These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

An open question to CCP about AFK mining.

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#141 - 2013-04-05 21:32:23 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

The ingame investment of the AFK player in your scenario is greater, thus they reap the greater reward. They still accrued reward at the same rate.


See this is where everything hinges and CCP will have to step in to tell us what's what. You are claiming that the AFK miner invests more time for more resources. I am claiming that because they are not playing the game and the game is essentially playing itself the AFK miner invests less time but receives more resources.

I would imagine that most consider providing input to the client to be playing the game. Because in reality it's just staring and waiting for timers to expire, which is nothing more than passive observation, that separates an AFK miner from an ATK miner by definition.


Passive observation is fine but not required there are plenty of things to do while mining, chatting, marketing, etc. So those that choose passive observation are choosing to do less than they could and losing out on acquiring things. AFK mining however is almost-no observation which wouldn't be a problem except that over time it becomes an unfair advantage over ordinary play.

The other activities you mention neither contribute to nor detract from the mining and as such are irrelevant to a comparison of what an AFK or ATK miner accrues in ore/ice over a given period. AFK mining still requires the same inputs to continue accruing items that ATK mining does and as such cannot accelerate anything, and likely decelerates the process as inputs have a lower tendency to be made immediately when needed. Since ordinary mining play requires such sparse inputs for either player the decision to be at the keyboard is not one that either player is forced to make but one chooses to make.

If the argument stems from the fact that one has time which they can log in but not be completely attentive while the other has a shorter play span in which they can be attentive then the issue is still a matter of one player being able to log in and devote more character time to the game than the other, which is not an exploit.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#142 - 2013-04-05 21:34:13 UTC
Tippia wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
I disagree time investment matters in an activity such as this. Hence the difference in rates.
…except, of course, that there is no difference in rates and that as a result, unsurprisingly, spending twice the time yields twice the income.

You can disagree as much as you like, but earning 4 volume units in 4 time units is the same rate as earning 8 volume units in 8 time units. Your disagreeing only makes you fail at pre-school maths.

Quote:
See this is where everything hinges and CCP will have to step in to tell us what's what.
CCP don't particularly need to step in to tell us that 4/4 = 8/8.

Quote:
I am claiming that because they are not playing the game and the game is essentially playing itself
…which is, of course, false. The game doesn't play itself — it just counts down a timer, which is the same for the both player A and B, after which both player A and B yield the same rewards. Same reward for the same time = same rate. There is nothing even remotely accelerated about either of them (but of course, being at the keyboard means that player A will earn more than player B).


You're forgetting that they are getting 8 volume units for 4 time units, not 4 volume units for 4 time units, nor 8 volume units for 8 time units. They are spending 4 hours playing and 4 hours AFK so that's 4 times units not 8. It's not same time = same rate or their wouldn't be an issue. It's same time = double rate.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#143 - 2013-04-05 21:36:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
La Nariz wrote:
You're forgetting that they are getting 8 volume units for 4 time units
Nope. That's you confusing AFK with botting again (that, or you altering the scenario to something where they're hacking the EVE servers to adjust how much they get from each cycle, which is an infringement that has nothing to do with being AFK).

Quote:
They are spending 4 hours playing and 4 hours AFK so that's
…8 hours played total, for 8 volume units. Twice the time for twice the volume — same rate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#144 - 2013-04-05 21:38:42 UTC
Tippia wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
I disagree time investment matters in an activity such as this. Hence the difference in rates.
…except, of course, that there is no difference in rates and that as a result, unsurprisingly, spending twice the time yields twice the income.

You can disagree as much as you like, but earning 4 volume units in 4 time units is the same rate as earning 8 volume units in 8 time units. Your disagreeing only makes you fail at pre-school maths.

Quote:
See this is where everything hinges and CCP will have to step in to tell us what's what.
CCP don't particularly need to step in to tell us that 4/4 = 8/8.

Quote:
I am claiming that because they are not playing the game and the game is essentially playing itself
…which is, of course, false. The game doesn't play itself — it just counts down a timer, which is the same for the both player A and B, after which both player A and B yield the same rewards. Same reward for the same time = same rate. There is nothing even remotely accelerated about either of them (but of course, being at the keyboard means that player A will earn more than player B).



