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Dev blog: Odyssey summer expansion: Starbase iterations

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Gevlin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#201 - 2013-04-02 19:50:44 UTC
With the introduction of the new corp hanger. will it be possible to mount them near the outter edges of the Pos shield so mates could pick up items with out entering the shields.

I am a paranoid guy some times and having my Rorqual bumped out of the POS (those evil spys)

I would like to offer my corp mates a storage space in my POS just not access to fly inside the bubble.

Someday I will have the time to play. For now it is mining afk in High sec. In Cheap ships
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#202 - 2013-04-02 19:52:16 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
I can confirm that we're not removing CHAs, the Personal Hangar structure is a separate structure and the two can exist alongside each other to meet different needs.

Letting directors and/or CEOs access the member's sections of the PHA is not going to be within our scope for the first iteration due to technical limitations, and I am honestly not sold on ever adding it. These structures are not intended to completely replace CHAs for all purposes, and the added difficulty to rapid evacuation provides slightly more incentive for wormhole invasions.

The Personal Hangar does not have any limits to total storage, which significantly reduces the amount of management that needs to be done to keep it running smoothly.

And a reminder once again, we are not allowing people to build supercaps in wormholes or lowsec, don't worry.



Can we have a Capital Personal Hangar?

Please read these!

New POS system New SOV system
Swidgen
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#203 - 2013-04-02 19:53:47 UTC
Two step wrote:
Glad to see this finally go public. The changes in the dev blog should go a long way towards making POSes a lot less of a pain, especially if the private storage SMA makes the release.

Last year you said that POS revamp issues were under NDA, and not only that, but the REASONS for CCP wanting a total POS revamp were also under NDA. So what were those reasons? Or are they still under NDA?

As for the devblog itself, this is wonderful news! All of it. I'm sure 90% of players would approve of an Odyssey launch delay if it takes an extra couple of weeks to get all of it done.

These changes address just about every issue players have had with POSes over the last few years. So what was the reason again for blowing us off (and two step [who despite my dislike of him has been the best CSM7 member]) last year in favor of some pie-in-the-sky "POS 2.0" system that never got off the ground? These changes should have been delivered in..... what was the name of last December's expansion again?

I'll end on a positive note. These POS changes are awesome.
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#204 - 2013-04-02 19:54:42 UTC
Altrue wrote:
Even if the code for starbases is old; badly made and so on, I really have a hard time believing you when you are under "technical limitations" for everything.

"Technical limitations" means "Really damn hard, and not really worth the effort at this time."
I can believe it.

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

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bruestle2
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#205 - 2013-04-02 19:55:04 UTC
I love all these POS changes!

However, 10k-40k m3 is a TINY amount per person. If you are a miner, you can fill that up in under an hour with one barge! When combined with the 3 hour cycle time of the Intensive Refining Array, I don't see how this will work for WH miners.

Also, can we do something about the intensive refining array? It takes up 4k cpu and 750k pg, takes 3 hours to run, refines at 70% (unaffected by skills), can only refine one type of ore at a time, and doesn't even have tabs! The medium intensive is identical except it takes 1/2 the fitting (still at ton), takes 1.5 hours to run, and holds 1/8th as much.
DJ P0N-3
Table Flippendeavors
#206 - 2013-04-02 19:57:55 UTC
Xindi Kraid wrote:
DJ P0N-3 wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
If people are not willing to take the risk that their corp will move without them, they can always store certain items in the CHAs instead. Having tradeoffs and decisions to make between what to store in each of the two forms of storage is one of our goals.


That would be great if CHAs were a sane way to do personal item storage at all, ever. Right now it's cans or bust, and I could write you an essay about how using cans to organize your things in a CHA is a nightmare.

My corp just has multiple CHAs. Each person has a specific tab in a specific array. To say we have a bit of a sprawl going on would be underselling it, and we have some people utilizing a few sections of the assembly arrays.


If it's feasible that works, but there comes a time when the sheer fuel and space requirement becomes prohibitive. I don't envy you the roles management for that, though.
Ydnari
Estrale Frontiers
#207 - 2013-04-02 20:00:36 UTC
Will there be support in the EVE API for the per-character container? i.e. within http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/EVE_API_Corporation_Asset_List

There's a few outcomes I could think of, from worst to best:

(1) API broken for anyone who anchors one of them
(2) Contents don't show in API
(3) Contents show, but all jumbled together
(4) Contents show, in separate subcontainers, but no indication who owns what.
(5) Contents show, in separate subcontainers, and a characterID attribute on the subcontainer showing whose it is.

