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Give freighters low slots.
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Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#61 - 2013-04-03 19:15:08 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
John Brewster wrote:

Let's take an imaginary freighter, now.
It has speed 100, hitpoints 100, and cargo 100.

You change the stats so it has 1 low slot, and speed 110, hitpoints 110, and cargo 90.

You put a cargo extender, which gives (it's an example, I know the real numbers are different, you just need to make a nice equation and solve it, if you want the real numbers) speed -10%, hitpoints -10% and cargo +10%. More or less similar to the real cargo extender.



so u then put in a DC and get over double the current freighters tank for a minor loss in capacity and still move faster. not overpowered at all.


Yep, your EHP would go up by about 110%. Put reinforced bulkhead IIs on there and get around a 150% boost in HP with 1,or a 215% boost in HP with 2. just due to the improved structure HP and resists alone.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Dave Stark
#62 - 2013-04-03 19:18:08 UTC
mining ships aren't ganked any more because it's not profitable. it has nothing to do with ehp vs cost of ship. it's cost to blow it up vs cost of what you get for blowing it up.

that's pretty much what all suicide ganks are about. also "cost" doesn't have to be isk.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#63 - 2013-04-03 19:32:13 UTC
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:

So we have gone from only a few per month to often having over 50 in a month.

I agree that this does not line up with the introduction of T3 BC's but it does line up with the buff to mining ships in the fall of 2012.

At this time miner ganking dropped off as mining ships were no longer easy gank targets. Many of those gankers switched to ganking freighters and haulers.


Really, in looking at the EHP of a mackinaw and a skiff, and they are impressive since the changes, I think 8 talos' could burn through them. If Goons wanted to gank miners with tier 3 BCs they would. They merely switched targets because people are being dumb and loading up freighters with cargo worth 4-5 billion isk and they can run a sustainable gank operation.

Reduce the value of your cargo, use a scout to check obvious ganks systems, dock up periodically while en route to throw off the gankers, and don't double wrap stuff for the love of God.

Your an idiot,
The reson mining ships are not ganked as often is not because they can not be, but because the 2 talos or 6-9 Cataylsts it would take cost more than the mining ship is worth.

It is not just about the ehp, but the ehp compared to the cost of the hull. Yes you can still gank mining ships, but they are no longer the kill board PADing they once were. You can and often will lose more in ships than the ship you gank is worth. Thus the ganking of them has dropped.

For eample a MACK cost what about 200M. A Gank fit Talos costs about 80M. A Talos does about 16,000 damage before getting CONCORDED. So you need 2 Talos to Kill a MACK with 20-30k ehp. Not much buffer there. A few failed ganks and your kill board will be going the wrong way. Kill board padding is what most ganking is all about.

But a freighter, even with ZERO cargo can be ganked and provide up to 850M worth of kill board PADing. Even with an empty cargohold. 1.5B for the HULL. 650M for the gank fleet after factoring in the recovery of dropped mods and salvage from the 8 Talos. That is a difference of 850M. a nice kill board pad for the effort. Much much better than you now get from killing miners.

That is where the problem lies.


Learn to read. I didn't say it was profitable, but that if Goons wanted to do it, it would happen. Goons are stupid rich as an alliance. The could throw away billions of isk in such an effort and still be stupid rich.

And what happened to your: they do it just to pad their killboard, not to make a profit argument?

That you want to have your cake and eat it too, is duly noted.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#64 - 2013-04-03 19:47:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
I'll also add that since the view is that freighters are ganked due to the loot drops...the solution is mother ******* obvious....reduce the cargo value FFS.

Problem solved.

No need to buff freighters so they are coming close to the HP of dreads (untanked).

