Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Ok, but that is a huge boost in terms of EHP for the freighter so that suicide ganking would be very hard if you went with no expanders and didn't even fit a tank. That would boost the base EHP of an obelisk (with no tank mods fit) to over 305,000 EHP (that is base--i.e. with no skills taken into acount). That is more than my Rhea gets with my freighter alt who has fairly decent skills. With skills the EHP could go over 500,000...with no tank yet. Put a tank on it and you would go considerably higher. Just a damage control module II would likely add at least 150,000 EHP just for the structure alone, all together the ship could have something silly lik 750,000 EHP. You are talking something like a 3.5-4x increase in EHP.

If we go with the 6 man tier 3 BC gank squad, a modest tank on the obelisk would necessitate a 20 man squad, maybe a bit more due to timing/coordination issues.

You can currently move around high sec with a minor bit of precaution. Don't autopilot through known gank systems. Carry smaller/less valuable cargo are the two most common. And with the addition of auto docking when on autopilot this is even easier. You autopilot up to Uedama, then auto dock. When you come back to the game, then you manually fly through Uedama, and re-engage autopilot.

There is no need for this kind of a buff to freighters given that there are other areas of the game that have need serious attention.



Depends on what you are hauling. Some things you can use quite a bit of the space. For example, if you are going to haul fitted ships you will likely have little issue filling the cargo bay. If you are hauling something small but very valuable you wont use it all.



Nope. The idea that you can stuff your freighter till it is full, irrespective of value, and then feel you should be able to run around from system to system with considerable safety is not necessarily balanced either.



And you can. Go buy up 85 million units of tritanium and haul it around New Eden. I doubt anyone will gank you for that since hauling that cargo away will be a huge PITA.

Why not ask for a new ship type? That's an acceptable option... but it might make freighters obsolete... although if you're thinking another type of t2 freighter for this, its price would probably make t1 freighters still viable from an economics standpoint.

Why should the freighter have such high EHP? It is a capital ship... An unfit orca has 80-90k EHP. The 100k EHP was a ballpark for the base freighter hitpoints, and it seems reasonable to me... Remember, Expanded cargo holds reduce Structure by 20% each, and cargo optimization rigs reduce armor by 10% each. Fitting for "cargo" includes a "reduce your EHP" penalty.

"I just don't see why nerfing the optimized freighter helps: But a freighter is NOT optimized...

A suicide ganker optimizes the EHP of the target to the value of the loot. A freighter has 150-200k EHP, which takes 6-8 Talos to destroy it in the 20s concord response window. Their cost (750-1b), combined with a 50% drop rate, means any freighter with 2+b isk is potentially profitable. I'll liberally estimate 4b or more is their target limit. They optimize their operation around an isk/EHP limit (lowballed at 200 m isk / 10k EHP), but this simplifies to a straight isk "limit" (4b isk) since freighters have a static EHP!

An "optimized" freighter also balances around isk. They would take the most m3 they can, in the least amount of trips, while maintaining a safe isk/EHP balance. But, since they have a static amount of EHP and a static amount of cargo volume. The only thing they can change is how much of their cargo space they use for a single trip. There is NO ship optimization, only cargo load optimization. Most of the time, to carry a load safely, you only utilize 10-20% of your cargo space or you become a loot pinata!!!! How do you possibly justify "the ship is Optimized"????

I'm really looking for a reason why allowing freighter pilots to reduce their cargo capacity in exchange for an increase in EHP would be negative...

if it was the only ship in its class, it would still be useful and how exactly would u know if it was good or bad?
if the pre-nerf drake and canes were the only BC's available, how would u know if they were overpowered or underpowered?
you couldnt know. just like u cant know for sure if freighters are underperforming. u may as well try to balance a mining barge against a battleship.

i'd agree that there was a lack of competition for freighters, and i've even +1'd the thread for a mini freighter. but i have yet to see anything that justifies giving freighters more tank. it would just encourage idiots to try and cram even more valuable goods in them, and then cry that freighters need even MOAR tank...and so goes the power creep. a complete non-necessity when u can just reduce ur load, pay attention to ur waypoints or ask budskies for help.

dnt ask CCP to change the game because u want afk-hauling through 0.5 to be safer. thats just pure and lazy greed.

Hey, good stuff....

So for comparison purpose and keeping in mind this is a very crude test,

http://eve-kill.net/?a=home&m=03&y=2011&view=kills&scl_id=20

Freighter kills in March 2011 (2 years ago). In March 2011 there were 3 pages of freighter kills, in March 2013 7 pages. In April 2011, again 3 pages. 2 pages in May 2011. Back up to 3 in June. In June 2012 again, 2 pages. 4 pages in August 2012. 5 in October 2012. 7 pages in November.

Now, I don't know the exact dates here, but tier 3 BCs were introduced in Crucible, no? Crucible came out in late 2011. Based on the above data freighter ganking was pretty flat up to about August 2012. That is, it took awhile after tier 3 BCs were introduced for freighter ganking to go up.

Now it is possible the page count is being influenced by war decs and awoxing, but that doesn't help the claim of "Tier 3 BCs => more freighter ganking". Maybe it is due to people just not catching on fast...but I find this even less appealing.

So yes, freighter ganking is up, but the reason does not appear to be linked to tier 3 BCs.

