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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Caldari

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Author
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#301 - 2013-04-11 01:27:07 UTC
These new tier4 battlecruisers are cool but where are the real battleships? Twisted

But really, now with the faction battlecruisers it's getting pretty cramped in there to balance everything without stomping on the shoes of others...
Ranamar
Nobody in Local
Of Sound Mind
#302 - 2013-04-11 01:38:23 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
Just noticed the drone stats on the raven 50m3 bay 75mbit bandwidth. Is this a typo? I just can't imagine how all that bandwidth could be used up, unless I am missing something, I am not that heavy a drone user so I may be wrong.


Back when I ran L4 missions in a Raven, (... back before the rat AI change, too...) I would keep 1 flight mediums (Hammerhead) and 1 flight lights (Hobgoblin) in my 75 cubic meters of drone bay. It looks like this is codifying that and getting rid of the goofy 2H/2M/1L loadout that was the way to max out bandwidth and drone control limit.
Toshaheri Talvinen
Shadow State
Goonswarm Federation
#303 - 2013-04-11 03:58:47 UTC
Johnson Oramara wrote:
These new tier4 battlecruisers are cool but where are the real battleships? Twisted

But really, now with the faction battlecruisers it's getting pretty cramped in there to balance everything without stomping on the shoes of others...


Yeah, I get the feeling that there isn't going to be such thing as a battleship anymore. Now all they are nothing but slow battlecruisers with slightly higher HP. Whoop dee doo.
I would think that battleships would be much better at tanking, but much worse at hitting smaller things. But then again, that would make too much sense, and take too much time.

- - Tosh
Steve Spooner
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#304 - 2013-04-11 06:23:33 UTC
I wish oh I wish how the Raven's bonuses would be more applicable. I would love to see how being able to hit something with cruise missiles 190 KM away (double max raven targeting range without mods) is ever better than a damage, explosive radius, or RoF bonus.
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#305 - 2013-04-11 09:30:23 UTC
Raven: More CPU
Rokh: Hmmmmm, in this case, resistance nerf a bit harsh
Scorp: Probably as good as it'll get

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction

Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#306 - 2013-04-11 09:33:51 UTC
It would also help giving feedback on the Raven if we knew the current state of thinking on introducing missile "tracking computer" mods and the missile disruptor ewar (please god don't just give a missile disruption effect to tracking disruptors, even via a script).
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#307 - 2013-04-11 11:02:16 UTC
The scorpion seems to be so useless, especially as its cost probably will be increased :(

did u find any soso fit for it?
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#308 - 2013-04-11 11:06:32 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
It would also help giving feedback on the Raven if we knew the current state of thinking on introducing missile "tracking computer" mods and the missile disruptor ewar (please god don't just give a missile disruption effect to tracking disruptors, even via a script).

nobody can balance a ship where you dont know what weapons can it fit , ccp have to revisit raven typhoon after large missile fix

oh and i dont think there should be any missile disruption at all , just like there shouldnt be modules that directly boost missiles,
makeing everything the same is bad

and still i think raven should have better sensor range , it has 75km laughable for a ship and race specialized in long range warfare
Gabriel Karade
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
#309 - 2013-04-11 11:16:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Gabriel Karade
Commander Ted wrote:
Alright, the scorpion blows, and I only have 1 suggestion which is kinda a long shot. Give the scorpion 4 launchers or 4 turrets or a mix and give it 8 high slots.
Then give the Scorpion 5 lows and 6 mids.
Then change the ECM module to be a high slot module.

Then redo the Falcon, Rook, Blackbird, Griffin, and tengu (ecm tengu lol) to also have lots of highslots.

Then the scorp can actually tank itself.
Funnily enough, I believe going way way waaaay back, ECM was a high slot module (before my time, can't find relevant link anymore).

Worth looking into IMO, as ECM still stands out from other EW as being fairly unique, high slot ECM would open some interesting possibilities.

