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An open question to CCP about AFK mining.

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Josef Djugashvilis
#61 - 2013-04-05 18:41:34 UTC
Dear god, not another mining/botting thread.

Let it go folks, let it go and move on with your lives.

This is not a signature.
fukier
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2013-04-05 18:41:40 UTC  |  Edited by: fukier
La Nariz wrote:
at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. .


i left in the only phrase that counts... as afk minning will result in zero gain over regular mining its A ok!

edit... its funny though a goon complains about passive income while recieving passive income...What?
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2013-04-05 18:41:49 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
The rate is accelerated because the player is gaining mining cycles while not actually playing EVE. So say we have an AFK miner and an ATK miner. Both spend 4 hours mining but, the AFK miner spends 4 hours AFK mining. Since AFK mining is not actually playing EVE they spent no time actually playing EVE and did something analogous to botting. This means the AFK miner took in twice what the ATK miner did in the same amount of time spent playing EVE.


4 hours is 4 hours, doesn't matter how much time is spent at the keyboard or not. both players spend the exact same amount of time interacting with the game regardless of whether or not they are in front of the keyboard watching the lasers cycle or not.

the guy at the keyboard is "playing" as much eve as the guy not at the keyboard.

weren't there similar whines about amarr ships and structures at one point? i vaguely recall it when i first started playing but i never took much notice since i was in my osprey chewing veld rocks.


I disagree it does matter how much time is spent at the keyboard. The guy not at the keyboard is not playing the game at all and should not benefit from a potential gray area in the EULA. You can't play EVE but ~not be playing~ EVE. I agree with you that mining should be fixed so it can accommodate a diverse style of game play.

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#64 - 2013-04-05 18:44:30 UTC
Secret Sponsor wrote:
This would fix AFK mining, but it wount fix botters, at best it would make botters more detectable by CCP, but since its about AFK mining here goes.

I´ll just do one ship here so lets take the most used.

Now a mackinaw has 450m3 cargohold and 35000m3 orehold, and the ore mined goes into the orehold.

Fixed: Mack has 5000m3 cargohold and 32000m3 orehold and the ore mined goes into cargohold.

This way you can still stay and mine without docking often, but you have to move your ore from cargohold to orehold 8 times

PS. the 5k orehold is so u can do 2 cycles without the modles stopping. (at 4k they will stop mining after 2 cycles) this will give u time to pickup cooffe and to read forums or what ever u need to do, and imo u need to do something else coz mining aint that much of a thrill¨, and some people do mine and play their main at the same time.

Just my 2 cents though.



Or something along the lines of having built in modules to refine the ore you gather. The ore hold (say 5k m3) would process ore at a rate defined by skills, but instead of using a processing center, would be done on ship, converted into the multiple refined ore into a more general cargo bay (say, 10k m3).

Removes the ship balancing errors, removes the whole free refining element that is highsec specific, and keeps the ORE exhumer as an industrial ship (which is should still be). Also would help the afk'ness since you could only refine/mine at a rate compliant with your ore hold. ie- wouldn't hurt the pilot that needs a quick door answer or bio or dog walk.

But would affect the afk'er who wants to fly the switch on and go do something else NOT Eve related and contributing to the game.

Of course, it's a rough idea.. but could in theory kill multiple birds with 1 stone.

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Dave Stark
#65 - 2013-04-05 18:44:33 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
So basically your attraction to mining is that it is a profession that can be done as a low stress, low income and laid back style? I am a scientist not a game designer but I am sure CCP can design a system that accommodates as many game styles as possible. I wouldn't worry about them destroying a style of game play, CCP does not have a history of consistently nerfing and destroying specific styles of game play.

Changes aren't the topic of this thread though, you hit many of the problem areas that need to be addressed but, its more about debating where this gray area lands while waiting for a blue/red post about it.


erm, i wouldn't disagree with that. i like mining because generally i spend my time just chilling out with music, bugging people in various chat channels, flicking through some market data, etc. also i just fancied something other than dps related stuff having spent a good 5-6 years playing dps in other games.

people just seem to be looking at a fix from the wrong angle. it's not the mechanics of mining modules/ships that make it so afkable, it's the asteroids. ice basically doesn't deplete so you can literally go afk for half an hour at a time or so. (which, you can't do with high sec ore).
generally, i mine ore so i'm not afk [but i am often tabbed out or watching another screen]. i find ore mining the nice balance between not playing, and having to sit there focusing on nothing but the game.

i think afk mining breaching the eula is a stretch by any imaginaton, though. although i guess there are worse ways to start a discussion with something outrageous.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2013-04-05 18:44:45 UTC  |  Edited by: La Nariz
fukier wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. .


i left in the only phrase that counts... as afk minning will result in zero gain over regular mining its A ok!


