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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Caldari

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SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#241 - 2013-04-10 12:09:41 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Everybody be mad about the Raven, it looks really good.

Nano Ravens look like big PODLA Drakes now, and yes they are better than the phoons because the bonuses mean you apply damage better, the extra mids mean you can fit webs for countertackle and damage application as well.


You have a battleship that can shoot at 189km with supposedly, somewhat close-range missiles (being high-DPS Fury Missiles), with a massive 46k EHP (the PODLA Drake has 48k EHP).

Yes, the current proposed changes for the Raven are a step in the right direction. And yes, large missiles are getting rebalanced. Sad thing is, we can't really judge a ship without knowing what his weapon system is going to be.

Also, you have to compare it to its main counterpart, ie the other missile spewing battleship that is the Typhoon.

A shield Raven being slower than an armor Typhoon is strange.

For any kind of close-range stuff, the Typhoon will always be superior.

For any kind of long-range stuff, well, cruise missiles are useless and this PODLA Raven will get ownd by any kind of battleship, considering the very low EHP / very high signature / not very high speed combo.

Quote:
It wouldn't actually hurt anyone if torpedo ranges (unbuffed) would get increases to 40 or 50km. They are battleship sized weapons and I can hurt people with blasters and Null L at 45km with my Rokh and blasters are short range.
I make an educated guess and say that people wouldn't complain much if torpedos also would be able to make some battlecruiser pilots day misrerable.

On a sidenote I think the game wouldn't break if all battleships had stronger sensor resolutions. They should be somewhere between 150 and 180mm and not at those capital ship ones.


Yes indeed.
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#242 - 2013-04-10 12:10:37 UTC
SMT008 wrote:
...A range-buff (A buff to Torps VELOCITY, not flight time, please) to Torps probably wouldn't fix torps altogether, but it would bring them back in the "Workable" zone. Not only that but it would allow Ravens to get rid of the velocity bonus (No one needs cruise missiles hitting at 200km) in order to get a damage application bonus that would help tremendously the weapon system. Also, you wouldn't need 3 support medslots in order to apply most of your DPS and that would help with your tank, which is very low for a battleship...
Someone gets it!
Danny John-Peter
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#243 - 2013-04-10 12:26:21 UTC
SMT008 wrote:
[quote=Danny John-Peter]
You have a battleship that can shoot at 189km with supposedly, somewhat close-range missiles (being high-DPS Fury Missiles), with a massive 46k EHP (the PODLA Drake has 48k EHP).


I dont think EHP is really the issue on a kiting fit like that, assuming they do something decent with BS sized missiles, which they have said they are going to buff, it should be a fairly amusing kiting platform.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#244 - 2013-04-10 12:27:35 UTC
Giving torps additional base range would make the Raven's missile velocity bonus actually quite useful, as it would give it a considerable advantage in damage projection over the Typhoon. And I'm expecting cruise to lose range in exchange for damage, which could also make the velocity bonus quite useful for cruise too. So, keep the missile velocity bonus, but change cruise and torps so the Raven can make effective use of it, giving it damage projection abilities that the Typhoon lacks.
Turelus
Utassi Security
#245 - 2013-04-10 12:42:27 UTC
Are these missile changes going to be released in Odyssey?

Because seriously if this is "Raven will be good with missile changes, but you don't get them for another six months" then who even cares about the changes at this point?
Also the missile changes are going to have to be something pretty spectacular if they're going to make a +10% bonus to Cruise Missile Torpedo Velocity actually a useful bonus!

Turelus CEO Utassi Security

Monasucks
BLACK SQUADRON.
Goonswarm Federation
#246 - 2013-04-10 12:59:35 UTC
yarrr that scorpion boost
but let the navy scorp have jamm bonuses as well Big smile

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Buhhdust Princess
Mind Games.
Suddenly Spaceships.
#247 - 2013-04-10 13:02:25 UTC
Buhhdust Princess wrote:


Scorpion - Actually disappointed, I wanted to see a bit of a slot change, Preferably 5 High, 8 Mid, 5 Low. Allows for the pilot to choose between Full utility scorpion, with an armour tank/smartbombs etc , or a 4x Torp 1x Neut scorpion, with shield tank, 1 ECM and a decent enough amount of damage to actually warrant it in a solo/dual combo. I think this is a BIG flaw in the Scorp that needs to be addressed.