--
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#208 - 2013-04-02 20:03:06 UTC
Xindi Kraid wrote:
silens vesica wrote:
Camios wrote:
Ahem.
I'm sorry to break this lovely atmosphere of joy, but

ShockedREFINING ARRAYS STILL SUCK!Shocked

Can you please do something about it?
Or at least explain briefly the rationale behind them sucking so hard.
In my opinion losing 30% or so of what you mined does not make any sense.

I believe this is deliberate, and I think it's to force some W-Space dwellers out into K-Space every now and again.

Aside from the fact we still have to sell stuff to make any money?

Refining arrays suck just as much in a POS in the ass end of null.

If you've got full capacity in the WH, money becomes less of a concern. I only venture out of the WH now to get those necessary components for fuel blocks & munitions that I can't source/create locally. If I had better refining capacity, I'd venture out even less.

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#209 - 2013-04-02 20:03:20 UTC
Bryg Philomena wrote:
Quote:
If a member leaves the corp, his or her items are left in the structure but cannot be accessed unless the player rejoins.


This worries me. As there is no way to contract, sell, move, courier, or trash the items in question they are essentially lost to both the player and the corp.

Griefing would be way too easy. Kick a player out and they lose everything. Hell, I wouldn't mind so much if it got put into a deliveries hanger there so the directors can access it, move it, sell it, use it, whatever. But locking it down sounds like a bad idea, IMO.

I belive that is why it is set up that way, there is no way to profit from kicking a player out so as to confiscate his stuff. If you unanchor the tower the stuff is automatically destroyed. Now you can blow it up, but then only have normal loot drop chances... which means except under unusual circumstances will likely not be very profitable.

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Infinite Force
#210 - 2013-04-02 20:11:07 UTC
bruestle2 wrote:
I love all these POS changes!

However, 10k-40k m3 is a TINY amount per person. If you are a miner, you can fill that up in under an hour with one barge! When combined with the 3 hour cycle time of the Intensive Refining Array, I don't see how this will work for WH miners.

Also, can we do something about the intensive refining array? It takes up 4k cpu and 750k pg, takes 3 hours to run, refines at 70% (unaffected by skills), can only refine one type of ore at a time, and doesn't even have tabs! The medium intensive is identical except it takes 1/2 the fitting (still at ton), takes 1.5 hours to run, and holds 1/8th as much.


Agreed, 10 - 40k is a tiny amount. You could, alternatively, just anchor another CHA and drop stuff into a tab that you have access to (all players maybe, or something similar)?

Go here ... and support the refinery cause!!!

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Kennesaw Breach
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#211 - 2013-04-02 20:16:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Kennesaw Breach
silens vesica wrote:
If you've got full capacity in the WH, money becomes less of a concern. I only venture out of the WH now to get those necessary components for fuel blocks & munitions that I can't source/create locally. If I had better refining capacity, I'd venture out even less.


I have lived exclusively in W-space for the past 2 years, and I am not in favor of any changes that make WH dwellers less reliant on having to travel outside their own systems.

Fuel in, loot out. I don't even mind the refinery losses, that's what rorqual ore compression is for. And I don't mind not being able to reprocess metal scraps, either, because people would just bring in modules to reprocess for their minerals rather than mine them in the hole, if reprocessing were a thing one could do in the hole. But if we're going to start getting nitpicky about industrial stuff that wasn't explicitly discussed in the original devblog, here's my laundry list:

1) Gas reactions: I've gotten used to the massive clickfest to set it up, but can we PLEASE get a progress meter on it? Or just make it a manufacturing job like everything else?
2) Ore compression: Yes it works, but the rorqual assembly lines always show as "READY" even if they're in use, so that's bugged.
3) Ore compression continued: If one corp member leaves jobs unfinished on the assembly line, and another corp member gets in the rorqual, that new corp member cannot start new jobs on the in use assembly lines (even though they show as READY). The original installer of those jobs will have to get in the rorqual and clear the lines.
4) Ore compression continued, continued: Can we not make jobs run multiple times? To do ore compression at maximum efficiency, it takes (I kid you not) one click every 6 seconds for 5 minutes straight. And that's for one cycle of the rorq's siege module. Giving jobs the ability to be run more than once, or better yet run until the supply of ore is depleted, would be huge. HUGE.
5) Ore compression, the final: Does anyone outside of W-space even do ore compression? This isn't really a bug needing fixing, I'm just curious if the nullsec denizens even care about it, or if they just jump freighter their raw ore to a station or outpost with max skills and implants to do their refining on the spot. Nullseccers have it so easy.

