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carebears are scaring off noobs with boredom.

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Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#281 - 2013-04-08 12:33:56 UTC
well if you get gate camped the mistake most players make is to come here or crime & puinishment and make a teary thread which will almost certainly cause quitting.

problems with PvE tend to be served more obviously by less trollolol bits of the forums.

forums.  serious business.
culo duro
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#282 - 2013-04-08 12:41:46 UTC
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
This is the thought process

Newb driven away by bad a pvp experience - good, thins the herd, stops eve pvp culture being diluted, eve stays a boutique mmo etc.
Newb driven away by bad a carebear experience - bad, eve needs more players, eve will die

It's total doublethink!

Cause **** logic, right?

I've starting blogging http://www.epvpc.blogspot.com 
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#283 - 2013-04-08 13:01:46 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Uninformed. Because EVE is very different from everything else they've tried


Not that unique. If it was folks will still be learning the game, as it is that unique.

Not make a T1 fleet and try to blob through, then claim it's "easy".

To get to that level of ease, a game has to have common elements found in other games...even "Hello, Kitty".

lamo

"well, when those plucky newbies do ignore my advice and then shread my pathetic alliance like an overfed hog it's not because my advice was horrid, it's because they cheated by not using t2 ships"
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#284 - 2013-04-08 13:03:05 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:

If I did you'll probably **** in your pants.

you're some wretched ex-bobbit who we would fall about laughing at the idea you thought you were scary or relevant
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#285 - 2013-04-08 13:09:07 UTC
culo duro wrote:
Ace Uoweme wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
I think it's a fair comment - highsec is overwhelmingly stuffed with industrialists, miners and mission runners


And why?

If you're a researcher/inventor with 100bil worth of researched BPOs, do you think you'll just cart them down to nullsec?

Naw, you're in high-sec to secure that investment and copying beyond belief in those 100000000001 POSes.

It's about Risk vs Reward...no reward losing some very pricey BPOs.


I'm pretty sure bringing thoes BPOs to null would yield you a great reward... hence titans? motherships? Capitals in general?

yeah i don't know why you'd have 100b worth of bpos and be doing anything but supercap manufacturing
Velicitia
XS Tech
#286 - 2013-04-08 13:13:06 UTC
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
even though i don't PvP, figuring out how to get around low/null was a blast. thwarting campers is such a good feeling. 'cos when you start those red guys on gates seem invincible, but then with a few tricks up your sleeve they become completely powerless.


um, that is PVP. Cool

might not be combat, but it's definitely "Player vs. Player".

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#287 - 2013-04-08 13:14:36 UTC
Commander Ted wrote:
I find that often times when new players look for corporations they get sucked into a high sec corporation run by carebears. I had multiple internet friends try Eve and go join their other internet friends doing missions, I try to convince them that they are not experiencing what the game really has to offer, they ignore me, and quit the game saying its ****.



So, if your personal friends think your opinion means squat, do you think the rest of us are going to give it anymore weight?

It's not the carebears that are scaring your friends off....it is indeed the game itself. Carebears are directly shaped by game mechanics. They cannot be anything other than they are. We are all carebears at some point assuming you can't or won't afford spending hundreds or thousands of dollars a month on this game to fund your play.

Chances are, your friends are looking for instant gratification, FPS style gameplay. They won't find that here in Eve no matter where they look. Carebears have nothing to do with it.

Don't ban me, bro!
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#288 - 2013-04-08 13:19:56 UTC  |  Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
It's sooo funny isn't it? When it suits their argument newbies are precious darlings like chicks just out of the egg.

Here's the thing. If I were to go upto a 1 day old newb jet can mining in Arnon, and say "hey dude, why you mining in here, there's better ores in the next system". Then they move and I can flip them, bait them, then blow up their ship. That newb now rage quits.

What will these people say when that newb comes on the forum? "Eve is a harsh world!", "ignorance is no excuse", "Eve is not for everyone", "you should have known high sec is not safe outside of newb systems", "a scam on every stargate" etc. etc.

Only when it's a carebear corp driving players away does lying to newbs become a problem for them Shocked

This, many times over.

