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carebears are scaring off noobs with boredom.

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#161 - 2013-04-08 02:45:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Ace Uoweme wrote:
It's a tradition in gaming to let gamers play as they want. It's a very Libertarian concept so cherished.

If they want to play PvE, their choice. If they want to PvP, their choice.

It isn't for YOU to decide.
…and if you had actually read the post you were responding to, you would have noticed that none of what you said was relevant: It's not you mining or running missions that this is about, it's you telling newbies that they can't do anything except mine or run missions and choking their ability to have a good time in this video game that this thread is about. It's not about what they do — it's about what they teach; it's about them removing your precious choice from the new players.

Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
What makes you think you know what 1000's of different individuals want?
Good thing I never claimed anything of the kind, then.

Quote:
Are you going to honestly argue that between a two year old and a two week old... the two week old has the advantage?
Of course. It's not like it's hard to find empirical evidence for it.
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#162 - 2013-04-08 02:50:53 UTC
Tippia wrote:


Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
What makes you think you know what 1000's of different individuals want?
Good thing I never claimed anything of the kind, then..
You have done it consistently through this threat. Saying new players don't know what they want.

How did you arrive at that conclusion?
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#163 - 2013-04-08 02:51:24 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Ace Uoweme wrote:

Notice training isn't an issue, unless they want to brag about it to show THEY have the skills (like the thread earlier claiming all shuttles can zip through without getting hit, then claiming needing Evasive Manuevuering IV, when confronted).

some morons don't train a x2 core skill to level three/four early on because highsec bads/npc corp chat tells them ~perfect yield/refine~ is a thing that somehow matters and they lack the critical thinking abilities to examine what they'll actually need to succeed in this game

see op for more information on this topical issue


If they're going to be a miner, and want to succeed at it, you bet they'll be getting those skills up.

It's not skills YOU think are important, it is to dedicated miners. That Roqual pilot isn't concerned about roaming with 4bil ISK implants, anyway.

And frankly, none of your business to dictate.

This was a problem in WoW for so long, Blizzard just chucked the talent trees and made changing talents as simple as a 45 silver change on the fly now, because all the infighting about "proper" talents. It got to be ridiculous. It brought in the stupid stuff like Gearscore before the change, and people promoting builds ONLY for end-game. So that new player needing leveling talent advice couldn't even find it, as the excuse was, the only thing that mattered was end-game.

Don't bring that nonsense here. It never ends well.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#164 - 2013-04-08 02:52:56 UTC
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Tippia wrote:


Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
What makes you think you know what 1000's of different individuals want?
Good thing I never claimed anything of the kind, then..
You have done it consistently through this threat. Saying new players don't know what they want.

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

by definition new players do not know what they want because in eve online, a fiendishly complex game, they do not know enough to make an informed choice

perhaps you should think a little harder next time
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#165 - 2013-04-08 02:55:09 UTC  |  Edited by: EvilweaselSA
or we could continue to take discredited advice about what 0.0 players can do from a guy who thought that one of goonswarm's temporary setbacks on our path to galactic domination at the hands of someone we rent into tiny bloody pieces mostly because they followed his advice would be a hell of a burn

either is good
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#166 - 2013-04-08 02:55:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
You have done it consistently through this threat. Saying new players don't know what they want.
So in other words, I haven't made any claim to “know what 1000's of different individuals want”. Good, then we've cleared that up and you can stop claiming such nonsense.

Quote:
How did you arrive at that conclusion?
Because of this and the popularity of this, oh, and the necessity for changes such as this and this.
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#167 - 2013-04-08 02:56:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Bi-Mi Lansatha
EvilweaselSA wrote:


by definition new players do not know what they want because in eve online, a fiendishly complex game, they do not know enough to make an informed choice

perhaps you should think a little harder next time
So you know what all of the new players want.

What is it?

Is this by your definition?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#168 - 2013-04-08 02:59:27 UTC
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
So you know what all of the new players want.
Good thing that he never made any such claim either.
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#169 - 2013-04-08 02:59:33 UTC
Tippia wrote:
…and if you had actually read the post you were responding to, you would have noticed that none of what you said was relevant


What you problem is -- again and again and again -- you're not reading.

Did I mention anything about what new players will be doing?

No.

YOU are trying to dictate that, by drawing conclusions -- again and again and again -- that is in YOUR mind. Not what has even been stated!

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#170 - 2013-04-08 03:00:05 UTC
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
EvilweaselSA wrote:


by definition new players do not know what they want because in eve online, a fiendishly complex game, they do not know enough to make an informed choice

perhaps you should think a little harder next time
So you know what all of the new players want.

What is it?

Is this by your definition?


you've been having a lot of trouble with the concepts here so we're going to walk before we run

you understand now that a new player will, by definition (they are new) lack the knowledge to make informed choices about what they want to do in eve, correct

or do you choose to assert they actually know how everything works and can make an informed choice themselves
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#171 - 2013-04-08 03:02:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Did I mention anything about what new players will be doing?
Yes.

Specifically, you said “It's a tradition in gaming to let gamers play as they want. It's a very Libertarian concept so cherished.
If they want to play PvE, their choice. If they want to PvP, their choice.”

You're talking about activities — stuff people do — stuff that's not relevant to the topic at hand, which is what carebear corps teach new players, and how these teachings are insufficient for the needs of new players when it comes to making an informed choice about the game.
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#172 - 2013-04-08 03:03:58 UTC
EvilweaselSA wrote:
by definition new players do not know what they want because in eve online, a fiendishly complex game, they do not know enough to make an informed choice

perhaps you should think a little harder next time


It's not complex. Players want to promote it as some thinking game. But I can guarantee you there's more Johnny on the spot decisions to do in Starcraft, than EvE (and that IS an eSport and been so for over 10 years now).

And if you're into babying players to do this or that now...who is the carebear now?

They will make mistakes. But to learn you have too make mistakes.

Learning 101.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#173 - 2013-04-08 03:04:27 UTC
Tippia wrote:
...new players don't know what htey want...
Did you write this?
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#174 - 2013-04-08 03:05:42 UTC
EvilweaselSA wrote:


you've been having a lot of trouble with the concepts here so we're going to walk before we run

you understand now that a new player will, by definition (they are new) lack the knowledge to make informed choices about what they want to do in eve, correct

or do you choose to assert they actually know how everything works and can make an informed choice themselves
Where did you get this definition that states consumers by products without know what they want?
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#175 - 2013-04-08 03:06:18 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Specifically, you said “It's a tradition in gaming to let gamers play as they want.


Yep.

And that's not telling to be ABC, as you are claiming.

Learn the difference what choice IS.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#176 - 2013-04-08 03:08:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Ace Uoweme wrote:
And if you're into babying players to do this or that now...who is the carebear now?
The carebears, since they are the ones doing exactly that. It's not a good thing.

Quote:
They will make mistakes. But to learn you have too make mistakes.

Learning 101.
…and the problem is that they don't get the chance to do so when they pick a corp that can't provide the opportunity for those mistakes or the feedback to learn from them.

Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Did you write this?
Yes. What I didn't write was any kind of claim that I know what people want, which, no matter how much you try to twist it, is not the same thing so you can stop with your strawman right there.

Ace Uoweme wrote:
And that's not telling to be ABC
…which means that it has nothing to do with the topic at hand, viz. that carebear corps are unable to provide newbies with the knowledge they need to make an informed choice.
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#177 - 2013-04-08 03:11:14 UTC
EvilweaselSA wrote:

you've been having a lot of trouble with the concepts here so we're going to walk before we run

you understand now that a new player will, by definition (they are new) lack the knowledge to make informed choices about what they want to do in eve, correct

or do you choose to assert they actually know how everything works and can make an informed choice themselves


And you aren't helping them by holding their hand, wiping their rear, and telling them what's a "good boy" is in EvE...by dictating your idea of what is proper to YOU.

Read the WoW analogy above for a clue.

Devs will have to save a game from the gamers themselves, as their ePeens and egos get too far carried away.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#178 - 2013-04-08 03:12:35 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
If they're going to be a miner, and want to succeed at it, you bet they'll be getting those skills up.

like mechanics and evasive maneuvering and hull upgrades and spaceship command and shield skills so they don't get killed, right

after all prioritising 'perfect yield' over 'not getting killed' would be completely idiotic, right

but what do the wise leaders of npc corp chat/highsec mining corps recommend

i saw a newbie handed a hulk fit with three cargo expanders and told to train into it
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#179 - 2013-04-08 03:12:49 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
And you aren't helping them by holding their hand, wiping their rear, and telling them what's a "good boy" is in EvE...by dictating your idea of what is proper to YOU.
…and that's why the carebear corp teachings are so bad for them.
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#180 - 2013-04-08 03:13:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Bi-Mi Lansatha
Tippia wrote:
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Did you write this?
Yes. What I didn't write was any kind of claim that I know what people want, which, no matter how much you try to twist it, is not the same thing so you can stop with your strawman right there.

Big smile You claim to know that new players didn't know what they want. 1000s of players.

You can't know that . You can guess than many don't know and many do, but you can know their motivations.