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Resource Redistribution
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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#101 - 2013-04-03 18:50:28 UTC
Moon mining is passive.

Ore/ice mining is active.

Both are done with different parameters and different rates as to not be competitive nor comparable.

Period.

1 person cannot control a moongoo pos by your claim, and you would need many people to mine ice at a certain rate in order to have the equal amount of moongoo value.

1 is needed to click a button every few minutes a few times per hour, whereas one needs to be clicked 1 every what, week? But do not require any sort of login at any other time, and even works during downtime.

Is also in limited amount versus not limited amount.

Is rumored to be a "conflict" driver (heh).

Yet are compared? or used to compete with wallets?

Is this a stealth nerf highsec thread by a nullsec entity?

What exactly are you clamoring for? What changes are you proposing?

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Felicity Love
Doomheim
#102 - 2013-04-03 19:05:54 UTC
Ice belts will be set to deplete, if not removed outright and the "ice" redistributed as scannable sites.

The same with asteroid belts. No such thing in Wormholes, where you have to scan down Grav sites, so the mechanic is already in widespread use.

Hence the big deal about scanning also being revamped for the same Expansion.

CCP has nerfed ice belts before, so it's not like it's as much of a sacred cow as some folks like to think.

Or maybe "superveld" is all we'll get... and won't that just be so nifty as to warrant an Expansion. P

"EVE is dying." -- The Four Forum Trolls of the Apocalypse.   ( Pick four, any four. They all smell.  )
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog
B.L.U.E L.A.S.E.R.
#103 - 2013-04-03 19:48:22 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Emu Meo wrote:
CCP has already said they do not like passive incomes, so sorry but don't expect the tech moon gravy train to be going on forever.

Who said it would?

And even if they don't remove moonmining, replacing it with a ****-poor excuse for a mechanic which causes people to commit in-game suicide due to burnout isn't the answer. That mechanic would, in case you're wondering, be "moon mineral depletion", regardless of the timeframe of said depletion.


You know what would be just as awesome as moon mining depletion? If hi-sec agents had a set quantity of missions to give out every day, and once they'd handed them out, they moved to another NPC corp and based into another system and randomised their agent level.

And because after all, a hi-sec agent can produce vastly more wealth than a tech moon, I suggest that the mission cap be set proportionately low. Does 6 sound about right? Maybe 10, although i'm worried that allowing so much wealth to be produced from an invulnerable resource is too generous.


That's definitely one way to look at it - nerf a portion of the game that people actually interact with on a regular basis to bring it down to what you consider average moon goo profit levels.

Or, we could go the other way with it, and compare moon goo to something that actually makes sense - PI. Let's just make it so PI pulls in about 7 million isk/hour, like moon goo! That'll make moon goo largely useless, and generate a lot more bottom-up revenue!

Stop with the full ****** analogies, the forums are dumb enough as it is.

I am not an alt of Chribba.
Davenchi
C.A.T.F.I.S.H
#104 - 2013-04-03 20:06:56 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Ace Uoweme wrote:
The problem EvE has is an old mindset of mat distribution.

I don't like mats in one area with NPCs spawning around to harass you. It's so scripted. The PvP element is also so scripted.

What's fun is having opportunities to ninja mine, though. Best mining experience I had isn't in some gang, it's sneaking into null and getting the mats and getting them back (oh, yeah I'm getting max refining, ABC ores are too bulky to bring back in some crushed can Venture).

Would rather have an interceptor like mining vessel that can ninja mine and swifty (mining yield at 100% with a 5000m3 hold deal). This can shake up those nullbears armed to the teeth, thinking they're immuned to invaders at their door -- and redistribute the resources among anyone willing to take the risks. And boy is it fun mining like that, and giving those guys the finger in the process.

Twisted


You seem to have some wrong assumptions about the value of mining Technetium. A Tech pos makes 7.2 million ISK per hour. A Mack mining Veldspar in empire makes about 10M/hr last I checked.


Seriously? You seem to be the one with the wrong assumption. You want to compare mining with a Mack to moon mining? You’re going to sit at your screen and mine 23/7? No I don’t think so. I can’t believe your trying to even compare apples to onions.
Emu Meo
Doomheim
#105 - 2013-04-03 20:20:59 UTC
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Emu Meo wrote:
CCP has already said they do not like passive incomes, so sorry but don't expect the tech moon gravy train to be going on forever.

Who said it would?

And even if they don't remove moonmining, replacing it with a ****-poor excuse for a mechanic which causes people to commit in-game suicide due to burnout isn't the answer. That mechanic would, in case you're wondering, be "moon mineral depletion", regardless of the timeframe of said depletion.