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#310 - 2013-04-11 11:51:05 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
It would also help giving feedback on the Raven if we knew the current state of thinking on introducing missile "tracking computer" mods and the missile disruptor ewar (please god don't just give a missile disruption effect to tracking disruptors, even via a script).

nobody can balance a ship where you dont know what weapons can it fit , ccp have to revisit raven typhoon after large missile fix

oh and i dont think there should be any missile disruption at all , just like there shouldnt be modules that directly boost missiles,
makeing everything the same is bad

and still i think raven should have better sensor range , it has 75km laughable for a ship and race specialized in long range warfare


Once upon a time, no one ever fitted Cruise Missiles on a Raven, only Torps.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#311 - 2013-04-11 13:13:18 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Naomi Knight wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
It would also help giving feedback on the Raven if we knew the current state of thinking on introducing missile "tracking computer" mods and the missile disruptor ewar (please god don't just give a missile disruption effect to tracking disruptors, even via a script).

nobody can balance a ship where you dont know what weapons can it fit , ccp have to revisit raven typhoon after large missile fix

oh and i dont think there should be any missile disruption at all , just like there shouldnt be modules that directly boost missiles,
makeing everything the same is bad

and still i think raven should have better sensor range , it has 75km laughable for a ship and race specialized in long range warfare


Once upon a time, no one ever fitted Cruise Missiles on a Raven, only Torps.

so? how is that relevant at all?
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#312 - 2013-04-11 14:33:42 UTC
I mean be careful about making sweeping statements about what the Raven is "designed" for.

The proposed new Raven will be a moderate improvement as a CML platform, and a huge improvement as a Torp platform. Whatever the Raven was designed for, it is going to be designed as a fast attack torpedo ship. And a very fine thing too.

I can only hope that they enact the proposed changes and migrate them to the Navy Raven as well. An extra slot for a Target Painter? Yes please!

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#313 - 2013-04-11 15:01:32 UTC
Malcanis wrote:

The proposed new Raven will be a moderate improvement as a CML platform, and a huge improvement as a Torp platform. Whatever the Raven was designed for, it is going to be designed as a fast attack torpedo ship. And a very fine thing too.


When trying to improve the Raven, I always ask myself "At what job is it the best battleship ?".

And for now, all I could answer was "The Raven is always outclassed by at the very least one battleship, if not two."

It is indeed a huge improvement as a Torp platform. Considering how ****** it was, a huge improvement brings it to a "Almost good" level.
Wrayeth
Inexorable Retribution
#314 - 2013-04-11 15:23:49 UTC
FINALLY!

I have been waiting for the raven to gain another midslot since sometime in 2005 (when -cough- I suggested it multiple times; albeit some of my other ideas were less than stellar). I also like the way it's gaining mobility.

For the scorp, the 7th low is definitely going to be a game-changer, making it either much more survivable or better able to jam, depending on how one wishes to fit it.

Plekto
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#315 - 2013-04-11 16:01:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Plekto
I've been running the numbers on the Raven vs the Typhoon and come to the conclusion that the Typhoon is a better version of the Raven?

Typhoon:
Slots: 7/5/7 (this is huge - those lows mean way more BCS or Power relays)
HP: 6500/6000/6000
Weapons: 6 Launchers
Bonuses: 5% ROF/5% explosion velocity (even more damage)
Cap: 5400
Drone: 100/100

Raven:
Slots: 7/7/5
HP:7000/5800/6400
Weapons: 6 Launchers
Bonuses: 5% ROF/10% Velocity
Cap: 5500
Drone: 50/75 (well at least it can still use 5 mediums still)

My question to the DEV is what will set the Raven apart from the Typhoon as a special role/bonus, given that it's the Caldari's main missile boat? To be honest, we don't need extra range for cruise missiles - they already easily are longer than the thing can possibly target. 200KM almost. Given the flight time, missiles aren't really, um... sniper weapons.

Please give the Raven some sort of bonus that makes it different in a meaningful way. I'd suggest dropping the Cruise Missile bonuses and making it a dedicated torpedo boat that makes torpedos a special option for it (say a 15% velocity mod to give it enough range to do missions)

Torpedos have no love as it is and they are relegated to station and bubble bashing. Their range even with mods is just barely over 30K, making them useless for missions as rats sit at 45km, typically (at least the larger ones that drones can't clear by themselves)

Think about it not by ship, but by weapon type for a minute.
- If you want to use Cruise Missiles, the choice is clear. Grab the Typhoon. Less range (big deal - well over 100KM anyways), way more damage, able to hit smaller targets better. Add precision cruises and you smack destroyers and larger for full damage without rigs? Add t2 rigs on top, and it gets the sig down to nearly removing the sig penalty for even frigates. We're talking Precision cruises with an explosion radius of almost 50 meters. Ouch.