Player A mines for 4 hours and collects their minerals, player B mines for 4 hours and collects their minerals then goes AFK and leaves their client to mine for 4 more hours. Both players played the game for the same amount of time yet player B took in double the minerals of player A. Player B accumulated items/currency at an accelerated rate compared to player A.

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Dave Stark
#67 - 2013-04-05 18:46:46 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
I disagree it does matter how much time is spent at the keyboard. The guy not at the keyboard is not playing the game at all and should not benefit from a potential gray area in the EULA. You can't play EVE but ~not be playing~ EVE. I agree with you that mining should be fixed so it can accommodate a diverse style of game play.


but even if he is at the keyboard, he isn't playing the game either. there's the same amount of player to game interaction between the guy that checks his cargo hold every 20-30 mins as there is with some one who is sitting there transfixed to his eve client.
fukier
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2013-04-05 18:48:03 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
fukier wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. .


i left in the only phrase that counts... as afk minning will result in zero gain over regular mining its A ok!


Player A mines for 4 hours and collects their minerals, player B mines for 4 hours and collects their minerals then goes AFK and leaves their client to mine for 4 more hours. Both players played the game for the same amount of time yet player B took in double the minerals of player A. Player B accumulated items/currency at an accelerated rate compared to player A.


though client b has to be only semi afk to every now and then transfer the mins to an orca...

if you are truely afk the mining will stop after the hold is full...

so no... you are not really afk...

usually if you are mining you are watching a movie/tv show and keeping one eye on the ship to tsf the ores to a secondary ship...
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
fukier
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2013-04-05 18:49:37 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
I disagree it does matter how much time is spent at the keyboard. The guy not at the keyboard is not playing the game at all and should not benefit from a potential gray area in the EULA. You can't play EVE but ~not be playing~ EVE. I agree with you that mining should be fixed so it can accommodate a diverse style of game play.


but even if he is at the keyboard, he isn't playing the game either. there's the same amount of player to game interaction between the guy that checks his cargo hold every 20-30 mins as there is with some one who is sitting there transfixed to his eve client.


hmm how about to get moon mins you have to sit at a pos and every min click a button or else no goo...

cuss otherwise its afk income... which is clearly a violation of eulaCool
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
Trendon Evenstar
Olympus Gods
#70 - 2013-04-05 18:50:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Trendon Evenstar
Dave Stark wrote:
4 hours is 4 hours, doesn't matter how much time is spent at the keyboard or not


Its like this: I'll use World of Warcraft as an example but the same system for gathering has been copied by almost every modern MMO. Runes of Magic, Aion, EQ2, Vanguard, SWTOR, etc. Nodes appear randomly in a zone and players harvest them. Once harvested the node despawns and the player moves on. Resource gathering in this manner is laid back and relaxing for some, boring and unfun for others. But its a means to an end. Players gather resources for crafting or just to plain old convert into currency by selling to a vendor or players (farming).

The bizarre thing about EVE Online is that there are infinite nodes (ice) that do not deplete or despawn for 23 1/2 hours. Therefore, there is a subset of players that will take a 'gathering' profession like mining and do it full-time. This would quickly lead to someone quitting any other game as unfun, I mean why would someone gather resources 24/7 for what? To make isk, thats why. But in EVE Online because of the ease of resource gathering they just buy- or devote an entire account to the practice.

The 'infinite node' of ice would have to be addressed along with the ore hold of the mackinaw if anything were to be done about afk mining. Maybe CCP is totally ok with it? Is there a citation? What is Ring Mining? Whatever happened with that? Clearly there are a lot of players that are totally ok with afk mining because they have many accounts devoted to this practice. Farmers essentially, gathering isk.

While watching Netflix :p
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2013-04-05 18:51:29 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
I disagree it does matter how much time is spent at the keyboard. The guy not at the keyboard is not playing the game at all and should not benefit from a potential gray area in the EULA. You can't play EVE but ~not be playing~ EVE. I agree with you that mining should be fixed so it can accommodate a diverse style of game play.


but even if he is at the keyboard, he isn't playing the game either. there's the same amount of player to game interaction between the guy that checks his cargo hold every 20-30 mins as there is with some one who is sitting there transfixed to his eve client.


What you described in this and the other post isn't AFK mining, you're interacting by playing the market and chatting with others. What is not interacting is merely sitting there at work and checking every 20/30/45 mins to make it cycle again, completely ignoring the game except for that little interval of time. Basically its what the "New Order of Highsec" would call bot-aspirancy.