That's all I've got for now. If anyone wants to hear more, I may get drunk at fanfest and go off on an indy carebear rant about these topics to anyone who will listen.
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#212 - 2013-04-02 20:26:53 UTC
Kennesaw Breach wrote:
silens vesica wrote:
If you've got full capacity in the WH, money becomes less of a concern. I only venture out of the WH now to get those necessary components for fuel blocks & munitions that I can't source/create locally. If I had better refining capacity, I'd venture out even less.


I have lived exclusively in W-space for the past 2 years, and I am not in favor of any changes that make WH dwellers less reliant on having to travel outside their own systems.
Personally, I don't much care, one way or another - Was just answering a question.
Hell, most of the Corp never comes into the WH - Which means I *do* need to venture out occsaionally to make deliveries (and sell loot). But my primary burn on cash is for fuel and munitions spares - So a change in refinery efficiency would definately make changes in how often you'd see me in K-Space.

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc
Aineko Macx
#213 - 2013-04-02 20:35:01 UTC
xttz wrote:
a) Starbase weapon rebalancing
b) Centralised ammo mananagement
c) Starbase Defense Management UI
d) Auditing

^^ This

And
- Moon mining and reactions UI
- Centralized input/output hangars for labs
- Actually allowing and controlling alliance use of labs

iveeCore 3.0: The PHP engine for industrial activities and CREST library
Tennessee Jack
Doomheim
#214 - 2013-04-02 20:35:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Tennessee Jack
Infinite Force wrote:
bruestle2 wrote:
I love all these POS changes!

However, 10k-40k m3 is a TINY amount per person. If you are a miner, you can fill that up in under an hour with one barge! When combined with the 3 hour cycle time of the Intensive Refining Array, I don't see how this will work for WH miners.

Also, can we do something about the intensive refining array? It takes up 4k cpu and 750k pg, takes 3 hours to run, refines at 70% (unaffected by skills), can only refine one type of ore at a time, and doesn't even have tabs! The medium intensive is identical except it takes 1/2 the fitting (still at ton), takes 1.5 hours to run, and holds 1/8th as much.


Agreed, 10 - 40k is a tiny amount. You could, alternatively, just anchor another CHA and drop stuff into a tab that you have access to (all players maybe, or something similar)?

Go here ... and support the refinery cause!!!



I get what they are aiming at though, if you really wanted it to work, it would have to be dynamic, or assignable (neither would work out well and would become a management nightmare). I suppose if you want private storage, that would work. If you want MASS storage, well then you have the original Corporation Hanger.

The concept of a personal space was to keep your private things you like... well.. private.

I am not worried about someone trying to "Steal my ore from the Corporation Hanger". I'm worried about them stealing the shiny sh-t I like.

The more I read CCP's answer, the more I like it. I "Would" create a shared space in that hanger (shared tab, that has a high volume (lets say 200,000m3) which is accessable globally by everybody, along with their private space. So at least people can dump ore, modules, etc temporarly, before moving them or shipping them off, or putting them on ships.

The reason I suggest this.. it helps remove the whole "jettison Enormous Freight Container in Space Syndrome" for shared space.

If the hanger stays at 1.4 million.. If the private space is set at 10,000m3, the hanger could fit 120 people, and have 200,000m3 left in shared space.

If it has 20,000m3, it can fit 60 people. Considering the average person can run 2 to 10 alt accounts, with 3 alts each, technically, 2 people could fill up the hanger with their alts and their crap. Another viability for the shared space in the hanger itself.
Lunaleil Fournier
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#215 - 2013-04-02 20:48:04 UTC
I think it's a good start.

Any thoughts on changing the time it takes to setup/deconstruct a starbase?
Refining & Building changes would encourage a lot more players to use POS's if they could at all be fit in.
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#216 - 2013-04-02 20:48:43 UTC
I'm sorry but what type of people are your targeting EXACTLY with your new instancied CHA feature ?

Wormholes ? Who would use this if in case of an emergency EVAC, if directors can't move your stuff out while you're at work ?

Known space ? They have stations, working just fine, but without m3 limitations.