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#289 - 2013-04-08 13:20:53 UTC
Onomerous wrote:
2/10

Posting in a stealth "nerf hi-sec" thread.


What's the deal with posts like this? Has the mindless PVE drudge destroyed your ability to comprehend what is being said? There's nothing in the OP that says highsec pve/industrial play is bad, there's nothing calling for a nerf to it, there's nothing at all that you think there is. Deliriums a hell of a thing, mate. Stop inhaling the veldspar fumes
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#290 - 2013-04-08 13:30:54 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
even though i don't PvP, figuring out how to get around low/null was a blast. thwarting campers is such a good feeling. 'cos when you start those red guys on gates seem invincible, but then with a few tricks up your sleeve they become completely powerless.


um, that is PVP. Cool

might not be combat, but it's definitely "Player vs. Player".


I dunno, I'm not engaging so I still class that as carebearing. I find the game of cat and mouse can be highly rewarding though.

but splitting hairs on definitions really, I do a bit of player versus me on occasion.

forums.  serious business.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#291 - 2013-04-08 13:53:11 UTC
Onomerous wrote:
2/10

Posting in a stealth "nerf hi-sec" thread.

This has nothing to do with highsec.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#292 - 2013-04-08 14:24:02 UTC
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
It's total doublethink!

nope. this is just standard way of "Eve PvPers" logic

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#293 - 2013-04-08 14:24:52 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Onomerous wrote:
2/10

Posting in a stealth "nerf hi-sec" thread.

This has nothing to do with highsec.

only if carebear "never PvP" corps operate in 0.0/low/WH.....

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Xen Solarus
Furious Destruction and Salvage
#294 - 2013-04-08 14:36:25 UTC
Oh this thread is going places!

Regarding the whole "newbs don't know why they are playing" arguement that has sprung up, i'd say its foolish to assume anything. Assumptions make a fool of you and me. There will be players that truely don't have a clue what they are doing, but also others that are well versed in science fiction games, and will have a very good idea of what they want to be. More still that have predispositions to play styles. When i first started playing, i knew nothing, and yet knew exactly what i wanted to do and achieve.

You should never make far reaching statements that assumes something about a large amount of people. It makes you immediately wrong, as all it takes is one exception. Not to mention its based on opinion rather than evidence. Never a good arguement, regardless of what drivel its followed by regarding your knowledge or experience.

Post with your main, like a BOSS!

And no, i don't live in highsec.  As if that would make your opinion any less wrong.  
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#295 - 2013-04-08 14:54:10 UTC
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
It's sooo funny isn't it? When it suits their argument newbies are precious darlings like chicks just out of the egg.
As opposed to…? And who are “they”?

Quote:
What will these people say when that newb comes on the forum? "Eve is a harsh world!", "ignorance is no excuse", "Eve is not for everyone", "you should have known high sec is not safe outside of newb systems", "a scam on every stargate" etc. etc.

Only when it's a carebear corp driving players away does lying to newbs become a problem for them Shocked
Nope. You have rather missed the entire point of this thread. It has nothing to do with lying (and nothing to do with highsec either) — it has to do with stifling learning and withholding choice because they don't know any better.

Learning that people will lie to them is something new players need to do — it's a lesson they won't get in the carebear corp (or, more accurately: they will never learn that they're not getting the full truth). You'll notice that, once you wash away the abrasive tone of the quotes you provided, they all follow the same theme: learn the game. Learn how to deal with the opposition. Look after yourself.

The problem would be exactly the same if they got picked up by a pirate corp and only told about half the game… but here's the difference: that won't happen because it would render the corp useless. They have to know and understand the entire game to function; the carbear corp can scrape by not knowing half of it and can survive spreading that ignorance to new players. This will make the shock that much bigger when the now-not-so-newbies realise that they've been taught the wrong things and that the game is nowhere close to what they thought it was (→ ragequit) and it will make them far less capable of adapting because they have already internalised a ton of very very bad habits (→ keeps dying to the same thing → ragequit).
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#296 - 2013-04-08 14:55:07 UTC
Let me see if I can summarize the OP.