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#72 - 2013-04-05 18:52:51 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
I disagree it does matter how much time is spent at the keyboard. The guy not at the keyboard is not playing the game at all and should not benefit from a potential gray area in the EULA. You can't play EVE but ~not be playing~ EVE. I agree with you that mining should be fixed so it can accommodate a diverse style of game play.


but even if he is at the keyboard, he isn't playing the game either. there's the same amount of player to game interaction between the guy that checks his cargo hold every 20-30 mins as there is with some one who is sitting there transfixed to his eve client.



That's true, but there should be steps taken to eliminate that gap of time in which to check on your eve client, or make it to where you'd need to interact with it.

No one cares if you afk cloak, because that doesn't directly involve the economy.

I'm not saying it's right (nor wrong) for someone to work less than I do (by afking on ice mining ops) and make the same amount of isk (with market prices), but I can see there being an issue since Eve is about involvement and interaction.

It might not be "illegal" to afk mine, but current mechanics definitely are an enabler to it. And it is still just one step away from botting.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#73 - 2013-04-05 18:55:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Rhivre
La Nariz wrote:
fukier wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. .


i left in the only phrase that counts... as afk minning will result in zero gain over regular mining its A ok!


Player A mines for 4 hours and collects their minerals, player B mines for 4 hours and collects their minerals then goes AFK and leaves their client to mine for 4 more hours. Both players played the game for the same amount of time yet player B took in double the minerals of player A. Player B accumulated items/currency at an accelerated rate compared to player A.



So your problem here is that Player A can only play Eve for 4 hours?

I am not sure Player B has enough hold space to mine for 4 hours without docking either.

so, Player B goes out to mine, tabs AFK, and then forgets to come back, ends up sitting in space for 3 hours, during which time he gets blown up, resulting in a net mineral loss.

Fluffy Bunny Pic!

Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#74 - 2013-04-05 18:56:17 UTC
Trendon Evenstar wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
4 hours is 4 hours, doesn't matter how much time is spent at the keyboard or not


Its like this: I'll use World of Warcraft as an example but the same system for gathering has been copied by almost every modern MMO. Runes of Magic, Aion, EQ2, Vanguard, SWTOR, etc. Nodes appear randomly in a zone and players harvest them. Once harvested the node despawns and the player moves on. Resource gathering in this manner is laid back and relaxing for some, boring and unfun for others. But its a means to an end. Players gather resources for crafting or just to plain old convert into currency by selling to a vendor or players (farming).

The bizarre thing about EVE Online is that there are infinite nodes (ice) that do not deplete or despawn for 23 1/2 hours. Therefore, there is a subset of players that will take a 'gathering' profession like mining and do it full-time. This would quickly lead to someone quitting any other game as unfun, I mean why would someone gather resources 24/7 for what? To make isk, thats why. But in EVE Online because of the ease of resource gathering they just buy- or devote an entire account to the practice.

The 'infinite node' of ice would have to be addressed along with the ore hold of the mackinaw if anything were to be done about afk mining. Maybe CCP is totally ok with it? Is there a citation? What is Ring Mining? Whatever happened with that? Clearly there are a lot of players that are totally ok with afk mining because they have many accounts devoted to this practice. Farmers essentially, gathering isk.

While watching Netflix :p



Eve predates all those games unfortunately, but yea, I remember easy bots running around zones collecting those resources, even killing yard trash.

The problem, is where you draw the line. So much hype about emergent gameplay and sandbox and contribution... and then having those activities so dependent on a resource based on almost 0 involvement.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Dave Stark
#75 - 2013-04-05 18:56:19 UTC
Trendon Evenstar wrote:
The 'infinite node' of ice would have to be addressed along with the ore hold of the mackinaw if anything were to be done about afk mining.


this is basically the crux of afk mining. ice nodes. due to regular asteroids depleting you don't have afk ore miners. sure they probably are watching netflix (so often i'll have my tv on not watching my eve client, etc) but they won't physically be afk, or taking the dog for a walk, etc.

although in warcraft you also spend most of your time afk doing nothing, much like mining. you wait for the dungeon finder to find you a group and teleport you to a dungeon which you complete in under 15 mins and then repeat again.
in essence, wow is ice mining where it takes 15 mins to transfer ore from your mack to your orca.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#76 - 2013-04-05 18:58:31 UTC
Rhivre wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
fukier wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. .


i left in the only phrase that counts... as afk minning will result in zero gain over regular mining its A ok!


Player A mines for 4 hours and collects their minerals, player B mines for 4 hours and collects their minerals then goes AFK and leaves their client to mine for 4 more hours. Both players played the game for the same amount of time yet player B took in double the minerals of player A. Player B accumulated items/currency at an accelerated rate compared to player A.



So your problem here is that Player A can only play Eve for 4 hours?

I am not sure Player B has enough hold space to mine for 4 hours without docking either.

so, Player B goes out to mine, tabs AFK, and then forgets to come back, ends up sitting in space for 3 hours, during which time he gets blown up, resulting in a net mineral loss.