JFCOAFP

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#65 - 2013-04-03 20:44:43 UTC
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:

pure ignorance


ur the idiot here. u can gank 200mil hulks with a a few 2mil catalysts. and this does happen because the T2 salvage u usually get from hulks will cover the cost of many catalysts. (i'd like to point out that it would take more catalysts if ppl tanked, but they dont).

kill board padding is not a common reason for ganking. ur either completely ignorant, or just plain talking out ur arse when u say padding is what most ganking is about. or u could prove me wrong by posting kill mails that were clearly motivated by padding. if there are as many such ganks as u say, it should not take u long to find 5.

even if the gank goes completely **** up and u fail, it has no adverse affect on ur kill board like u suggest. losses to concord do not show up on killboards unless the loss mail is posted.

u completely discredit ur side of the argument with ur ill-thought, BS posting.

there is at least one good argument for giving freighters slots and that is variety and customisation and, for the record, that only doesnt work because it could be exploited to bring caps to hi-sec or uber tanked freighters. personally i think a better solution would be to ask for new ships that can be designed with arbitrary limits. e.g. a mini freighter.

if all u want is tank, then what u need is a jump freighter.

between a mini-freighter, typical freighter, and a jump freighter, u have everything u need.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#66 - 2013-04-03 21:45:21 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:


if all u want is tank, then what u need is a jump freighter.


Yep, less cargo space, 60+% more tank, faster, and less cargo space....sounds like what the OP was asking for.

Geez, look at that an existing ship...so yeah, lets buff freighters anyways and waste Dev time on nonsense.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Cardano Firesnake
Fire Bullet Inc
#67 - 2013-04-05 11:17:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Cardano Firesnake
A Jump Freighter cost is about six times more than a standard freighter. It is not the same thing. In fact as it have no slot either it should be modified too I think.

So, the Idea is that a modified freighter would have the same HP, Same speed and same Cargo capacity as now if it is fitted with 3 Expanded Cargohold II.
When you will remove the cargohold you will gain HP, and speed and a low slot to add tank or speed or a Gyrostabilizer if you want even it would be useless.

I think this solution would make the freighter more interestening to play.

The fact that some of you guys need proof to see that the number of freighter ganks have increase is quite strange. During thelast 2 months I saw 5 freighters destroyed in my entourage. That never happened before. I do not think it is a coincidence.

Posted - 2010.07.01 11:24:00 - [4] Erase learning skills, remap all SP. That's all.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#68 - 2013-04-05 21:29:17 UTC
Cardano Firesnake wrote:
A Jump Freighter cost is about six times more than a standard freighter. It is not the same thing. In fact as it have no slot either it should be modified too I think.

So, the Idea is that a modified freighter would have the same HP, Same speed and same Cargo capacity as now if it is fitted with 3 Expanded Cargohold II.
When you will remove the cargohold you will gain HP, and speed and a low slot to add tank or speed or a Gyrostabilizer if you want even it would be useless.

I think this solution would make the freighter more interestening to play.

The fact that some of you guys need proof to see that the number of freighter ganks have increase is quite strange. During thelast 2 months I saw 5 freighters destroyed in my entourage. That never happened before. I do not think it is a coincidence.



Tell us again how your personal unsubstantiated anecdote is 100% fact for every EVE player ever!

Or, even better, I've never had a freighter ganked therefore there is no such thing as freighter ganking.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#69 - 2013-04-06 00:46:18 UTC
Cardano Firesnake wrote:
A Jump Freighter cost is about six times more than a standard freighter. It is not the same thing. In fact as it have no slot either it should be modified too I think.

So, the Idea is that a modified freighter would have the same HP, Same speed and same Cargo capacity as now if it is fitted with 3 Expanded Cargohold II.
When you will remove the cargohold you will gain HP, and speed and a low slot to add tank or speed or a Gyrostabilizer if you want even it would be useless.

I think this solution would make the freighter more interestening to play.