This is where having a logoff timer would work well, especially a 20min one.

If you mine before you go to sleep, and go afk to sleep and click that one last ice ore hold, you could in effect be asleep well before that cycle ends and use the safety of downtime to safely log you off after that cycle ended and would therefore be gaining isk at a high rate.

It wouldn't be 4/4, it would theoretically be 5/4. Which is in fact higher than 4/4.

This is also the same mechanic that makes bumping ice miners so much fun. That cycle gets disrupted if you get bumped out of range. Whether you are afk or not.

The fact the lasers repeat and you are capped at your ore hold is where the mechanic becomes bot aspirant since being paid isk to sleep is what I don't think CCP intended.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#145 - 2013-04-05 21:38:49 UTC
Tippia wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
You're forgetting that they are getting 8 volume units for 4 time units
Nope. That's you confusing AFK with botting again.

Quote:
They are spending 4 hours playing and 4 hours AFK so that's
…8 hours played total, for 8 volume units. Twice the time for twice the volume.


So again we go to in your language AFK mining = botting. You can't play the game by not playing it, sure you can be logged in that long total but you didn't play the game, its 4 hours played for 8 volume units.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#146 - 2013-04-05 21:39:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
La Nariz wrote:
Tippia wrote:
…except, of course, that there is no difference in rates and that as a result, unsurprisingly, spending twice the time yields twice the income.

You can disagree as much as you like, but earning 4 volume units in 4 time units is the same rate as earning 8 volume units in 8 time units. Your disagreeing only makes you fail at pre-school maths.

Quote:
See this is where everything hinges and CCP will have to step in to tell us what's what.
CCP don't particularly need to step in to tell us that 4/4 = 8/8.

Quote:
I am claiming that because they are not playing the game and the game is essentially playing itself
…which is, of course, false. The game doesn't play itself — it just counts down a timer, which is the same for the both player A and B, after which both player A and B yield the same rewards. Same reward for the same time = same rate. There is nothing even remotely accelerated about either of them (but of course, being at the keyboard means that player A will earn more than player B).


You're forgetting that they are getting 8 volume units for 4 time units, not 4 volume units for 4 time units, nor 8 volume units for 8 time units. They are spending 4 hours playing and 4 hours AFK so that's 4 times units not 8. It's not same time = same rate or their wouldn't be an issue. It's same time = double rate.

8 hours still elapsed, and in that time only 8 units were accrued. The reason this cannot be considered accelerated is that there is no way to rework the situation to accrue those same 8 units in less than 8 hours of real time. Nor can this be done without spending those 8 hours with a character logged in and at a belt with occasional maintenance.

La Nariz wrote:
So again we go to in your language AFK mining = botting. You can't play the game by not playing it, sure you can be logged in that long total but you didn't play the game, its 4 hours played for 8 volume units.

The character was logged in for 8 hours and the necessary inputs provided (which is playing) over that period to keep accruing the 8 units. The character was "played" the entire time as necessitated by the mechanics of the activity.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#147 - 2013-04-05 21:41:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
La Nariz wrote:
So again we go to in your language AFK mining = botting.
Nope. That's still you saying they're the same. I'm saying they're not.

The only way for player B to get 8 VUs for 4 TUs played would be if he used a bot. If not, he would have to spend the 8 TUs to get the 8 VUs — i.e. the same rate as someone spending 4 TUs to get 4 VUs.

In reality, if he was actually AFK, he'd only get ¾ a VU for 8 TU, which means that the ATK player would have a rate that's about 11× higher (not that it matter since both qualify as ordinary gameplay).

Quote:
You can't play the game by not playing it
Exactly. So in order to get the 8 VUs you have to spend the 8 TUs, which yields the same rate as if you had spent 4 TUs to get 4 VUs.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#148 - 2013-04-05 21:47:35 UTC
Tippia wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
So again we go to in your language AFK mining = botting.
Nope. That's still you saying they're the same. I'm saying they're not.