Can I just say, It's rare that CCP actually listens, so I'd like to say thank you CCP Rise and team, for actually listening to a sensible suggestion and acting on it (With the Cal and Gal BS'). I'm glad you approve ^^
-Buhhd
StrongSmartSexy
Phenix Revolution
#248 - 2013-04-10 13:19:05 UTC  |  Edited by: StrongSmartSexy
SMT008 wrote:
Also, you wouldn't need 3 support medslots in order to apply most of your DPS and that would help with your tank, which is very low for a battleship...

This.
Thankfully, the need for target painters on a raven for use against other battleships is no longer a necessity (except for T2 rage torps) with the recent change allowing torps to benefit from explosion reduction modules, skills, implants and boosters.
Main problem is enemy battleships don't even need MWD speeds to speed tank a significant amount of damage from torps.

And T2 rage torpedoes have been getting progressively worse in EVE:
Pre-Quantum Rise, they had a reasonable explosion radius of 540m.
After QR, radius was buffed to a whopping 650m in exchange for only 6.67% more damage.
Just recently, they were further buffed to 774m but at least now benefit from explosion reduction - however Rage torps have worse explosion velocity and higher damage reduction factor than Tech 1.

There's just no incentive to use Rage torpedoes over T1 or faction torps, as you are forced to give up multiple mid slots for target painter & webs and the ridiculous 774m explosion radius means that their use assumes you MUST already have guided missile precision to V or have strong crash boosters or multiple Rigor Catalyst rigs.
Verlaine Glariant
FW Scuad
#249 - 2013-04-10 13:25:09 UTC
Missile systems need an overhaul.

Otherwise every missile boats in the game will continue to be bad.

www.amphysvena.org

Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#250 - 2013-04-10 13:25:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Mike Whiite
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Everybody be mad about the Raven, it looks really good.

Nano Ravens look like big PODLA Drakes now, and yes they are better than the phoons because the bonuses mean you apply damage better, the extra mids mean you can fit webs for countertackle and damage application as well.

[NEW Raven, basically nanoravens]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800
Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Cruise Missile
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Large Core Defense Field Extender I


Warrior II x5
Valkyrie II x5

A couple of these with an Anti-Support Zealot and a 2 Web/1TP Huginn would be really good.


(Also, BS Missiles ARE GETTING REBALANCED, good god people)



might be me but if you have proper missile skills that bonus you talk about is completly irrelivant with this fit.

Fury missiles hit up to 125km with out the bonus, you can't lock anything at that range, aside from the point your opponent died of old age when that cruise finaly reaches his target.

This raven with the current missile stats is absolutly useless as a cruise platform.
Danny John-Peter
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#251 - 2013-04-10 13:37:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Danny John-Peter
Mike Whiite wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Everybody be mad about the Raven, it looks really good.

Nano Ravens look like big PODLA Drakes now, and yes they are better than the phoons because the bonuses mean you apply damage better, the extra mids mean you can fit webs for countertackle and damage application as well.

[NEW Raven, basically nanoravens]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800
Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Cruise Missile
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Large Core Defense Field Extender I


Warrior II x5
Valkyrie II x5

A couple of these with an Anti-Support Zealot and a 2 Web/1TP Huginn would be really good.


(Also, BS Missiles ARE GETTING REBALANCED, good god people)



might be me but if you have proper missile skills that bonus you talk about is completly irrelivant with this fit.

Fury missiles hit up to 125km with out the bonus, you can't lock anything at that range, aside from the point your opanent died of old age when that cruise finaly reaches his target.

This raven with the current missile stats is absolutly useless as a cruise platform.


Yes, I got confused with the bonuses I must admit, they arent really relevant, still, its a fairly good platform for this.
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#252 - 2013-04-10 14:11:07 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Yes, I got confused with the bonuses I must admit, they arent really relevant, still, its a fairly good platform for this.


Well the Podla Drake had several things this ship hasn't resistance and damage aplication.

If you run in a Oracle (top 20 says they are used now and then) you're dead, the EM hole is massive.
it also needs a cap boosrter for the MWD, Polda Drake didn't need those either.
leaving you with 2 shield mods and 2 riggs for defence, where the Podla Drake also has 25% resistance, much less need for flare's and other mods to aply damage.

Now try and make a Nano version of the Typhoon and see what happens, use those exessive low slots for a stab or 2 and you might even able to keep that MWD runing when in Scamble range.