The fact that some of you guys need proof to see that the number of freighter ganks have increase is quite strange. During thelast 2 months I saw 5 freighters destroyed in my entourage. That never happened before. I do not think it is a coincidence.


now put a DC and bulk heads on ur freighter and watch it fly faster and its EHP reach dreadnought levels for almost zero costs or penalties.

if u dnt think that is overpowered u are blinded by ur bias. this is coming from a player with several freighter capable pilots that spend a lot of time hauling.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#70 - 2013-04-06 06:17:44 UTC
Cardano Firesnake wrote:

The fact that some of you guys need proof to see that the number of freighter ganks have increase is quite strange. During thelast 2 months I saw 5 freighters destroyed in my entourage. That never happened before. I do not think it is a coincidence.


That other people's game play has changed that impacts you, in this game that means you must modify your own game play.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#71 - 2013-04-06 12:22:00 UTC
I don't care if there are more or less freighter ganks but i have always found it odd to have ships like freighters in a game that is built around the customization of fittings etc.

Imagine if for example carriers or dreads had only highslots for you to fit with ehp, resists and everything else predetermined ready for known weaknesses to be exploited. As it stands you can now calculate very precisely the amount of dps you need to gank an freighter with minimal losses.

Stop making excuses that it gives the ability to bring capitals to high sec there will be many ways to restrict this from happening.
And for you who can be now ganked by just 4 taloses for example, it's about decisions. If you only will be hauling low cost stuff that takes a lot of space you could fill the lows with cargo expanders that lower your ehp knowing the risks and with expensive stuff you would fit it with ehp. Just like what is done with the smaller haulers and orca.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#72 - 2013-04-06 15:27:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Johnson Oramara wrote:
I don't care if there are more or less freighter ganks but i have always found it odd to have ships like freighters in a game that is built around the customization of fittings etc.

Imagine if for example carriers or dreads had only highslots for you to fit with ehp, resists and everything else predetermined ready for known weaknesses to be exploited. As it stands you can now calculate very precisely the amount of dps you need to gank an freighter with minimal losses.

Stop making excuses that it gives the ability to bring capitals to high sec there will be many ways to restrict this from happening.
And for you who can be now ganked by just 4 taloses for example, it's about decisions. If you only will be hauling low cost stuff that takes a lot of space you could fill the lows with cargo expanders that lower your ehp knowing the risks and with expensive stuff you would fit it with ehp. Just like what is done with the smaller haulers and orca.


Here is the deal...which is why I don't get all the freaking whine....

People want freighters to be buffed so that:

With appropriate low slot fittings you get back to the original freighter which if you fill that up badly will lead to the ganks people are whining and whining about.

Or, you can fit a freighter with a tank and considerably less cargo hold space.....

Which if you go with the original freighter and don't fill up the considerable cargo space with excessively valuable cargo you'll vastly reduce the risk of ganks.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2838491#post2838491

So, the simplest solution for reducing freighter ganking isn't to customize the ships, but to "customize" your cargo. If you pack your freighter with tritanium, I doubt you'll get ganked. The very same low value cargo you talk about you can carry just as safely now as you can after the change.

Or to put it another way, to make a freighter capable of hauling as much as it can now in terms of space with the desired changes you are back to the current situation where you have to haul low value cargo. If you want to haul higher value cargo and thus fit a tank you are restricted as to cargo hold size...about the size of the current JF cargo hold. A ship with about 68% more EHP (using the Charon/Rhea)--i.e. it is harder to gank. And if we go with a linear increase in cargo value put 1.2 billion in your JF and you are good. Which is close to the lower bound some have stated as "reasonable" in this thread.

As for your comparison to carriers/dreads please. Those ships have more than one purpose. A freighter on the other hand has one role, haul large volumes ( over 35,000m3).

And I don't think 4 taloses is sufficient to gank a freighter. I have yet to see such a kill mail and I've looked at dozens or mails and typically they have multiples of 4.

Added via edit in case this thing rises to the top again....

Stop being EFT warriors when it comes to freighter ganking. Yes, 5 taloses or maybe 4 could, in theory gank a low skilled freighter pilot. However, not every shot is going to hit perfectly. The DPS is actually an estimate. This is why Goons will typically use a gank squad of about 16.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online