I love this change, mind you. It makes the Typhoon shine in so many ways in its new role.

- If you want torps, you still chose the Typhoon. The Raven's range isn't enough to allow for meaningful mission or complex running, and the low slots on the Typhoon mean you can put two more BCS on a pure damage fit.

The Raven shines in no way in its new role by comparison. It's simply out-classed by the Typhoon. Which is why putting it as the default Torpedo ship/role would at least give it a place to shine.
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#316 - 2013-04-11 16:03:00 UTC
Spugg Galdon wrote:
Raven:

Very sad to see the loss of the second utility high. I find it extremely useful but I may be in the minority in this opinion. I would have prefered losing the 5th low slot for a mid with a CPU/PG boost so that you don't HAVE to fit a fitting mod.


o_O

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.

Grunnax Aurelius
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#317 - 2013-04-11 16:13:49 UTC
Plekto wrote:
I've been running the numbers on the Raven vs the Typhoon and come to the conclusion that the Typhoon is a better version of the Raven?

Typhoon:
Slots: 7/5/7 (this is huge - those lows mean way more BCS or Power relays)
HP: 6500/6000/6000
Weapons: 6 Launchers
Bonuses: 5% ROF/5% explosion velocity (even more damage)
Cap: 5400
Drone: 100/100

Raven:
Slots: 7/7/5
HP:7000/5800/6400
Weapons: 6 Launchers
Bonuses: 5% ROF/10% Velocity
Cap: 5500
Drone: 50/75 (well at least it can still use 5 mediums still)

My question to the DEV is what will set the Raven apart from the Typhoon as a special role/bonus, given that it's the Caldari's main missile boat? To be honest, we don't need extra range for cruise missiles - they already easily are longer than the thing can possibly target. 200KM almost. Given the flight time, missiles aren't really, um... sniper weapons.

Please give the Raven some sort of bonus that makes it different in a meaningful way. I'd suggest dropping the Cruise Missile bonuses and making it a dedicated torpedo boat that makes torpedos a special option for it (say a 15% velocity mod to give it enough range to do missions)

Torpedos have no love as it is and they are relegated to station and bubble bashing. Their range even with mods is just barely over 30K, making them useless for missions as rats sit at 45km, typically (at least the larger ones that drones can't clear by themselves)


If you make the Raven a dedicated Torpedo boat its nothing but a shiney Typhoon and then you have two ships the exact same. Caldari is a ranged kitting missile race and should be treated as such.

Caldari as you know are the most advanced race when it comes to Shield and Missile systems, now what i find odd is that the Typhoon has a skill bonus that affects the way damage is applied by missiles, when this would clearly be a Caldari thing. I suggest giving the Typhoon a 5% bonus to Target Painter effectiveness per level or 5% bonus to Stasis Webifier propultion jam strength per level as that is the Minmatar's area of expertise, it will make taking on Battlecruisers easier than having a Explosion Velocity bonus.

This is the Raven and the Typhoon, the Raven is supposed to be a Kitting Missile Ship, and the Typhoon a Brawling Missile Ship.

Raven
Caldari Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+5% bonus to Cruise and Torpedo Launcher rate of fire
+10% bonus to Cruise Missile Torpedo Velocity
Slot layout: 7H, 7M, 5L; 0 turrets , 6 launchers

Typhoon
Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+5% to Cruise and Torpedo launcher rate of fire
+5% Cruise Missile and Torpedo explosion velocity
Slot layout: 7H, 5M, 7L; 5 turrets , 6 launchers

What I propose is that the Raven replaces its +10% bonus to Cruise Missile Torpedo Velocity per level, for the +5% Cruise Missile and Torpedo explosion velocity per level. This would notion that the Raven should be Cruise Missile fitted and apply its damage easier as well as the Typhoon. CCP Rise did confirm that Cruise Missiles are getting a revamp and increased damage so Cruise Missiles wont be a bad choice anymore making this change extremely relevant and being a Kitting designed ship it should notion fitting Cruise Missiles. Also it should be given 1 more Launcher slot to help compensate for damage, but this eaxtra launcher point will depend on the changes to Cruise Missiles.
The Typhoon replaces its +5% Cruise Missile and Torpedo explosion velocity per level with either a 5% bonus to Target Painter effectiveness per level or a 5% bonus to Stasis Webifier effectiveness per level. Both these bonuses help Torpedo's on applying easier damage to target. I would personally like a Target Painter bonus but thats just me.