Better damage projection, much lower sig. faster, more agile. better scan resolution, bigger drone bay, 4 turret hardpoints.


it has less cpu and shield. If Gypsio III is right about what is going to happen things wioll look diferent but at this point there is little use for that Raven

SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#253 - 2013-04-10 14:13:57 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:

I dont think EHP is really the issue on a kiting fit like that, assuming they do something decent with BS sized missiles, which they have said they are going to buff, it should be a fairly amusing kiting platform.


True, I really like the "PODLA Raven" concept and I think it will become viable-ish in the future.

Just pointing out the weird things like missiles that you can throw at 303km or 46k EHP on a battleship, considering the supposedly weaker Drake gets a better EHP.

Quote:
Missile systems need an overhaul.

Otherwise every missile boats in the game will continue to be bad.


Nah, missile systems are mostly alright. There are two problems with them. First, BS-sized missiles. Second, missile speed.

Buff missile speed, nerf missile flight time. It's quite easy, really.
Danny John-Peter
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#254 - 2013-04-10 14:17:32 UTC
Mike Whiite wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Yes, I got confused with the bonuses I must admit, they arent really relevant, still, its a fairly good platform for this.


Now try and make a Nano version of the Typhoon and see what happens, use those exessive low slots for a stab or 2 and you might even able to keep that MWD runing when in Scamble range.




I dont think you understand how Scrams work.

Also, yes it gets ****** by Oracles, so do Drakes.

And the phoon cant do it because it doesnt have the mids for a Tank + Prop + Injector + two webs.
BiggestT
Konvict Cartel
The Serenity Syndicate
#255 - 2013-04-10 14:27:23 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Updated OP to reflect a couple small changes based on player feedback!

Raven getting a slight bump to its base shield HP.

Scorpion is going to lose a high slot and gain a low slot.


Good stuff.

But.. the rokh?

You stated you would release a detailed explanation thread about this seemingly pointless nerf to a non-OP ship that no-one was expecting. We'd like to see it soon please.

But please:

-Don't use large fleets and rr as a common denominator for all pvp (hint: rr rokh gangs are not a thing and never will be mmkay).

-And don't lump it together with the abbadon, that thing is much more viable and versatile than the rokh ever was, despite their analagous bonuses.
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#256 - 2013-04-10 14:33:59 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:

And the phoon cant do it because it doesnt have the mids for a Tank + Prop + Injector + two webs.


Quote:
[Typhoon, New Setup 1]
Damage Control II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Signal Amplifier II

Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800
Warp Disruptor II

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Large Core Defense Field Extender I


Hammerhead II x5


There you go.

Yes, you don't have webs. The Raven (and this Typhoon version) isn't designed to fly alone, it's supposed to fly along with Huginns who will do the webbing thing.

This Typhoon is actually somewhat better at Cruise-Kiting than the Raven.

It's faster, has better capstability, more tank, locks faster and farther (thanks to the spare lowslots, you can fit a DC and a signal amplifier).

This is kinda strange. The Typhoon, not bonused for range, is doing a better job at range than the Raven.

Not only that, but at close-range, it's also doing a better job than the Raven by being tougher and applying its DPS easily.

I don't think the Typhoon needs to be nerfed. If anything, the Raven should get some of the boosts we discussed earlier, ie boosts to scan res, shields, speed, agility or even damage with a 7th launcher, considering Caldari is the true missile race.
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#257 - 2013-04-10 14:33:59 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Mike Whiite wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Yes, I got confused with the bonuses I must admit, they arent really relevant, still, its a fairly good platform for this.


Now try and make a Nano version of the Typhoon and see what happens, use those exessive low slots for a stab or 2 and you might even able to keep that MWD runing when in Scamble range.




I dont think you understand how Scrams work.

Also, yes it gets ****** by Oracles, so do Drakes.

And the phoon cant do it because it doesnt have the mids for a Tank + Prop + Injector + two webs.



I might not understand how stabs work, I do understand how scarmble works.

Drake get quite easy to 50% EM resistance, you have 25%

That phoon can dedicate more riggs to it´s tank and doesn´t need two webs.

Danny John-Peter
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#258 - 2013-04-10 14:37:07 UTC
Mike Whiite wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Mike Whiite wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Yes, I got confused with the bonuses I must admit, they arent really relevant, still, its a fairly good platform for this.


Now try and make a Nano version of the Typhoon and see what happens, use those exessive low slots for a stab or 2 and you might even able to keep that MWD runing when in Scamble range.




I dont think you understand how Scrams work.

Also, yes it gets ****** by Oracles, so do Drakes.

And the phoon cant do it because it doesnt have the mids for a Tank + Prop + Injector + two webs.



