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Quick demo on how to Multi-box in EVE using ISBoxer. Went ratting in Navy Omens...
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Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#61 - 2013-04-22 09:25:20 UTC
culo duro wrote:


But you do have access to it, you're just chosing to not use it. You could just plex instead then use that amount of money on an ISBoxer sub... you saying that you don't have access to it, is just silly.

Please say how you can have an advantage with ISBoxer compared to the Cons.


Just like everybody has access to other bot programs as well.

The advantage is that you have an external program controlling game clients. If there would be no advantages to using such programs, people wouldn't use them.



.
AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
#62 - 2013-04-22 09:28:00 UTC
Nice video.

EVE would indeed be a better game if we were each limited to one character, but of course such a limitation would be unenforceable.

I don't blame people for doing this any more than I blame people for joining big alliances full of people they don't know just so they can be in the biggest blob that rules them all. Yes, it diminishes the overall game, but it's often in the individual player's best interest.
culo duro
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2013-04-22 09:40:51 UTC
Roime wrote:
culo duro wrote:


But you do have access to it, you're just chosing to not use it. You could just plex instead then use that amount of money on an ISBoxer sub... you saying that you don't have access to it, is just silly.

Please say how you can have an advantage with ISBoxer compared to the Cons.


Just like everybody has access to other bot programs as well.

The advantage is that you have an external program controlling game clients. If there would be no advantages to using such programs, people wouldn't use them.


Except botting is automated.

Doing what ISBoxer does is very possible without the program, you just don't have to have several over computers, or similar setups. You can say what you want about ISBoxer but saying that ISBoxer gives you an advantage is silly.

The reason people make boxing programs is so you can lower the cost from having several computers to having 1.

I've starting blogging http://www.epvpc.blogspot.com 
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#64 - 2013-04-22 09:55:10 UTC
The difference to a bot exists only in your head because you need to justify your botting.

Compare these programs:

A) saves your keyboard input into memory, repeats the stored sequence 20 times at set intervals
B) saves your keyboard input into memory, repeats the keystrokes immediately 20 times

In both cases, player was at the keyboard and pushed the keys, then an external program replicated the keystrokes 20 times.

The only reason ISBotter is still allowed is because it inflates subscriber numbers, not because it's "not botting", improves the game or fair.



.
culo duro
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2013-04-22 10:46:02 UTC
Roime wrote:
The difference to a bot exists only in your head because you need to justify your botting.

Compare these programs:

A) saves your keyboard input into memory, repeats the stored sequence 20 times at set intervals
B) saves your keyboard input into memory, repeats the keystrokes immediately 20 times

In both cases, player was at the keyboard and pushed the keys, then an external program replicated the keystrokes 20 times.

The only reason ISBotter is still allowed is because it inflates subscriber numbers, not because it's "not botting", improves the game or fair.


A) Is what a bot is, it stores data and does it automated. That is impossible to setup without a program.
B) Is a human interaction, which is very possible to do irl with more computers.

And no, that's not true. A Bot replicates what it's told 24/7 365 days a year as long as it's active. The Multiboxing software duplicates the key the human is pressing, which have been done irl... google it.
You can call ISBoxer a bot as much as you want, but that's just a sore excuse. ISBoxer doesn't allow you to do anything that you wouldn't be able to do irl with more computers keyboards etc..

Stop being bad at eve, and get friends to beat thoes multiboxers which have apparently touched you in a bad place.

I've starting blogging http://www.epvpc.blogspot.com 
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#66 - 2013-04-22 10:57:51 UTC
culo duro wrote:
Roime wrote:
The difference to a bot exists only in your head because you need to justify your botting.

Compare these programs:

A) saves your keyboard input into memory, repeats the stored sequence 20 times at set intervals
B) saves your keyboard input into memory, repeats the keystrokes immediately 20 times

In both cases, player was at the keyboard and pushed the keys, then an external program replicated the keystrokes 20 times.

The only reason ISBotter is still allowed is because it inflates subscriber numbers, not because it's "not botting", improves the game or fair.