In a game based on competition I think every edge counts, personally. If someone can only play and be at their keyboard for 4 hours, they shouldn't be able to get 5 hours of work out of it.

Maybe this game needs a 20min autoboot.

Would help TIDI as well =P.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#77 - 2013-04-05 19:00:39 UTC
Rhivre wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
fukier wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. .


i left in the only phrase that counts... as afk minning will result in zero gain over regular mining its A ok!


Player A mines for 4 hours and collects their minerals, player B mines for 4 hours and collects their minerals then goes AFK and leaves their client to mine for 4 more hours. Both players played the game for the same amount of time yet player B took in double the minerals of player A. Player B accumulated items/currency at an accelerated rate compared to player A.



So your problem here is that Player A can only play Eve for 4 hours?

I am not sure Player B has enough hold space to mine for 4 hours without docking either.

so, Player B goes out to mine, tabs AFK, and then forgets to come back, ends up sitting in space for 3 hours, during which time he gets blown up, resulting in a net mineral loss.


My problem is that player B is gaining double the benefit of playing 4 hours via AFK mining.

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Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#78 - 2013-04-05 19:00:51 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:



In a game based on competition I think every edge counts, personally. If someone can only play and be at their keyboard for 4 hours, they shouldn't be able to get 5 hours of work out of it.

Maybe this game needs a 20min autoboot.

Would help TIDI as well =P.


I wouldnt mind a logout timer for inactivity at the keyboard, most games have one in some form or other.

Although, then chat logging people would resort to Homer Simpson style nodding birds :p

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Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#79 - 2013-04-05 19:01:58 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
also let's not kid ourselves, if npc rats were worth 10x as much because they took 10x as long to kill (so they keep the same isk/time as they do now) ratters would all fly amarr ships and go afk too.

path of least resistance and all.

besides, the effort of afk mining is totally justified by it's isk/hour.

If I calculate my at the keyboard time into isk per hour, I make north of 100mil/hour afk mining rock in high sec. The efficiency goes up with more than one account. Or more than a week of training to barely sit in a retriever.

Hannah Flex wrote:
[quote=La Nariz]
One solution would be a type of 'power meter' that waxes and wanes. A completely unattended miner would have a poor hourly yield no matter the skills, implants, boosts. But an attentive miner who was at the keyboard could obtain a decent yield by paying attention to his power meter and clicking it when it waxes.

If you are a current miner who engages in these afk activities and find yourself outraged by the possibility of having to be at the keyboard, something like this being implemented, you need to ask yourself why. Ratters, mission runners, etc. all need to be at the keyboard and paying attention, why shouldn't you??

The mechanism is already in the game. All you have to do is make more, smaller rocks, so they get sucked up in less than one strip cycle (or 1.1-1.4 cycles). The miner then needs to be at the keyboard scanning the remaining minerals, short cycling the strip to have any kind of respectable yield. It also forces them to target and start a strip at least every three to six minutes.

Also if you think you can't run missions/rat with an auto targeter and mashing F1 / drone boat while watching tv, you are mistaken.


As for OP, being afk does not make you generate ore at a faster rate had you been at the keyboard. Therefore it's not against the EULA.

Putting a 9v battery on your F1 key to continuously kick your propulsion mod while on Autopilot on the other hand..
Or doing same and locking 10 rocks, auto-cycling your strip miner while you're not there..

Science and Trade Institute [STI] is an NPC entity and as such my views do not represent those of the entity or any of its members

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=276984&p=38
Dave Stark
#80 - 2013-04-05 19:03:01 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
I disagree it does matter how much time is spent at the keyboard. The guy not at the keyboard is not playing the game at all and should not benefit from a potential gray area in the EULA. You can't play EVE but ~not be playing~ EVE. I agree with you that mining should be fixed so it can accommodate a diverse style of game play.


but even if he is at the keyboard, he isn't playing the game either. there's the same amount of player to game interaction between the guy that checks his cargo hold every 20-30 mins as there is with some one who is sitting there transfixed to his eve client.


What you described in this and the other post isn't AFK mining, you're interacting by playing the market and chatting with others. What is not interacting is merely sitting there at work and checking every 20/30/45 mins to make it cycle again, completely ignoring the game except for that little interval of time. Basically its what the "New Order of Highsec" would call bot-aspirancy.


i'm only interacting because i choose to, i could just as easily go down stairs and start cooking dinner, or something and be afk instead.

what i choose to do is completely arbitrary. even checking market data, chatting in chat channels etc, i still look like a bot because only i can see me checking the market, or chatting in channels other than local (unless the people in the ice belt are also in the channels i'm in).

then again afk mining only exists for ice, as such changing mining modules/ships rather than changing ice goes back to my point about changing things for lots of players to disrupt the few.