I might not understand how stabs work, I do understand how scarmble works.

Drake get quite easy to 50% EM resistance, you have 25%

That phoon can dedicate more riggs to it´s tank and doesn´t need two webs.



Normal PODLA drakes have far lower resists than that actually.

And tank is not in any way related to the requirement for webs.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#259 - 2013-04-10 14:57:46 UTC
what about this raven:
Raven:

The (cavalry)Raven is becoming the Caldari attack battleship. Its bonuses were a natural fit already, and although its giving up some base hitpoints, the substantial increase to speed and added mid should open up plenty of new opportunities for Caldari missile pilots without hurting anyone who was already happy using it.

Its also gaining power grid and CPU output so that torp focused fits and fits that want to use propulsion mods are more easily accessible. Keep in mind that we will be taking a more detailed look at battleship sized missile systems in the near future.

Caldari Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+5% bonus to Cruise and Torpedo Launcher rate of fire
+10% bonus to Cruise Missile Torpedo Velocity

Slot layout: 7H(-1), 7M(+1), 5L; 0 turrets , 6 launchers
Fittings: 11000 PWG(+1500), 750(+50) CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7500 /6000(-641) / 6000(-641)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / recharge per second) : 5500(+187.5) / 1160s / 4.74
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 115(+21) / .12(-.008) / 99300000 / 16.52s (-1.1s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(-25) / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 90km(+15) / 105(+20) / 7
Sensor strength: 22 Gravimetric
Signature radius: 380(-90)


just compare it to the tempest same role attack bs:
Tempest:

Updated based on feedback to make the Tempest Minmatar's second attack battleship. This keeps its sig down, lowers its mass slightly, at the cost of lower hp.

Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret rate of fire
+5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret damage

Slot layout: 8H, 5M, 6L; 6 turrets , 4 launchers
Fittings: 16000 PWG(+500), 550 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7000(+46) / 7300(+1089) / 6800(+259)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 5400(+87.5) / 1154s / 4.68
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 120 / .12 / 101050000(-2250000) / 16.81s(-.37s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 75 / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 67.5km(+5k) / 100 / 7
Sensor strength: 20 Ladar Sensor Strength(+1)
Signature radius: 360(+20)

or the typhoon:

Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+5% to Cruise and Torpedo launcher rate of fire
+5% Cruise Missile and Torpedo explosion velocity (replaces large projectile rate of fire)

Slot layout: 7H(-1), 5M(+1), 7L; 5 turrets , 6 launchers(+1)
Fittings: 12500 PWG, 640 CPU(+40)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6500(+289) / 6000(+531) / 6000(-211)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 5400(+400) / 1087s / 4.97 (+.3)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 130 / .11(-.006) / 103600000(-2000000) / 15.8s(-1.16s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 100(-125) / 100(-75)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 65km(+5k) / 115 / 7
Sensor strength: 19 Ladar Sensor Strength(+1)
Signature radius: 330(+10)

Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#260 - 2013-04-10 15:14:20 UTC
or scorp:
Scorpion:

The Scorpion, while being an oddity in the battleship line up, seems fairly happy. We have adjusted its hitpoints slightly, so they would roughly match the attack set, but otherwise there are no changes.

UPDATE: Based on player feedback we are going to let the Scorpion trade one of its high slots for another low slot.

Caldari Battleship Skill Bonuses:
25%(+10%) bonus to ECM Target Jammer strength
25% bonus to ECM Target Jammer optimal and falloff range
25% bonus to ECM Burst range

Slot layout: 5H(-1), 8M, 5L(+1); 4 turrets , 4 launchers
Fittings: 9000 PWG, 750 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6500(-141) / 6500(+1000) / 6000(+531)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / recharge per second) : 5500(+187.5) / 1087s / 5.06
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 94 / .116 / 103600000 / 16.66s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 75 / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 90km / 110 / 7
Sensor strength: 24 Gravimetric
Signature radius: 440(-40)

or make it multispectral(non racial) jammers only:
Caldari Battleship Skill Bonuses:
35% bonus to ECM Multispectral Target Jammer strength ( no bonus for racials :)
50% bonus to ECM Multispectral Target Jammer optimal and falloff range
25% bonus to ECM Burst range

this would give t2 multispectral with lvl5 skill 2*t2 signal dis amplifiers around 10 jamm strength with 120km opt +112km falloff
compared it to black bird with racials 9,4 jamm strength with 84km opt+ 78km falloff