Limited
#404 - 2013-04-08 23:28:50 UTC
Adriel Malakai wrote:
Saul Hyperion wrote:

Drop the utility high, restore the low and the Megathron is heading down the right track.


But I love the neut on my mega Cry


Not to rain on your parade, but just use drones for neuting have get them to buff them so they work better.

I keep thinking that removing the 1 high on the mega and put it in the mid is the way to go. This along with fixes to drones could make the mega extremely potent as a shield or armor tank with a full flight of drones for dps or utility.

Of course this would mean making heavy drones not suck in pvp...
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Horse Feathers
CAStabouts
#405 - 2013-04-08 23:29:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Fronkfurter McSheebleton
baltec1 wrote:


With these changes it [megathron] will be a great roaming BS yet also able to fill roles in larger fleets.

It will be far too squishy as a large fleet ship. Rokhs will beat it in damage projection and tank, Baddons beat it in damage projection and tank. Maelstroms will still dominate them because of alpha, despite not even using one of their bonuses. They have enough mids and natural buffer to fit a sufficient tank.

That leaves mobility-intensive roles as its only advantage. Even with its extra dps, landing it on top of another fleet would be suicide, as it doesn't have enough tank to hold up in a large fleet environment. You could fit railguns and hit people from out of range, but at that point...why not just fly nagas?

The hype, armor buffer fit, had about the same ehp as the mega before this, and will have significantly more without it, so despite the useless bonus, it's now the better armor fleet ship....but still worse than the rokh and baddon. Mega will likely struggle to break 90k ehp on a fleet fit. Theoretically you could shield tank it now, but there's really no reason to use it over a rokh for large fleet use. Armor buffer is pretty much a no-go too, as is active tanking, since it hasn't got a bonus and unbonused active fits are awful.

The fallacy here is that they're still trying to make the megathron the attack BS. The dominix's bonuses don't play nicely with large fleets, but the mega's do. Conversely, the domi works wonderfully for fighting on gates and stations, and other small scale combat...not so much for large, moving fleets. So keep the domi squishy, but add mobility to the ship as well as the drones, and up the hitpoints on the megathron to match the hyperion (plus some shield ehp), and we'll have a nice couple of ships. It would even be nice to see the domi's hitpoints and dps bonus get "and ewar effectiveness" tacked onto it, to conform a bit more to the role of the scorpion and new geddon.

thhief ghabmoef
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#406 - 2013-04-08 23:29:50 UTC
Mariner6 wrote:
They are hoping that we'll dual prop the mega with an MJD. That would be interesting, maybe if the boat could naturally target out to 110kms or so. That way you could land and immediately scram/web the target but all that will happen is that the target will burn range before you lock. And if you go with this concept then you have to buffer armor tank, meaning any bonus to speed and agility is now lost to trimarks. Cap and fitting will be a big issue with dual prop and the boat will be very gimped. So I guess you could take the utility high and stick it in a low but a Mega without a Heavy Neut will be a very stuck Mega. Once scrammed it will be immobile and unable to apply DPS. So better to just get into an APOC and who cares if your tackled? You have lolscorch and Mega tracking, oh and drones, to kill everything.

So maybe go 7/5/7 (6 guns, 1 utility high) and up the Damage to 7.5% or something so that there is no loss in DPS. Up CPU and Grid to make it all work?


You can already do this with a navy mega and hit to 140km doing 450ish dps. It isnt mids that makes that viable - its lows allowing solid damage + range with a good tank. TCs eat too much CPU, TEs are superior on CPU starved ships.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#407 - 2013-04-08 23:32:30 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

I do want to look at the dominix power grid and see if it we can't find a better balance with the Armageddon, by adjusting one or the other.

Even without the neuting bonus, the powergrid disparity of 5,500 will be more than enough reason to select the Armageddon.
Mariner6
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#408 - 2013-04-08 23:33:54 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Arazel Chainfire wrote:
and if you have more than about 2 people in fleet you would be better off having someone in a logi to rep you anyways, due to how horribad active armor tanking is on large ships.

This is absolutely wrong ! This is a myth ! A LAAR+LAR or triple rep hyperion tank more than an abaddon with oneiros repair !


Point taken but its a) Pretty rare to see solo logi, but yes does happen. b) But much harder to neut or hit that solo logi repper at range no?
Tuxedo Catfish
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#409 - 2013-04-08 23:35:14 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

In the Megathron and the Hyperion, we had two ships that more or less shared some space. They were both armor focused blaster brawlers. The mega was armor focused because of its slot layout - but it had increased utility from one extra high slot and a larger drone bay, and also had an easier time applying damage because of the tracking bonus. Then we had the Hyperion which was bonused to look more like a heavy brawler - focused completely on damage and tank, because of having no utility high, less drones, and a tank focused bonus instead of tracking.