You know what would be just as awesome as moon mining depletion? If hi-sec agents had a set quantity of missions to give out every day, and once they'd handed them out, they moved to another NPC corp and based into another system and randomised their agent level.

And because after all, a hi-sec agent can produce vastly more wealth than a tech moon, I suggest that the mission cap be set proportionately low. Does 6 sound about right? Maybe 10, although i'm worried that allowing so much wealth to be produced from an invulnerable resource is too generous.


That's definitely one way to look at it - nerf a portion of the game that people actually interact with on a regular basis to bring it down to what you consider average moon goo profit levels.

Or, we could go the other way with it, and compare moon goo to something that actually makes sense - PI. Let's just make it so PI pulls in about 7 million isk/hour, like moon goo! That'll make moon goo largely useless, and generate a lot more bottom-up revenue!

Stop with the full ****** analogies, the forums are dumb enough as it is.


Yes, kind of depressing that that is the calibre of CSM candidates which we have.
Emu Meo
Doomheim
#106 - 2013-04-03 20:29:15 UTC
The thread is missing the real point here in my opinion. Yes it is possible to compete with moon goo income, the issue is, is moon mining in its current form conducive to interesting a fun gameplay?

In my opinion, and also I believe CCPs opinion, it is not. It encourages a static and defensive behaviour with null entities unwilling to fight. So in essence, I think CCP will overhaul things as they clearly say they want null sec to become vibrant again as the clear opinion is that it has stagnated.

Arguing against tech moon changes is like trying to argue against the tide coming in.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#107 - 2013-04-03 20:29:31 UTC
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog wrote:
That's definitely one way to look at it - nerf a portion of the game that people actually interact with on a regular basis to bring it down to what you consider average moon goo profit levels.

Or, we could go the other way with it, and compare moon goo to something that actually makes sense - PI. Let's just make it so PI pulls in about 7 million isk/hour, like moon goo! That'll make moon goo largely useless, and generate a lot more bottom-up revenue!

Stop with the full ****** analogies, the forums are dumb enough as it is.



How many systems have you scanned for moon goo?

Having moongoo redistribute among the 160,000 mineable moons would be akin to having l4 agents be randomly redistributed among all stations with no agent finder.

It's a pretty apt analogy.

He's not suggesting that CCP do either. He's just pointing out the scale on which redistribution schemes for moongoo are ****.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Emu Meo
Doomheim
#108 - 2013-04-03 20:33:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Emu Meo
Here is another anology - Tech moons in their current form is akin to having all wormhole and exploration signaures static and fixed in space never respawning. Ie once you've scanned them down, you never need to scan them down again.

Part of the interesting behaviour of wormholes and exploration sites are their dynamic behaviour.

You can make these analogies comparing apples to onions as the previous poster said, usually they are not of much use though.
forestwho
Doomheim
#109 - 2013-04-03 20:34:04 UTC
Pl just took a region to rent out for income so yeah Tech gets nerfed and probaly that region gets a omg wtf buff
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#110 - 2013-04-03 20:34:45 UTC
Emu Meo wrote:
The thread is missing the real point here in my opinion. Yes it is possible to compete with moon goo income, the issue is, is moon mining in its current form conducive to interesting a fun gameplay?

In my opinion, and also I believe CCPs opinion, it is not. It encourages a static and defensive behaviour with null entities unwilling to fight. So in essence, I think CCP will overhaul things as they clearly say they want null sec to become vibrant again as the clear opinion is that it has stagnated.

Arguing against tech moon changes is like trying to argue against the tide coming in.


1. Nobody's arguing against Tech changes*. Just against bad ones.

2. Tech is not the reason for stagnation (If it were, why isn't the NC still around?). And (as evidenced by the recent Sov changes in the East) the so-called "static" nullsec isn't very.

*I have my personal favorite suggestion: roll back the blueprint changes introduced with the R64 nerf, let R64s be the income moons (because they're distributed all over the map), and fix Sov.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#111 - 2013-04-03 21:40:45 UTC
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog wrote:
Or, we could go the other way with it, and compare moon goo to something that actually makes sense - PI. Let's just make it so PI pulls in about 7 million isk/hour, like moon goo! That'll make moon goo largely useless, and generate a lot more bottom-up revenue!

PI can scale up to that level of income, yes. Per person, no, but then again, neither does tech moon give a single person 7m/hour income for very long, considering the fact that it would be taken away from that person the instant someone with a bigger fleet found out about it.