The only way for player B to get 8 VUs for 4 TUs played would be if he used a bot. If not, he would have to spend the 8 TUs to get the 8 VUs — i.e. the same rate as someone spending 4 TUs to get 4 VUs.

In reality, if he was actually AFK, he'd only get ¾ a VU for 8 TU, which means that the ATK player would have a rate that's about 11× higher (not that it matter since both qualify as ordinary gameplay).

Quote:
You can't play the game by not playing it
Exactly. So in order to get the 8 VUs you have to spend the 8 TUs, which yields the same rate as if you had spent 4 TUs to get 4 VUs.


AFK miners by virtue of being AFK are not playing the game. The player is only spending 4 TUs yet walking away with 8 VUs. Ordinary gameplay has not been defined so you can't assume that.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#149 - 2013-04-05 21:51:51 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Tippia wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
So again we go to in your language AFK mining = botting.
Nope. That's still you saying they're the same. I'm saying they're not.

The only way for player B to get 8 VUs for 4 TUs played would be if he used a bot. If not, he would have to spend the 8 TUs to get the 8 VUs — i.e. the same rate as someone spending 4 TUs to get 4 VUs.

In reality, if he was actually AFK, he'd only get ¾ a VU for 8 TU, which means that the ATK player would have a rate that's about 11× higher (not that it matter since both qualify as ordinary gameplay).

Quote:
You can't play the game by not playing it
Exactly. So in order to get the 8 VUs you have to spend the 8 TUs, which yields the same rate as if you had spent 4 TUs to get 4 VUs.


AFK miners by virtue of being AFK are not playing the game. The player is only spending 4 TUs yet walking away with 8 VUs. Ordinary gameplay has not been defined so you can't assume that.

They are providing the same input/TU as an ATK player for that task and are thus are "playing" the same amount/TU as the ATK player. They provided 8 TU's worth on mining input and received 8 TU's worth of output.
Dave stark
#150 - 2013-04-05 21:54:23 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Tippia wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
You're forgetting that they are getting 8 volume units for 4 time units
Nope. That's you confusing AFK with botting again.

Quote:
They are spending 4 hours playing and 4 hours AFK so that's
…8 hours played total, for 8 volume units. Twice the time for twice the volume.


So again we go to in your language AFK mining = botting. You can't play the game by not playing it, sure you can be logged in that long total but you didn't play the game, its 4 hours played for 8 volume units.


i think the point tippia is making is that you can't afk mine for 4 hours. it doesn't happen. ever.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#151 - 2013-04-05 21:54:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
La Nariz wrote:
AFK miners by virtue of being AFK are not playing the game.
They are playing the game as much as the activity requires, and what they do (or don't do) during that time doesn't change the rate at which they accumulate ore.

Their decision not to stare at the screen every second of their in-game time does not accelerate anything.

Quote:
The player is only spending 4 TUs yet walking away with 8 VUs.
Only if they're botting. If not, they spend 8 TUs.
Simple question: how long does it take for an AFK player to spend 8 hours mining?

Quote:
Ordinary gameplay has not been defined so you can't assume that.
Sure I can. Waiting for a process to finish at the time set by the server and fully in accordance with the maths that dictate that process is as ordinary as can be.
Grayson Cole
Doomheim
#152 - 2013-04-05 22:04:02 UTC
In just about every other MMO I've ever played or heard of, AFK activities are grounds for being banned.

Going a step further, in those other games, AFK grinding usually requires some kind of 3rd party bot/clicker program to perform those activities, which is a breach of the EULA. This is where things enter the grey area with EVE, as mining even while at-the-keyboard requires very little (if any) interaction with the game. Bots are also allowed in EVE to a certain degree.

Personally, I don't blame the players for this epidemic, I blame CCP. AFK game play should be discouraged in any form. The players are ALWAYS going to take advantage of the system to gain any advantage they can. Mining needs to be reworked to be more interactive and engaging so that it is impossible to do AFK without breaking the EULA.

Frankly, CCP obviously doesn't give a **** if people mine AFK or not, otherwise they would've changed it by now.