This is where you went wrong, I think.

The Megathron and the Hyperion do not share the same space. From the point of view of any well-informed Gallente pilot, the Hyperion might as well not exist -- the Gallente only have two battleships, one droneboat, and one armor/blaster brawler. You shouldn't be trying to move the Megathron away from that role -- you should be throwing out the useless and misconceived "role" the Hyperion attempts to fill and making it into something entirely new and exciting.

Personally I think it would make a great analogue to the Scorpion, as a Gallente e-war battleship in the same line as the Maulus -> Celestis -> ???. The active tanking line is missing an entry at the cruiser size and has two battlecruiser entries, it doesn't need one at battleship size.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#410 - 2013-04-08 23:40:01 UTC
Gabriel Karade wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Akirei Scytale wrote:

That isn't similar damage, it is significantly less with the loss of a magstab.

How does the loss of a magstab compare with the gains from a switch to an ROF bonus from the damage bonus?
Losing a heavy drone, while switching to ROF means no change (actually, it's an ever so slight loss in DPS). Losing a Magstab on top of that however, means it's actually a significant loss.

Basically:
7 guns, 5% dmg bonus = 8.75 turrets + 2 mag stabs (+47%) = 12.9
7 guns, 5% RoF = 9.33 turrets + 1 mag stab (+23%) = 11.5

Thanks for confirming, seemed like less DPS after the change but wasn't sure the exact numbers.
Adriel Malakai
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#411 - 2013-04-08 23:47:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Adriel Malakai
Olaf4862 wrote:
Not to rain on your parade, but just use drones for neuting have get them to buff them so they work better.

I keep thinking that removing the 1 high on the mega and put it in the mid is the way to go. This along with fixes to drones could make the mega extremely potent as a shield or armor tank with a full flight of drones for dps or utility.

Of course this would mean making heavy drones not suck in pvp...


Using 4 Praetor EV-900s, you'd neut 100GJ less cap per 24s (heavy neut cycle time) than the neut. Add that to losing 200+dps to not having heavy drones (or 150+dps for mediums), and that the drones can be killed super easy, and this is a terrible idea. Neut drones are bad.
nat longshot
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#412 - 2013-04-08 23:50:19 UTC
Ok now before side change happen WFT are you thinking ccp.

I to lazy to look it up but did a gm/ccp member state in some other post the mega is fine dont see a need to change it.

But not were droping alow slot off a armor tanked ship for a med so you can fit a MJD thats just messed up.

Just at the new mid slot for the mjd and the power and cpu to fit a mwd/ab and the mjd.

You remove a low will kill the mega give low hp and even lower dps thank to no armor res or armor buff to make up for the loss of the low slot.

The mega need all the lows its has to get in range to use those damn blasters and your killing with the first idea.

CCP do you even fly these ships?

 [13:12:18] CCP Punkturis nat longshot you're a cutie.. OH YAH I WIN!!
Arrs Grazznic
Poena Executive Solutions
#413 - 2013-04-08 23:52:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Arrs Grazznic
CCP Rise wrote:
Megathron:

Let me say it right out - 8 high, 5 mid, 6 low. With the Megathron moving into an attack role explicitly, we felt that it could really focus on its strengths as a flexible, fast, hybrid damage machine. The new slot layout opens options like dual propulsion with microwarp drive as well as microjump drive. It opens options to tank with shield or armor. It offers more ewar resilience or tackle. The sum of all of these examples is a ship that feels more like a tempest, less like a Hyperion. For us, this matches the intended personality of an attack ship, and we hope you agree.

We've also moved some of its damage from drones to the guns by switching the damage bonus to a rate of fire bonus (rate of fire bonus are more efficient because of the way the math works. Think about how a ship with 50% bonus to rate of fire would shoot twice as often, doing double damage. That would be the same as a 100% turret damage bonus). The result is that more of your damage can capitalize on the tracking bonus, at a small penalty to cap need.

As one of Eve's most iconic ships, we expect you to have strong opinions here. Please share them. We're very excited about this version of the ship and hope you are too!

Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+5% Large Hybrid Turret rate of fire (replaces large hybrid turret damage)
+7.5% Large Hybrid Turret tracking speed

Slot layout: 8H, 5M(+1), 6L(-1); 7 turrets , 0 launchers(-2)
Fittings: 16000 PWG(+500), 550 CPU(+25)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6300(+89) / 6500(-141) / 7500
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 5800(+175) / 1087s / 5.02 (+.15)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 122(+7) / .117(-.0046) / 98400000 / 15.96s (-.63s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 100(-25) / 125
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 72.5km / 95 / 7
Sensor strength: 21 Magnetometric Sensor Strength
Signature radius: 380(-20)

I normally don't reply to these threads as other people are better at game balance than I, but I'm moved to say, in best caps-lock tradition, DON'T **** WITH MY MEGA. Dropping the launchers for utility slots removes some DPS potential, especially in PVE, which is not countered by the ROF vs damage mod. As most people will likely drop a mag stab from the lows the new cap balance from ROF increase may be OK, but I'll let someone with better math figure that out. You're also slashing 20% drone damage by reducing the drone bandwidth which is not reflected in the ROF bonus.