These changes bring both ships into a really nice category and don't conflict with each other as much in terms of arguments of one being better than the other.

CCP Rise please take this into consideration, they are not game breaking changes, they just small changes that bring both ships into line with each other with the defining feature of one being a brawling torpedo boat and one being a kitting cruise missile boat.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread

Plekto
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#318 - 2013-04-11 16:27:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Plekto
I added a weapon comparison to my original post.

The Typhoon is a great ship. Let it do missiles. That explosion velocity is a massive game-changer. It's not about RANGE. It's about being able to stick 3 rigs on it and smack frigates for nearly full damage with precision cruises. That's a very relevant change.

But what does the Raven get?
It clearly should be the torpedo boat. Since it doesn't have the extra lows for that third BCS any more, it has to switch from Cruises to another role (as in pure damage, the Typhoon will always out-slot it in damage mods).

I suggest the following:
Raven
Caldari Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+7.5% Torpedo Launcher rate of fire (to compensate for the loss of the BCS)
+20% bonus to Torpedo Velocity (give it range to reach the target without rigs)
Slot layout: 7H, 7M, 5L; 0 turrets , 6 launchers

Give it a defined role like this and it'll be a great ship. Note that sig and the ability to hit only large targets effectively remains unchanged. This just gives it comparable DPS to before and makes it able to hit bigger targets at an effective range.
Shingorash
Sons of Luminaire
#319 - 2013-04-11 16:45:03 UTC
Wouldnt it make more sense to remote both the current bonus' on the Raven and replace them with an Explosion Velocity and a Explosion Radius bonus?

7 Mid slots is still not enough really for a ship using torps to effectively fit a tank and mods to help it do damage. At least with the bonus' above the DPS it does will be more likely to actually do something.

The paper DPS on torps is great but at present the ship doesnt even do half that torp damage against small targets unless they have 2 painters and 2 webs on them.

Thats the type of bonus I would like to see, if its a dedicated missile platform it should have bonus' to reflect that.
Plekto
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#320 - 2013-04-11 17:19:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Plekto
It gets even more silly when I looked at a level 5 typhoon with cruises vs a bigger ship like a destroyer.

It hits you for so much damage that if you're not already hitting warp, the second volley is only a bit over six seconds behind. (4BCS plus 2 launcher speed rigs on overload). You simply pop destroyers like candy.

The Raven has not enough lows now to be a real dedicated missile boat any more, and the drones are so low that it can't augment the missing torpedo damage with drones vs large targets, either.

Basically the Raven has been reduced to an EWAR platform. Ie - no defined role.

Now, I don't want to nerf the Typhoon. I hate nerfs. But the logical choice if the Typhoon is the de-facto Cruise Missile ship in the game, is to give the Torpedo role somehow to the Raven. That I could live with.

Raven
Caldari Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+7.5% Torpedo Launcher rate of fire (to compensate for the loss of the BCS)
+7.5% bonus to Explosion velocity (damage is fine, it heeds to hit faster targets since torps are slow)
Slot layout: 7H, 7M, 5L; 0 turrets , 6 launchers

I think the DEVs figured the Raven would be a good shield ship. But they forgot that the basis of a shield ship is the low slot modules, as if the mids are filled with shields, you must put damage in lows. If you put even one damage or PVP related mod (painter or MWD of similart) in mid, you must put power relay modules in low to augment shields.

Alternatively:
Raven
Caldari Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+7.5% Cruise Missile and Torpedo Launcher rate of fire
+7.5% bonus to targeting speed/scan resolution (however it's managed via bonuses)
Slot layout: 7H, 7M, 5L; 0 turrets , 6 launchers

That also would work as it would now be a dedicated rapid launch platform. If they want it to be an EWAR type ship, give it EWAR type targeting bonuses. No damage mods like the Min ships, but super fast lock time. This would make the Raven a perfect cloaked missile boat as well. (ie - give it a role)

EDIT - Actually I like this better.