.
Dave stark
#153 - 2013-04-05 22:06:12 UTC
Grayson Cole wrote:
In just about every other MMO I've ever played or heard of, AFK activities are grounds for being banned.

Going a step further, in those other games, AFK grinding usually requires some kind of 3rd party bot/clicker program to perform those activities, which is a breach of the EULA. This is where things enter the grey area with EVE, as mining even while at-the-keyboard requires very little (if any) interaction with the game. Bots are also allowed in EVE to a certain degree.

Personally, I don't blame the players for this epidemic, I blame CCP. AFK game play should be discouraged in any form. The players are ALWAYS going to take advantage of the system to gain any advantage they can. Mining needs to be reworked to be more interactive and engaging so that it is impossible to do AFK without breaking the EULA.

Frankly, CCP obviously doesn't give a **** if people mine AFK or not, otherwise they would've changed it by now.


because most games rely on an equal set of teams going head to head. eg alterac valley in WoW the most afkable place in the world (even more afkable than an ice field) however then you're 39 men vs 40 men. you are at a disadvantage.

who's hat a disadvantage if some guy is afk in an ice field? nobody.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#154 - 2013-04-05 22:09:07 UTC
Grayson Cole wrote:
Bots are also allowed in EVE to a certain degree.
Sure. That certain degree is “not at all”.

Quote:
Mining needs to be reworked to be more interactive and engaging so that it is impossible to do AFK without breaking the EULA.
Well, sure, but the OP's claim that choosing to do something else while waiting for an activity timer to count down suddenly turns that activity into an exploit is nonsensical, so it's not a particularly rational foundation for arguing for such a change.

Quote:
Frankly, CCP obviously doesn't give a **** if people mine AFK or not, otherwise they would've changed it by now.
Tbf, they rather seem to like it when they do since they have pretty consistently changed the game to make it easier.
Silvara Nocturn
Nocturn Industries
#155 - 2013-04-05 22:10:41 UTC
The only person obtaining items at an accelerated rate is the person ATK because he is earning isk from mining and missioning/trading.

afk mining is not an issue unless people are botting. You still need to do the required interactions for mining so they have no advantage.
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#156 - 2013-04-05 22:11:27 UTC
Dheeradj Nurgle wrote:
Does it matter? Their kind will quit the game sooner or later, and then go whine about how boring the game is.


Hey, I endured the twits in WoW coming over from EQII. I can handle the twits in EvE coming over from WoW.

But one thing is universal -- and even EvE players have to admit -- gameplay in EvE is boring.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
Frying Doom
#157 - 2013-04-05 22:16:38 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Dheeradj Nurgle wrote:
Does it matter? Their kind will quit the game sooner or later, and then go whine about how boring the game is.


Hey, I endured the twits in WoW coming over from EQII. I can handle the twits in EvE coming over from WoW.

But one thing is universal -- and even EvE players have to admit -- gameplay in EvE is boring.

It depends on what you do and what you like.

Yes EvE is missing the emotional rewards you get in a system like WoW were you level and get a pretty sound and light.

EvE is about patience and maybe a couple of spreadsheets. It is more for those people who do not require a game to validate their existence.

But yes Mission Running is boring as hell.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#158 - 2013-04-05 22:21:02 UTC
Silvara Nocturn wrote:
The only person obtaining items at an accelerated rate is the person ATK because he is earning isk from mining and missioning/trading.
Nah. He's also just obtaining more items, but the rate of acquisition is normal for the activities in question. He'd be obtaining items at the normal rate from the mining, at the normal rate from the trading, and at the normal rate for whatever else he engages in at the same time. All of them will be ordinary gameplay at the ordinary rate.

In fact, the way EVE works, that whole “accelerated rate” bit ends up just being a piece of standard CYA legalese should anyone ever be able to actually influence the server. At most, it could apply if someone found a duping exploit and set up a bot to keep it going 23.5/7 (especially in a scenario where such an exploit would only work if you could quickly overwhelm the server and client with mass requests to do something), but even then, the botting and duping, each on its own, would be against the EULA, so that particular clause just lets the GM spank the exploiter three times for the same infraction. Twisted
Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#159 - 2013-04-05 22:27:18 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Georgina Parmala wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Georgina Parmala wrote:
Rock just takes 10 seconds of attention per account every 10?