A) Is what a bot is, it stores data and does it automated. That is impossible to setup without a program.
B) Is a human interaction, which is very possible to do irl with more computers.

And no, that's not true. A Bot replicates what it's told 24/7 365 days a year as long as it's active. The Multiboxing software duplicates the key the human is pressing, which have been done irl... google it.
You can call ISBoxer a bot as much as you want, but that's just a sore excuse. ISBoxer doesn't allow you to do anything that you wouldn't be able to do irl with more computers keyboards etc..

Stop being bad at eve, and get friends to beat thoes multiboxers which have apparently touched you in a bad place.


Cognitive dissonance, defeating reality since the 50's.

ISBotter stores your keystrokes exactly in the same way as a macro recorder, and replicates them. Whether the replication happens after milliseconds or 15 minutes is not technically differentiating.

Ýou are essentially saying that a 3rd party program which controls multiple clients is ok, but a program that controls a single client is not- which just doesn't float.

I'm sorry for you, if you feel that ISBotter makes you good in a computer game. Your last retort is really pathetic.

.
culo duro
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2013-04-22 11:10:45 UTC
Roime wrote:
culo duro wrote:
Roime wrote:
The difference to a bot exists only in your head because you need to justify your botting.

Compare these programs:

A) saves your keyboard input into memory, repeats the stored sequence 20 times at set intervals
B) saves your keyboard input into memory, repeats the keystrokes immediately 20 times

In both cases, player was at the keyboard and pushed the keys, then an external program replicated the keystrokes 20 times.

The only reason ISBotter is still allowed is because it inflates subscriber numbers, not because it's "not botting", improves the game or fair.


A) Is what a bot is, it stores data and does it automated. That is impossible to setup without a program.
B) Is a human interaction, which is very possible to do irl with more computers.

And no, that's not true. A Bot replicates what it's told 24/7 365 days a year as long as it's active. The Multiboxing software duplicates the key the human is pressing, which have been done irl... google it.
You can call ISBoxer a bot as much as you want, but that's just a sore excuse. ISBoxer doesn't allow you to do anything that you wouldn't be able to do irl with more computers keyboards etc..

Stop being bad at eve, and get friends to beat thoes multiboxers which have apparently touched you in a bad place.


Cognitive dissonance, defeating reality since the 50's.

ISBotter stores your keystrokes exactly in the same way as a macro recorder, and replicates them. Whether the replication happens after milliseconds or 15 minutes is not technically differentiating.

Ýou are essentially saying that a 3rd party program which controls multiple clients is ok, but a program that controls a single client is not- which just doesn't float.

I'm sorry for you, if you feel that ISBotter makes you good in a computer game. Your last retort is really pathetic.


You're completely off trail here, you're saying that something that is automated (a Bot) is similar to a human sitting and hitting a key.

Let me break it down for you, in a understandable way.

Automation = bad
Human interaction = good.

And i'll say it again, duplicating thoes keys is possible without the program, and it's been done.

I've starting blogging http://www.epvpc.blogspot.com 
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#68 - 2013-04-22 11:17:45 UTC
No, you are completely off the trail if you think that a program controlling a game client is the same as a human hitting a key.

It's natural for you to try to change the reality to fit your moral constructs, but it only happens in your own head.

Then duplicate the keys without the program.

Multiboxing = ok
Using 3rd party programs to control game clients = bad

.
culo duro
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2013-04-22 11:21:12 UTC
Roime wrote:
No, you are completely off the trail if you think that a program controlling a game client is the same as a human hitting a key.

It's natural for you to try to change the reality to fit your moral constructs, but it only happens in your own head.

Then duplicate the keys without the program.

Multiboxing = ok
Using 3rd party programs to control game clients = bad



But why would i wanna buy several computers and spent hundreds of thousands of money on it, when i can just subscribe to a multiboxing software?

Come with a reasonable argument for why it's "botting".

Bot is a shorten for "Robot", which is automation.