If we get rid of high sec, CONCORD, local, NPC corps, etc. that allow carebears to play the game... sure, there would be a short term drop in subscriptions.

However, those players would quickly be replaced by even more hard-core PvPers, that are currently being driven away from the game by all the carebears.



I find the argument to be utterly ridiculous on so many fronts, it is hard to count.


1) Where were all these hard-core PvPers before CCP added all these things?

2) Who would the PvPers kill, if there were no carebears to gank? Each other? Hah. There is AMPLE opportunity to go PvP against other hard-core PvPers... but then you are more than likely going to lose... so most PvPers just hang in high sec, war dec'ing indy corps, hoping to pick off a loan straggler on occasion.

3) You have to prove that new players that join Indy corps, and stay there, are not predisposed to being all carebear from before they even start playing. You have to show that PvP corps aren't already recruiting all the PvP minded individuals.

4) Heck, I'm not even convinced the new player retention numbers are NEARLY as bad as CCP implies, since the big unsub point exactly corrisponds with the 51-day free trial.



Not only does the OP fail to justify his assertions, the logic is faulty, and the implied conclusion is a joke.


Classic case of asserting as truth, that which you want to be true.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#297 - 2013-04-08 15:01:21 UTC
Tippia wrote:
This will make the shock that much bigger when the now-not-so-newbies realise that they've been taught the wrong things and that the game is nowhere close to what they thought it was (→ ragequit) and it will make them far less capable of adapting because they have already internalised a ton of very very bad habits (→ keeps dying to the same thing → ragequit).



bad habits? How not to get blown up?

Once again, an arrogant post claiming that you know better then another person, what that person enjoys doing.



When I ran an indy corp, I was very clear in my recruitment, interviews, etc. Some people enjoy PvP. I do not. My corp is about avoiding PvP, mining resources, building stuff, running missions, making ISK, etc. It you think you may enjoy PvP, then this is not the corp for you.

I didn't "turn" people into carebears. I just gave people that were already predisposed to being carebears, a place to hang out with, work with, be friends with, other carebears.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#298 - 2013-04-08 15:02:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Let me see if I can summarize the OP.

If we get rid of high sec
…aaand you already failed to summarize anything.

Quote:
I find the argument to be utterly ridiculous on so many fronts, it is hard to count.
That's because it's not the argument — it's just a nonsensical strawman you built up.

Quote:
Classic case of asserting as truth, that which you want to be true.
Yes, that's pretty much the foundation of a strawman argument, and it's why you shouldn't do it (especially not when it's as obvious as you just made it). Now, would you like to actually discuss the topic of the thread and comment on anything the OP said instead?

LHA Tarawa wrote:
bad habits? How not to get blown up?
No, quite the opposite: that's one of the things they have not learned and they've picked up a ton of bad habits that make them blow up far easier than should be the case.
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
SONS of BANE
#299 - 2013-04-08 15:05:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Seven Koskanaiken
Tippia wrote:
Nope. You have rather missed the entire point of this thread. It has nothing to do with lying (and nothing to do with highsec either) — it has to do with stifling learning and withholding choice because they don't know any better..


So the corp bans the new members from using the forums, going on the official wiki, going on other eve wikis, using the rookie channel, using the help channel, using google, doing the tutorial, doing the career missions, submitting tickets, and ever leaving the corp...

Shocked

If an illiterate kid in a third world slum finds a chess set in a landfill and learns how to play checkers with it from another slum kid, then the teacher is at fault.

If an educated adult with internet connection spends money on a computer game and can't be bothered to use the 1000s of in game and out of game resources to learn what they can do in it, it's their fault.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#300 - 2013-04-08 15:10:01 UTC
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
So the corp bans the new members from using the forums, going on the official wiki, going on other eve wikis, using the rookie channel, using the help channel, using google, doing the tutorial, doing the career missions, and ever leaving the corp.
No, but why would they do any of that? All they apparently need to know is provided by the helpful corp members…

…too bad that the corp members are wrong.

If an educated adult already has the answer to his question, why would he waste time finding the answer to his question?