You're loosing a lot of precious dev time to create an useless module, far BELOW our expectations about a POS rewamp. GG CCP.

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Ryunosuke Kusanagi
#217 - 2013-04-02 20:57:42 UTC
Okay I understand the direction you are going with this, basically you are turning Starbases into upgraded Player Owned Custom Offices (for lack of better descriptions) in terms of interfacing. One thing I have a question is, is there going to be a total limit on starbase hangars? For example, a small pos would have, naturally, a smaller hangar, lets say 10km3 / player. A large would probably have 40km3 / player. So my question is, is there a cap on how many items or how much storage TOTAL is there? A corp with 1000 players using 10km3 would reach 10 MILLION m3 of items, for a small pos, 40mil for a large. Thats quite a bit of stuff to be able to be put into a pos hangar in relation to the size of the pos itself :)
Tennessee Jack
Doomheim
#218 - 2013-04-02 20:57:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Tennessee Jack
Altrue wrote:
I'm sorry but what type of people are your targeting EXACTLY with your new instancied CHA feature ?

Wormholes ? Who would use this if in case of an emergency EVAC, if directors can't move your stuff out while you're at work ?

Known space ? They have stations, working just fine, but without m3 limitations.

You're loosing a lot of precious dev time to create an useless module, far BELOW our expectations about a POS rewamp. GG CCP.


The denial of Anybody having access to the private tabs I see as a issue, more logistically than anything else. I think that should be changed, the highest persons's (or the person with the role "Private Storage Management" should be able to move stuff OUT of private storage. Whether they can move stuff into it is another matter.

The module is not useless, it just needs to be tested, tried out, then reviewed and adjusted. There are 4 types of people to test it out on (that I could identify).


1) Mega corporations, who have hundreds of members.
2) Large Wormhole Groups, who live solely out of POS's
3) Miners/Ore gatherers, who mine for a living (and take up allot of space)
4) Manufacturers, who use POS's to build stuff, sometimes very LARGE things.

Ryunosuke Kusanagi wrote:
Okay I understand the direction you are going with this, basically you are turning Starbases into upgraded Player Owned Custom Offices (for lack of better descriptions) in terms of interfacing. One thing I have a question is, is there going to be a total limit on starbase hangars? For example, a small pos would have, naturally, a smaller hangar, lets say 10km3 / player. A large would probably have 40km3 / player. So my question is, is there a cap on how many items or how much storage TOTAL is there? A corp with 1000 players using 10km3 would reach 10 MILLION m3 of items, for a small pos, 40mil for a large. Thats quite a bit of stuff to be able to be put into a pos hangar in relation to the size of the pos itself :)


I think for this initial iteration, they aren't expecting this one hanger to deal or manage 1000 people. I think they have a estimated target that 1 of these hangers should accomodate.

And nothing is stopping you from anchoring 2 or 3 of these, and just telling people "Use hanger 2".
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#219 - 2013-04-02 21:01:33 UTC
It's true that you can just use the normal corp hangars to avoid losing stuff - but then you really have the same issue as now not knowing who has what and why because you only have 7 seperated places to put stuff pr array.
Maybe give players an option to allow directors/ceo's access to personal pos space - like a tick box?

I don't mind people having to make a choice and potentially losing stuff but I thought most of the revamp was to help players and get around the old beaurocratic ways of pos handling... :-)
Good work - will be looking forward to seing the finished product.

Pinky
CCP Masterplan
C C P
C C P Alliance
#220 - 2013-04-02 21:01:37 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Quote:
Accessing starbase arrays from anywhere within the shield

The requirement to move within range of each and every starbase structure to access their storage is a major annoyance for most starbase users, and one we are working to fix. Thanks to new advances in starbase technology, tiny drones will now carry items to and fro within the shield bubble. This changes the POS module access range to instead check that your ship is inside the shield, allowing players to access all the structures from one location.


Interesting... Does this mean if the POS is offline, or online without a shield, you cannot access any materials in any starbase structures because there is no shield to be "within"?

Rather than 'within the shield' it will probably end as 'within 15/20/30 km of the tower', which is almost the same thing. But I'll know more for sure once I start working on it this/next week. The normal rules of what can/cannot be accessed when a tower is offline/reinforced will be unchanged.

For those asking about structures that have to be outside the shield, such as guns, those will probably still require you to be within range of the specific structure itself (but this depends on how it looks once I start diving in to it)

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