I've starting blogging http://www.epvpc.blogspot.com 
Lady Areola Fappington
#70 - 2013-04-22 11:57:46 UTC
Personally, I dislike multiboxing programs, as I feel they do give an unfair advantage in situations. I'll use a really simple PVP example to explain why.

I am flying a ship with 1000EHP(keeping numbers simple). I encounter non multiboxer. He locks me up, presses F1 once, and hits me with a weapon that does 200 damage a cycle. I have 5 cycles to escape, fight back, what have you.

Same encounter, only this time I encounter "key broadcaster" with his 5 alts. Same exact actions as person one, exact same number of button presses and effort, and bang, I'm insta'ed.

You can use the same thought behind it with mining, ratting, what have you. you are expending no additional "keyboard" effort, yet reap gains from it.

As for it being worse than 5 ships controlled by 5 players, that's true in some ways. In other ways, it totally eliminates the "human factor" that people can, and do exploit. A 5 man automated multibox fleet is 5 guys always ready perfectly following "FC" orders. No cat-herding, bathroom breaks, getting a drink....Every toon locks at the exact same time, points exactly according to command, fires at the same instant. The automation boxed ice mining fleet unloads at the exact same instant, flees gankers at the exact command, etc.

In a way, automation software like ISBoxer removes the cognitive workload penalty that would otherwise be inherent in running a multibox fleet. You aren't one person splitting efforts to control multiple clients. You aren't five different people attempting to communicate and work together. You have the cognitive workload of one account, with the benefit multiplier of additional toons.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#71 - 2013-04-22 12:00:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Inxentas Ultramar
Multiboxing. Oh look it's this dead horse again. Let's kick it some more shall we? Lol

Can't imagine any reason why CCP wouldn't ban this apart from an economic IRL one. Once IRL money gets in the mix, don't even bother to protest. It's about as effective as voting for a moderate party in a first world democracy. With things like the power-of-two offer people are actively motivated into having as many accounts as possible, and many game-mechanics are dependent on two or more pilots. Ensure that there is enough risk when these two need to interact and tadaa: you create demand for alts.

The game is designed for it. It's designed to look like it rewards co-operative play, but it rewards you even better for forking over more money to pay for an alt. You bypass the need for the most valued commodity in the game: TRUST.

So in this grimdark game where people make a sport over screwing each other over, the multiboxer is pretty much immune from internal strife or the mistakes of others. That's not balanced, that's not fair, in fact it's plain and simple pay-to-win. Now I can all hear you charging your thermal lasers to take a stand against this statement, and I respect your opinion even though you are wrong because of Falcon. Cool
culo duro
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#72 - 2013-04-22 12:14:58 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:

I am flying a ship with 1000EHP(keeping numbers simple). I encounter non multiboxer. He locks me up, presses F1 once, and hits me with a weapon that does 200 damage a cycle. I have 5 cycles to escape, fight back, what have you.

Same encounter, only this time I encounter "key broadcaster" with his 5 alts. Same exact actions as person one, exact same number of button presses and effort, and bang, I'm insta'ed.


But that would have the same effect as 5 other guys doing that.
You're comparing 1 toon to 5 toons, because of the "multibox factor" however if you're going to compare it like that you gotta compare it evenly, else there's not really a point with it.

Lady Areola Fappington wrote:

As for it being worse than 5 ships controlled by 5 players, that's true in some ways. In other ways, it totally eliminates the "human factor" that people can, and do exploit. A 5 man automated multibox fleet is 5 guys always ready perfectly following "FC" orders. No cat-herding, bathroom breaks, getting a drink....Every toon locks at the exact same time, points exactly according to command, fires at the same instant. The automation boxed ice mining fleet unloads at the exact same instant, flees gankers at the exact command, etc.
.


That is true but you're not taking all the manual piloting into consideration, 5 man active fleet of pvpers that know their game will always win against a multibox fleet assuming equal skill.

Also Multiboxing isn't "Automated" as you put it.

Lady Areola Fappington wrote:

In a way, automation software like ISBoxer removes the cognitive workload penalty that would otherwise be inherent in running a multibox fleet. You aren't one person splitting efforts to control multiple clients. You aren't five different people attempting to communicate and work together. You have the cognitive workload of one account, with the benefit multiplier of additional toons.


As i stated, you're wrong, there's no Automation involved, it all happends via human interaction.

I've starting blogging http://www.epvpc.blogspot.com 
rswfire
#73 - 2013-04-22 12:30:37 UTC
culo duro wrote:
But why would i wanna buy several computers and spent hundreds of thousands of money on it, when i can just subscribe to a multiboxing software?

Come with a reasonable argument for why it's "botting".

Bot is a shorten for "Robot", which is automation.


I've mostly agreed with you in this thread, but I have a technical background, developed since childhood, and what you're saying just isn't true in all respects. It's pointless, really, as I don't care, but I just want to point out that this program is in fact automation. While it requires human interaction to continue to function, it is still automating (ie, replicating) actions across multiple clients. The only difference is that it requires human input to continue functioning. You are correct in your definition of a bot however. It acts independently, and that is an important difference. I also don't feel it's fair to say you need to buy several computers. I can and do at times have twelve clients running at once on my computer. I do not use any third party software for this. As I said, I alt-tab. I offer these comments only to clarify some technical aspects, not the actual merits of this software.

About Firesworn Nation .|. FB .|. G+ .|. Steam
culo duro
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2013-04-22 12:48:24 UTC
rswfire wrote:
culo duro wrote:
But why would i wanna buy several computers and spent hundreds of thousands of money on it, when i can just subscribe to a multiboxing software?

Come with a reasonable argument for why it's "botting".

Bot is a shorten for "Robot", which is automation.


I've mostly agreed with you in this thread, but I have a technical background, developed since childhood, and what you're saying just isn't true in all respects. It's pointless, really, as I don't care, but I just want to point out that this program is in fact automation. While it requires human interaction to continue to function, it is still automating (ie, replicating) actions across multiple clients. The only difference is that it requires human input to continue functioning. You are correct in your definition of a bot however. It acts independently, and that is an important difference. I also don't feel it's fair to say you need to buy several computers. I can and do at times have twelve clients running at once on my computer. I do not use any third party software for this. As I said, I alt-tab. I offer these comments only to clarify some technical aspects, not the actual merits of this software.


You need several over computers to run a setup that would allow you to do the exact same that ISBoxer allows you to do.

I've starting blogging http://www.epvpc.blogspot.com 
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#75 - 2013-04-22 13:01:07 UTC
culo duro wrote:

But why would i wanna buy several computers and spent hundreds of thousands of money on it, when i can just subscribe to a multiboxing software?

Come with a reasonable argument for why it's "botting".

Bot is a shorten for "Robot", which is automation.


You don't have to? I could as well ask why would I need to spend hours ratting, when I can just download a bot and put it to work while I sleep.

As presented in the posts above, there is no technical difference between a macro and ISBotter. The difference is only in your head, because you want to see it that way.





.
culo duro
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2013-04-22 13:21:43 UTC
Roime wrote:
culo duro wrote:

But why would i wanna buy several computers and spent hundreds of thousands of money on it, when i can just subscribe to a multiboxing software?

Come with a reasonable argument for why it's "botting".

Bot is a shorten for "Robot", which is automation.


You don't have to? I could as well ask why would I need to spend hours ratting, when I can just download a bot and put it to work while I sleep.

As presented in the posts above, there is no technical difference between a macro and ISBotter. The difference is only in your head, because you want to see it that way.


Because a bot is fully automatic while a multiboxing software require human interaction making it semi automatic.

I've starting blogging http://www.epvpc.blogspot.com 
Netheus Soubar
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#77 - 2013-04-22 16:15:14 UTC
Quote:
CONDUCT

A. Specifically Restricted Conduct

[...]

You may not use your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game.


http://community.eveonline.com/support/policies/eve-eula/

In other words - macro'ing for Logitech keyboards or the likes is okay as long as you map the keys to something you define, or is already defined, in the client.

Anything else, can be considered a violation of this paragraph.
Reppyk
The Black Shell
#78 - 2013-04-22 16:50:18 UTC
TR4D3R4LT wrote:
Feel free to google "eve online +G15" as example. Key macros are totally fine as long as you're the one pressing the buttons
To some limitations. Feel free to explain me how that particular macro "unlock all your targets" work because I can't think of a "fair" way to do it.

There is a shortcut in EVE (ctrl+maj) to unlock the current target. That's all.
For this macro, it needs to spam ctrl+maj 8 or 9 times (the max number of locked targets), with a slight delay between them (for some reasons unlocking a target takes time). Which is different from a "run my lowslots" (no delay needed).

I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.

Proud co-admin of frugu.net, a French fansite about EVE !
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#79 - 2013-04-22 17:11:30 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:

In a way, automation software like ISBoxer removes the cognitive workload penalty that would otherwise be inherent in running a multibox fleet. You aren't one person splitting efforts to control multiple clients. You aren't five different people attempting to communicate and work together. You have the cognitive workload of one account, with the benefit multiplier of additional toons.


This pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter. I multibox quite a bit when I'm running missions/anoms in null, but I have never been able to multibox PvP because I just can't multitask on my own that well anymore (call it my advancing years slowing my brain down). For me, a program like IS boxer would provide a clear and decisive advantage over my normal human capabilities in certain situations.

It's not botting, but trying to pretend it doesn't offer an advantage is just obfuscation (or plain old denial). If it didn't offer an advantage no one would use it. And it's the fact that it offers that advantage outside of the normal game mechanics that makes it so unpalatable to a lot of people.

As for the amount of effort spent mastering the technique, that's neither here nor there. Spending a lot of time learning to how to exploit a bug, for example, does not mean said exploit isn't wrong. Just because you spent six months learning to ISBox effectively has no bearing on whether or not ISBoxer ultimately damages the game experience for others.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
oodell
Rotciv Rrama Industries
Goonswarm Federation
#80 - 2013-04-22 18:00:49 UTC  |  Edited by: oodell
De'Veldrin wrote:
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:

As for the amount of effort spent mastering the technique, that's neither here nor there. Spending a lot of time learning to how to exploit a bug, for example, does not mean said exploit isn't wrong. Just because you spent six months learning to ISBox effectively has no bearing on whether or not ISBoxer ultimately damages the game experience for others.



Spending 6 months learning and perfecting a technique is profoundly different than writing a script to do it for you.

Also, people keep ignoring the fact that for every advantage ISBoxer gives you, there is a huge disadvantage right around the corner. I could list dozens. The trick is finding a niche role where you can use your advantages and minimize your disadvantages, like any other eve player would do.


[quote]
In a way, automation software like ISBoxer removes the cognitive workload penalty that would otherwise be inherent in running a multibox fleet. You aren't one person splitting efforts to control multiple clients. You aren't five different people attempting to communicate and work together. You have the cognitive workload of one account, with the benefit multiplier of additional toons


Yes, it helps, but not as much as you may think. It is NOT a 'cognitive workload' of one account. I used to triplebox drakes in fleet PVP (with no additional software) and of course that was difficult. Depending on various factors, something like in the OP can be equally or more difficult than this. The whole interface is far from perfect, and you end up spending a lot of time just trying to keep things together. In some cases it's WORSE using the tool, because you lose the granularity of control over each individual character that you would have while running a lower number in separate windows. (Yes you can, of course, control them all manually, but when things go wrong it's difficult to find the time)

Here's a basic example:
1) You select a celestial to warp out to from your overview
2) Double click align towards it
3) Click warp
4) 1/3 of your gang doesn't warp away and just sits there

How did this happen? It happens a lot when there is something between you and the celestial. When you double click in space, some of your characters selected something on-grid instead of the celestial you thought you had selected, and when you hit warp nothing happens.

At this point you end up flipping madly through your characters trying to get them all together again. In PVP this would be fatal.

It's not as easy as the naysayers make it out to be.