Additional data points:

3/2012--4 pages
4/2012--5 pages
5/2012--3 pages
7/2012--3 pages

1/2013--4 pages
2/2013--4 pages

So it might also be the case that March 2013 with its 7 pages is an aberation--i.e. an outlier and should be given less weight.

To reiterate, this is a crude test, using page counts. But it at least gives us some data to look at. Did tier 3 BCs lead to more freighter ganking? Probably, but only slightly (using the measure presented here, 4 pages of freighter kills vs. 3). Is that "skyrocketing"? No.

Now, if those who want to make the claim that tier 3 BCs necessitate buffing freighters want to keep going, I suggest they take a closer look at this data and see if there is anything there than can support their claims. Right now, I see damn little.

TL:DR: Fly smarter and you'll fly safer...especially true when you are in a freighter.

And look...a possible explanation...

http://themittani.com/features/ministry-love-200-freighters-and-counting

So, in October 2012 we see a post announcing the creation of the Ministry of Love by Goonswarm. That is, a very large alliance, that is at the center of an even larger coalition has set up a sub-organization that is dedicated to ganking hi-sec freighters.

So...are tier 3 BCs to blame? Seems unlikely. In fact, I bet Goonswarm and Miniluv would be ganking in whatever they thought was best even if tier 3 BCs did not exist.

Even still, the increase in the number of freighter ganks is not "exploding"....even with Goons running around shooting these big fat ships.

so? a ships ability to survive is independent of its own isk cost, otherwise procurors would cost more than hulks. considering the ganked ship itself is not retrievable when it is destroyed, its value is irrelevant.



one should also consider the increasing population of new eden. there are more freighter pilots and gankers today than there were two years ago.

are u also including null and low kills? cause i wouldnt consider the recent freight clubs work as ganking

Freighter Kills in Uedema.... It's safe to assume these are 99% suicide ganks...

Dec-08 0
Jan-09 0
Feb-09 2
Mar-09 10
Apr-09 0
May-09 0
Jun-09 0
Jul-09 0
Aug-09 2
Sep-09 2
Oct-09 5
Nov-09 2
Dec-09 1
Jan-10 3
Feb-10 9
Mar-10 5
Apr-10 3
May-10 3
Jun-10 2
Jul-10 1
Aug-10 1
Sep-10 0
Oct-10 2
Nov-10 1
Dec-10 1
Jan-11 0
Feb-11 2
Mar-11 1
Apr-11 4
May-11 0
Jun-11 2 (EvE in Revolt)
Jul-11 3
Aug-11 1
Sep-11 1
Oct-11 13
Nov-11 9 (Crucible released Nov 29th: tier 3 BC's added, insurance for suicide ganks removed)
Dec-11 6
Jan-12 4
Feb-12 4
Mar-12 20
Apr-12 6
May-12 1
Jun-12 3
Jul-12 0
Aug-12 28
Sep-12 50 from the 9th to the 30th.... so probably close to 70...
Oct-12 50 from the 6th to the 31rst... so probably close to 60...
Nov-12 50 from the 17th to the 30th... so probably closer to 100...
Dec-12 11
Jan-13 13
Feb-13 3
Mar-13 50 from the 3rd to the 31rst

The Aug 2012 - Nov 2012 spike is the work of Goon's Ministry of Love...

So, what does this mean....
While this is a limited data set, it kind of supports "The number of Freighters destroyed in Highsec have exploded since the T3 BC". However, your statement is inaccurate, as it implies Tier3 BC's are responsible for the increase in freighter ganks... The reality is the "exploding" number of highsec freighter kills is due to the Goonswarm's Ministry of Love campaign... who not only utilized the tactic to amazing success, but also published the tactic to be emulated by the masses.

The tier 3 BC is the current ship of choice.... although it is NOT the only ship utilized... you can occasional killmails using destroyer and/or cruiser swarms, and battleships were the most prominent tool prior to Crucible... Battleships were phased out with Crucible, and not because of the new tier 3 BC's, but rather from the removal of insurance on suicide ganking ships!

So we have gone from only a few per month to often having over 50 in a month.

I agree that this does not line up with the introduction of T3 BC's but it does line up with the buff to mining ships in the fall of 2012.

At this time miner ganking dropped off as mining ships were no longer easy gank targets. Many of those gankers switched to ganking freighters and haulers.

If you also look at the number of kills for other high sec haulers I believe you will see a similar trend.

Everything from T1 haulers to DST's, ORCA's, and any other hull commonly used for hauling are now the new gank targets.

I am not saying mining ships no longer get ganked, bu the gankers that did it for profit are now targeting haulers.

A 20 million isk Catayst can easily kill even a tanked T1 hauler that used to be considered safe with up to 100M in cargo. Gank these for profit.

ORCA's no longer have the unscanable corp hanger that doesn't drop loot. thye now have a scanable fleet hanger that does drop loot.

freighters are not the only haulers being targeted, just the most valuable.

so u then put in a DC and get over double the current freighters tank for a minor loss in capacity and still move faster. not overpowered at all.

Really, in looking at the EHP of a mackinaw and a skiff, and they are impressive since the changes, I think 8 talos' could burn through them. If Goons wanted to gank miners with tier 3 BCs they would. They merely switched targets because people are being dumb and loading up freighters with cargo worth 4-5 billion isk and they can run a sustainable gank operation.

Reduce the value of your cargo, use a scout to check obvious ganks systems, dock up periodically while en route to throw off the gankers, and don't double wrap stuff for the love of God.