4, or 6 if you're lucky.
what the hell are you going to do in 6 mins? not a lot.

not when you compare it to ice's 20-30 mins.

You're thinking of at the speaker mining, which is perfectly doable while at work or watching TV for near 100% uptime.

Just because the strip stops doesn't mean you have to immediately run to start it again. It's afk mining, remember? It can be as simple as restarting strips every commercial break. I'll still fill a barge with ~5 mil worth of goods in under 45 min. And there's no one to bump or gank me. Hell, most days, the system I choose to mine, there's not another soul in the belt. I also get my pick of the high-yield variety rock. On an alt that lives in that system with minimal training (barge 3, yield doesn't matter because no 100% miner uptime, no ice training), ready to suck rock when I have a few spare minutes to warp out to a belt. I do it while, for example, playing with the kids - occasionally taking 30 seconds to step away and reset lasers.

I also have perfect refine at a station in system, when my main swings by to pick up the spoils. There are sufficient high range buy orders around for trit and pye that I don't even need to haul.


not sure if you have no idea what you're talking about, or you're just a mong.


Lets throw ice mining 5 on top of my current skills on that miner alt.
Let us put T2 Ice Harversters, Ice Rig, 2 T2 ice upgrades, and a Damage Control (since I have to worry about ganks in a belt) on a retriever.

EFT works that out to 659m3 per minute in yield. This works out to 36.41 min to fill my 24.2km cargo. Sound about right?
24 Glacial Mass at 120,000 = 2880000 isk.
2,880,000 / 36.41 * 60 = 4,745,948.91 isk per hour

So just under 5 mil per hour for ice.

Now lets put the same character without the extra week of ice training in an ore retriever. Two T1 strips, 3 mining upgrades since I'm yet to have a ganker come looking for me in 8 months.

My ore yield works out to 965 m3 per minute
24,200 / 965 = 25 minutes to fill at the keyboard
Condensed scordite 29isk/unit. I'm in a mostly empty system and condensed/massive scordite and azure/rich plag makes up most of my haul.
161333 units per hold
4,678,657 isk per hold

4,678,657 / 25 * 60 = 11,228,776.8 isk per hour

Or, if I'm a bot aspirant and only keep the strips mining 2/3rds of the time, not short cycling the near depleted rocks, I'll make about half of what I would actively mining - 5,614,388.4 / hour. Or about 18% more than ice mining.


If I've horribly butchered this somewhere, please point it out and I will start training ice mining on said alt. But keep in mind I have absolutely 0 interest in training up to an exhumer, let alone exhumer 5, at the cost of the combat pilot on the account(s). I also have perfect refine on high sec ore, but not on Ice products. More skill point investment into a bonus cash side project.

tl;dr: slightly more effort, less skill points, slightly more isk, significantly less risk

Science and Trade Institute [STI] is an NPC entity and as such my views do not represent those of the entity or any of its members

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=276984&p=38
Garreth Vlox
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#160 - 2013-04-05 22:33:00 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Tippia wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Is AFK mining against the EULA?
No.

Quote:
The underlined portion pertains directly to AFK mining.
…or rather, it would, if being AFK somehow made you acquire stuff at an accelerated rate, which it doesn't.


It does allow you to acquire stuff at an accelerated rate. You are acquiring things as if you were present at the keyboard when you are not. This means the AFK miner will acquire things quicker than the ATK miner.

"other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play."

Ordinary game play has not been defined by CCP hence the gray area and this thread.


if you sit at the keyboard and mine 300m3 per minute and then walk away and it keeps mining at 300m3 per minute where is this accelerated rate you speak of? For it to accelerate it would have to let you mine more than 300m3 per minute when AFK but it doesn't. which makes this a rather old, overused troll attempt, oh look... your a goon... what a shocker. :o

The LULZ Boat.