And when you compare how much one tech moon has to be spread out to cover that defense fleet (manpower-wise and with how many ships is lost to defend it, etc), that figure goes down dramatically. But for some reason, people never seem to want to think about that bit.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#112 - 2013-04-03 21:41:47 UTC
Emu Meo wrote:
Yes, kind of depressing that that is the calibre of CSM candidates which we have.

What's depressing is that you're incapable of seeing that that post was a tongue-in-cheek post.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#113 - 2013-04-03 21:46:01 UTC
Emu Meo wrote:
Here is another anology - Tech moons in their current form is akin to having all wormhole and exploration signaures static and fixed in space never respawning. Ie once you've scanned them down, you never need to scan them down again.

Part of the interesting behaviour of wormholes and exploration sites are their dynamic behaviour.

You can make these analogies comparing apples to onions as the previous poster said, usually they are not of much use though.

And interestingly enough, comparing "tech moons" to wormholes and exploration signatures is also comparing apples to oranges, because wormholes and exploration signatures don't need you to spend hours anchoring a POS and setting up a reaction farm to take proper advantage of a wormhole or an exploration signature, whereas to take advantage of any moongoo, the least amount of effort you have to do is haul in and anchor a POS with a miner and a silo, and to do a proper job of it you need to react that as well.

And I'm going to bet on you not having spent any time, at all, with the POS interface in this fashion.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
snake pies
Dixon Cox Butte Preservation Society
#114 - 2013-04-03 22:25:42 UTC
no one fights for "the best space" anymore, just money moons
Galan Amarias
Kantian Principle
#115 - 2013-04-03 22:49:17 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Galan Amarias wrote:
What is it with you and ninja mining? There is a mining frig thing, use it. I get getting into people's space and messing with them, but what the stuff, mining? Then what run it all the way back to high sec?


Scared?

It's a lot more fun flying into controlled territory stealing precious resources, than being some rabbit waiting to be ganked.

Imagine the tears of getting away with moon goo.......

And yes, in a ship so nimble to make it all possible.

I refer you to the tale of David vs Goliath. Lol


Why in EVE would I be scared of ninja miners? Best case they visciously make my ships cheaper, well best case I get to blow some up, but after that cheap ships.

I just don't see the fun of mining.
Ginger Barbarella
#116 - 2013-04-03 22:56:01 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
SmilingVagrant wrote:
I can't believe you are actually excited about sneaking into someones space and mining. It would be like breaking into a house and stealing a bic pen out of their desk then giving yourself a hug about it.


Now listen carefully, Grasshopper: swarms come in all sorts of variety. There's your type of swarm of kids without a clue. There's swarms that fight like killer bees; and there's swarms of blowflies that lay eggs that eat their hosts inside out.

Ninja mining is the latter.

Blob meet the ultimate blob eater.

Lol



A blob of one. I'm not entirely sure you really get it.

But go ahead and keep mining your 5k worth of ore from someone's Sov-held space if you want. Big accomplishment there.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#117 - 2013-04-03 23:43:53 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Lord Zim wrote:
Emu Meo wrote:
Here is another anology - Tech moons in their current form is akin to having all wormhole and exploration signaures static and fixed in space never respawning. Ie once you've scanned them down, you never need to scan them down again.

Part of the interesting behaviour of wormholes and exploration sites are their dynamic behaviour.

You can make these analogies comparing apples to onions as the previous poster said, usually they are not of much use though.

And interestingly enough, comparing "tech moons" to wormholes and exploration signatures is also comparing apples to oranges, because wormholes and exploration signatures don't need you to spend hours anchoring a POS and setting up a reaction farm to take proper advantage of a wormhole or an exploration signature, whereas to take advantage of any moongoo, the least amount of effort you have to do is haul in and anchor a POS with a miner and a silo, and to do a proper job of it you need to react that as well.

And I'm going to bet on you not having spent any time, at all, with the POS interface in this fashion.



Also the sites being made static would be paying out a heck of a lot more than a Tech moon, and there are a lot more of them.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#118 - 2013-04-04 00:45:53 UTC
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
A blob of one. I'm not entirely sure you really get it.


You do, but don't want to admit it.

Real innovative and emergent gameplay is countering the obstacles in the way.

How's the Burn Jita 2013 going to play out?

I can see Goons suiciding themselves to drive up some fake kills to make it look successful. But it's not innovative or emergent gameplay.

Goons can't admit they're yesterday's news.

It's more fun when Horde dragged Shandris Feathermoon into Org to wipe the city (healers, FTW)...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFuBmkVvUTQ

At least that was new and did actually wipe Org.

They did it for ***** and grins. You don't need to own an universe and try to own the market to have real fun!

Shhh...but don't tell the hivemind that...shhh

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell