EVE General Discussion

There is no pvp off button so your argument is invalid...

As for "i dont care if you keep being boring just dont teach new players"...whats boring to you might not be boring to others...so whose showing their ignorance now?

This is the right attitude. The good news in this situation is that we still have some tools left to combat it. When you identify one of these dangerous carebear corps, you should do a service to the community and destroy it. CCP has given us wardecs, AWOXing, and suicide ganking to help us deal with these people. Do it well and you may even get them to ragequit.

…and I never said you should. You're confusing two completely different issues.

One is the ignoramus corps, which are unable to teach new players about the game because they are themselves too unfamiliar with it. The other is people who preach the “don't do X until you have Y” and “all to V” mantras. The latter group is the one that need to have a sock implanted in their tranchea.

The same goes for you. I never said any of that is grief play — I said that those are items that carbear corps habitually fail to teach their members properly. And no, again, it's not a matter of opinion but of facts and mechanics, and about “truths” that have been proven false over and over again throughout the history of the game, e.g. that low is permacamped, or that there is no place for the little guy or the newbie in null.

As for what you can and cannot do, again, I'm talking about mechanics. Things like outlaws being allowed in highsec; such as suicide ganking; such as salvaging; such as probing mission runners.

I have no idea where you get the idea that I'm dictating anything. If anything, it's what these corps do (see the example provided earlier in the thread). That last point is about design decisions such as highsec being a PvP zone; that it's your task to chase outlaws; that it's up to players to protect themselves, not the game; that you don't inherently own anything beyond what you can actually keep to yourself. All of these are points that carebear players have a tendency to completely have misunderstood, and I've seen many cases where these misapprehensions are being taught though corp chats.

Yes. See my newbie skill plan, which shows that you can get a workable PvP skill set in a matter of weeks, not years. See the myth about the permacamped/insta-death lowsec, which is as solid as a wire-mesh sieve and just as full of pirates as the sieve is of water.

Bluffing is not the same thing as lying about how the game works, no. One is a legitimate gameplay move; the other is cheating. The ganker is doing the former; the unwitting carebear does the latter and the newbie is far worse off for it. Neither the intent nor the outcome is the same.

I'm not confusing them, these aren't two different issues. They aren't mutually exclusive. Those opinions can come out of ignorance.

There's 1000 posts in sci and ind forum saying "don't manufacture until PE is at V", are they all griefers that should be banned, or are they giving that advice out of goodwill?

But the Low Sec Pirates always blast away the newbies and warn them that they are 'not ready' for Low sec yet. And they indeed are not.

TBH, this whole thread and argument is just pointless.

I don't really see how you can prepare people for anything other than high sec with the tutorials.

but it's true, once you're done with them and the SoE arc, you might find yourself stuck.

i mean you'd have to create a PvP arena if you wanted to have a tutorial for that and I would say there's a good chance of you being burned at the stake for even entertaining the thought.

You're probably a rookie (or forum alt ) ... so let's assume that you are. From the way you've posted, you definitely do not sound like a "noob" though, and will probably (hopefully!) digest what's being said here and learn something from it.

Sorry in advance for a long post.

As LHA Tarawa mentioned, this is a discussion (if you can call it that) that goes back a _long_ time and essentially gets to the core of the game in some sense.

For the most part, you have these two divisions of people in EVE

1. The petrified of risk
2. The EVE players

Hopefully the rest of this post, I can refrain from "carebear" and "PVPer", and at the same time keep things clearer than mud. Please also bear in mind that these are at best generalizations/stereotypes, and are painted from my own perspective. Others will agree and disagree to various points and with a varying intensity.

The "petrified" types are the ones who come to EVE because it's internet spaceships, and not because it's a sandbox or MMO or anything else. They want to mine/build/whatever in complete peace and safety. They want little to no outside interaction that will negatively impact their gameplay. While they may join (or form) corporations and alliances, there is little to no cohesion and everyone is nearly always doing their own thing -- sometimes tens of jumps away from each other. They're a corporation in name only, and will more likely than not break the ties with their corp "mates" when something more lucrative comes by, or when something detrimental (e.g. a wardec) impacts their gameplay too severely.

They may or may not live near newbie systems and/or frequent the help channels. For those that do, their help is of the "stay away from lowsec, because you will die" type. It may also entail such things as "dock and hide during wardecs" or other tactics that are meant to ensure that they have a low profile (or are boring enough) such that people leave them alone. This rarely, if ever works permanently, as someone will find them at some point, and gank/dec/bump them. At which point, they start campaigning to have mechanics changed to nullify whatever tactic/ploy/scam that caused something bad to happen to them or their ship. When confronted with arguments that they were the ones at fault, things will usually go downhill very quickly.



The "EVE Player" may have initially come to EVE because it's internet spaceships; though may have also come because it's a sandbox MMO. They may want to mine/build/whatever in complete peace and safefy, but also acknowledge that their actions affect other players and that other players affect them. They will embrace this fact and do their best to outwit the other players in some fashion -- maybe they get a "futures contract" on minerals before the markets spike for an expansion, or maybe they have perfected breaking through gatecamps to get cheaper stuff (or sell stuff for more money), or have done something else to give them an edge over the other guys (hell, maybe they even hired mercs to take out the competing miners). Either way, they're taking what they have been given via mechanics, and using it to the best of their abilities and opportunities to come out on top.

As with the extremely risk-averse types, some may or may not live near rookie systems and frequent the help channels. They may have come from MMOs that are on-rails, and require specific settings to allow direct combat (e.g. "duels" or "battlegrounds" or "PVP Servers") ... however, they do not apply the mechanics for those games to EVE, and will not campaign against the nature of the game. In turn, because they are advocating that people embrace "all of EVE", they're usually labelled as "griefers" (or equiv).

- is hisec (or lowsec or nullsec) safe --> "no." There is just the illusion of safety that can (and will) be broken by other players, regardless of the CONCORD security rating of a system. Sure, NPCs might be around to deal swift and decisive "justice" to a criminal, but to rely on this is folly as the "justice" is merely puntitive after the crime has been committed. There is no "prevention of criminal acts" mandate to any system.

In all honesty, lowsec and nullsec (and w-space) are probably "safer" than hisec, because you know that _anyone_ you see on local or D-scan is out to get you, and you can react accordingly. You can post guards in the system to lock it down, and they can shoot without having to wait for the other guy to do something "bad". (Null and w-space only) You can bubble the entry points and make it nearly impossible for people to get away from a gate (or get to it in the first place). But this takes effort, coordination, and more importantly to many -- a lowering of your on-paper income.



Now, I'm not saying that any one game playstyle is wrong, or better than the other. The true problem is that some believe that they should be allowed to affect other players without those players in turn affecting them.

If you want to mission, or mine, or run exploration sites ... then by all means do so.
If you want to wardec miners, or ninja salvage mission sites, or claim hold of a region of space and charge miners for permits ... then by all means do so.

I may personally not agree with the activities you choose to spend your time playing EVE ... but I will certainly defend your right to do it.

(the above statement obviously only applies if you're not breaking any CCP rules; and that you're trying to do it within the current framework of EVE, and not trying to get said framework changed to suit you)

Exactly. Why people even care what others do ingame points to something just fundamentally strange.

They need to learn to work with what is presented by everyone, no matter the play style.

Besides, it all sounds to me like they just want to oddly enough actually eliminate potential targets from the game. How counter-productive is that ?

I've always assumed it's some bizarre form of RP because pirates should love carebears. they really have no career without them.

Dying as a newbie is fairly painless, they can just have him quickly respawn at a nearby station. As for the whole "not ready" part, the tutorial is suppost teach you and make you ready. Going through an experance of running and fighting through lowsec as well as a live crash course in combat tactics is the best way of doing that.