Overall I think this is a big nerf to the mega - if you want to balance out focus on the crappy Hyp and leave my mega alone Evil

Edit: As others have said, if you really want 5 mid slots on the mega, lose one of the high instead of a low and we'll all be happy.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#414 - 2013-04-08 23:55:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Gabriel Karade wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Akirei Scytale wrote:

That isn't similar damage, it is significantly less with the loss of a magstab.

How does the loss of a magstab compare with the gains from a switch to an ROF bonus from the damage bonus?
Losing a heavy drone, while switching to ROF means no change (actually, it's an ever so slight loss in DPS). Losing a Magstab on top of that however, means it's actually a significant loss.

Basically:
7 guns, 5% dmg bonus = 8.75 turrets + 2 mag stabs (+47%) = 12.9
7 guns, 5% RoF = 9.33 turrets + 1 mag stab (+23%) = 11.5

Thanks for confirming, seemed like less DPS after the change but wasn't sure the exact numbers.

Okay, I'm not a propeller head Smile but I don't think the ROF bonus is calculated correctly on that.

I'm really tired and in a hurry, but shouldn't that base = 10.5 turrets?

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Havegun Willtravel
Mobile Alcohol Processing Units
#415 - 2013-04-09 00:02:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Havegun Willtravel
Adriel Malakai wrote:
[

Using 4 Praetor EV-900s, you'd neut 100GJ less cap per 24s (heavy neut cycle time) than the neut. Add that to losing 200+dps to not having heavy drones (or 150+dps for mediums), and that the drones can be killed super easy, and this is a terrible idea. Neut drones are bad.



Using 5 Praetro EV-900's you'd neut the same amount. And not use any of your own cap in the process. Neut drones are not a common choice, but they can work. They become a reasonable choice in a 150 or 175 drone bay with 125 bandwidth <-- Hint Hint Rise.
Lunaleil Fournier
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#416 - 2013-04-09 00:04:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Lunaleil Fournier
I don't see a fleet ship in this current iteration.

Hyperion active armor tanking = non starter for fleet. Overshadowed by the abaddon in seemingly every way for fleets.
Domi - overshadowed by slowcats in fleet, and I think FCs would gravitate to Armageddon anyways.
Mega - I can tell you the mega wasn't sitting on the sidelines because it lacked a midslot.

You really need to consider changing your active armor tank over to the domi and adding an extra highslot and turret on the mega. That gives you a small fleet BS and two fleet BS's that actually make sense.
Ashaton
Veiled Industries.
#417 - 2013-04-09 00:04:52 UTC
So... can we just get rid of the Gallente Faction all together? At least that way people won't waste their time training into these ships.

You want a good hybrid platform? Train Caldari
You want a good drone platform? Train Amarr

gg
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#418 - 2013-04-09 00:07:49 UTC
I suppose the percentage of gallente ships in my hangar will go from 10% to 0% now.
fukier
Gallente Federation
#419 - 2013-04-09 00:09:46 UTC
remember the new bonus for the domi

optimal range and tracking

with that in mind and sentries being fotm

this is the setup i would use for fleets

[Dominix, new]
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Damage Control II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Drone Navigation Computer II
Large Micro Jump Drive
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800

Drone Link Augmentor II
Drone Link Augmentor II
Large 'Solace' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large Energy Transfer Array II
Large Energy Transfer Array II

Large Sentry Damage Augmentor II
Large Anti-Explosive Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I


Ogre II x5
Hammerhead II x5
Hobgoblin II x5
Vespa EC-600 x5
Bouncer II x5
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#420 - 2013-04-09 00:10:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Gabriel Karade
Hi Rise,

Got an even simpler solution for you, for the Megathron, really very very simple but first the numbers…
I’m going to use my stock Ion II setup as a basis (I always use 3% ROF/Large Hybrid damage on my setups)

ArrowStock Ion II setup with two Mag stabs: 913.2 gun dps + 316.8 drones = 1230 total

Change to 7.5% ROF, still switching -1 L/+1 M, still losing -25m3 drone bandwidth

Result

ArrowStock Ion II setup with one Mag stab: 978 gun dps + 253.4 drones = 1231 total


Megathron saved, Threadnought averted

*bows*

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293