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Why risk versus reward doesn't matter
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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#261 - 2013-04-06 17:05:14 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:

I'm not trying to "address the functionality of concord", I'm not "speaking of the need and ability of that ingame mechanic", I'm just getting you to admit that when you said earlier that concord doesn't protect, you were incorrect.

And yes, contrary to your claim concord has everything to do with "the risk vs reward factor of concord", since the only rewards available to someone for ganking someone if concord wasn't present would have to be "a killmail".


Concord is not there to protect. It is there to avenge. Protection implies prevention.

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Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#262 - 2013-04-06 17:06:13 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Concord is not there to protect. It is there to avenge. Protection implies prevention.

And it does prevent a ton of ganks.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#263 - 2013-04-06 17:15:38 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Concord is not there to protect. It is there to avenge. Protection implies prevention.

And it does prevent a ton of ganks.


By your reasoning, Concord would prevent ALL ganks through deterrent protection. This is not true.

Because deterrent CAN be used as protection, it does not define it.

Concord is absolute by mechanics, in their acts of retribution to the one(s) who ganked.

Yes, Concord is a deterrent to gankers. Risk Vs Reward.

Concord does not PROTECT. Pilots are on their own to do what they want. Period.

With consequences. Because Risk Vs Reward is the biggest factor.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#264 - 2013-04-06 17:24:57 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
By your reasoning, Concord would prevent ALL ganks through deterrent protection. This is not true.

No, that is not my reasoning. If it had been my reasoning, I would've phrased my previous post differently; I didn't.

Murk Paradox wrote:
Concord does not PROTECT.

Except concord does protect. If it didn't protect, then removing concord would have absolutely no effect.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#265 - 2013-04-06 17:36:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Murk Paradox
Lord Zim wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
By your reasoning, Concord would prevent ALL ganks through deterrent protection. This is not true.

No, that is not my reasoning. If it had been my reasoning, I would've phrased my previous post differently; I didn't.

Murk Paradox wrote:
Concord does not PROTECT.

Except concord does protect. If it didn't protect, then removing concord would have absolutely no effect.



Concord is still a deterrent. It's a cost of doing business if you are a ganker, a teacher if you make a mistake. It is not a protector.

Oh, and for the record, the only difference with Concord being there as opposed to not, is the fact the ganker got blown up. The victim still lost. Therefore was not protected. The victim did not get a portion of loss back from Concord, Concord did not help or pay the victim anything. Only punished the aggressor.

Have a nice day.

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Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#266 - 2013-04-06 17:50:06 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Concord is still a deterrent. It's a cost of doing business if you are a ganker, a teacher if you make a mistake. It is not a protector.

It protects through deterrence. It's a protector.

Murk Paradox wrote:
Oh, and for the record, the only difference with Concord being there as opposed to not, is the fact the ganker got blown up.

And that acts as a deterrence from wanton ganking. If that deterrence hadn't been there to protect hisec, every ship which was flying about would be getting ganked (or at the very least attempted ganked). It's a protector.

Murk Paradox wrote:
The victim still lost. Therefore was not protected.

The fact the deterrence didn't work that one time doesn't mean the deterrence isn't working as a protection, it just means that he either was too juicy a target, came across someone who really doesn't like him, or just someone who willingly throws his ship (and secstatus) away for *****'n'giggles.

It's a protector.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#267 - 2013-04-06 18:08:02 UTC
Nexus Day wrote:
...I could mine gold in the Congo or in Alaska. In the Congo there are less barriers to entry... .
How did you arrive at this incorrect conclusion?
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#268 - 2013-04-06 18:39:58 UTC
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/protect

pro·tect Pronunciation (pr-tkt)
tr.v. pro·tect·ed, pro·tect·ing, pro·tects
1. To keep from being damaged, attacked, stolen, or injured; guard. See Synonyms at defend.
2. To help (domestic industry) with tariffs or quotas on imported goods.
3. To assure payment of (drafts or notes, for example) by setting aside funds.
4. Sports To attempt to hold (a lead) by playing careful defense and avoiding risky plays.
5. Baseball
a. To swing at a pitch near (home plate) in order to avoid being called out on strikes.
b. To swing at a pitch so as to give (a base runner) a better chance of advancing.
[Middle English protecten, from Latin prtegere, prtct- : pr-, in front; see pro-1 + tegere, to cover; see (s)teg- in Indo-European roots.]
pro·tecting·ly adv.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
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protect [prəˈtɛkt]
vb (tr)
1. to defend from trouble, harm, attack, etc.
2. (Economics) Economics to assist (domestic industries) by the imposition of protective tariffs on imports
3. (Business / Commerce) Commerce to provide funds in advance to guarantee payment of (a note, draft, etc.)
[from Latin prōtegere to cover before, from pro-1 + tegere to cover]

Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003
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pro•tect (prəˈtɛkt)

v.t.
1. to defend or guard from attack, invasion, loss, insult, etc.; cover; shield.
2. to guard (an industry) from foreign competition by imposing import duties.
v.i.
3. to provide, or be capable of providing, protection.
[1520–30; < Latin prōtēctus, past participle of prōtegere to shield, cover, protect]
Random House Kernerman Webster's College Dictionary, © 2010 K Dictionaries Ltd. Copyright 2005, 1997, 1991 by Random House, Inc. All rights reserved.
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Thesaurus Legend: Synonyms Related Words Antonyms
Verb 1. protect - shield from danger, injury, destruction, or damage; "Weatherbeater protects your roof from the rain"
cover for - provide an excuse or alibi for someone so as to cover up guilt; "I won't lie and cover for you"
defend - be on the defensive; act against an attack
immunise, immunize - law: grant immunity from prosecution
overprotect - protect excessively; "Don't overprotect your son--he is an adult now!"
look out - to protect someone's interests; "A man's gotta look out for his family"
cover - hold within range of an aimed firearm
ward, guard - watch over or shield from danger or harm; protect; "guard my possessions while I'm away"
defend, guard, hold - protect against a challenge or attack; "Hold that position behind the trees!"; "Hold the bridge against the enemy's attacks"
shield, screen - protect, hide, or conceal from danger or harm
charm - protect through supernatural powers or charms
palisade, wall, fence in, fence, surround - surround with a wall in order to fortify
safeguard - make safe
cover - protect or defend (a position in a game); "he covered left field"
cover - be responsible for guarding an opponent in a game
mothproof - protect from moths; "mothproof woollen clothes during the summer"
body guard - accompany and protect from physical harm
insure - take out insurance for
cover - to take an action to protect against future problems; "Count the cash in the drawer twice just to cover yourself"
preserve, keep - maintain in safety from injury, harm, or danger; "May God keep you"
2. protect - use tariffs to favor domestic industry
trade - the commercial exchange (buying and selling on domestic or international markets) of goods and services; "Venice was an important center of trade with the East"; "they are accused of conspiring to constrain trade"
assist - act as an assistant in a subordinate or supportive function
Based on WordNet 3.0, Farlex clipart collection. © 2003-2012 Princeton University, Farlex Inc.
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protect
verb keep someone safe, defend, keep, support, save, guard, secure, preserve, look after, foster, shelter, shield, care for, harbour, safeguard, watch over, stick up for (informal), cover up for, chaperon, give someone sanctuary, take someone under your wing, mount or stand guard over He vowed to protect her all the days of her life.
attack, threaten, assault, expose, betray, endanger, assail, expose to danger

Collins Thesaurus of the English Language – Complete and Unabridged 2nd Edition. 2002 © HarperCollins Publishers 1995, 2002
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Translations
Select a language:
-----------------------

protect (prəˈtekt) verb
to guard or defend from danger; to keep safe. She protected the children from every danger; Which type of helmet protects the head best?; He wore a fur jacket to protect himself against the cold.
proˈtected adjective
(of certain animals or birds) protected by law from being shot etc.
proˈtection (-ʃən) noun
1. the act of protecting or state of being protected. He ran to his mother for protection; This type of lock gives extra protection against burglary.
2. something that protects. The trees were a good protection against the wind.
proˈtective (-tiv) adjective
giving, or intended to give, protection. protective clothing/glasses.

I did not see "deter" in there at all.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#269 - 2013-04-06 18:43:48 UTC
Same site-

pun·ish Pronunciation (pnsh)
v. pun·ished, pun·ish·ing, pun·ish·es
v.tr.
1. To subject to a penalty for an offense, sin, or fault.
2. To inflict a penalty for (an offense).
3. To handle roughly; hurt: My boots were punished by our long trek through the desert.
v.intr.
To exact or mete out punishment.
[Middle English punissen, punishen, from Old French punir, puniss-, from Latin poenre, pnre, from poena, punishment, from Greek poin; see kwei-1 in Indo-European roots.]
punish·a·bili·ty n.
punish·a·ble adj.
punish·er n.
Synonyms: punish, correct, chastise, discipline, castigate, penalize
These verbs mean to subject a person to something negative for an offense, sin, or fault. Punish is the least specific: The principal punished the students who were caught cheating.
To correct is to punish so that the offender will mend his or her ways: Regulations formerly permitted prison wardens to correct unruly inmates.
Chastise implies either corporal punishment or a verbal rebuke, as a means of effecting improvement in behavior: I chastised the bully by giving him a thrashing. The sarcastic child was roundly chastised for insolence.
Discipline stresses punishment inflicted by an authority in order to control or to eliminate unacceptable conduct: The worker was disciplined for insubordination.
Castigate means to censure or criticize severely, often in public: The judge castigated the attorney for badgering the witness.
Penalize usually implies the forfeiture of money or of a privilege or gain because rules or regulations have been broken: Those who file their income-tax returns late will be penalized.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
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punish [ˈpʌnɪʃ]
vb
1. (Law) to force (someone) to undergo a penalty or sanction, such as imprisonment, fines, death, etc., for some crime or misdemeanour
2. (Law) (tr) to inflict punishment for (some crime, etc.)
3. (tr) to use or treat harshly or roughly, esp as by overexertion to punish a horse
4. (tr) Informal to consume (some commodity) in large quantities to punish the bottle
[C14 punisse, from Old French punir, from Latin pūnīre to punish, from poena penalty]
punisher n
punishing adj
punishingly adv

Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003
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pun•ish (ˈpʌn ɪʃ)

v.t.
1. to subject to pain, loss, confinement, or death as a penalty for some offense or fault.
2. to inflict such a penalty for (an offense or fault): to punish theft.
3. to handle or treat harshly or roughly; hurt.
4. Informal. to consume; deplete: to punish a bottle of wine.
v.i.
5. to inflict punishment.
[1300–50; Middle English punischen < Middle French puniss-, long s. of punir < Latin pūnīre, derivative of poena penalty, pain]
pun′ish•ing•ly, adv.
Random House Kernerman Webster's College Dictionary, © 2010 K Dictionaries Ltd. Copyright 2005, 1997, 1991 by Random House, Inc. All rights reserved.
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punish

execute - Derives from Latin exsequi, "carry out, follow up; punish."
gruelling - Comes from the verb gruel, "to exhaust, punish."
punish - Derives from Latin punire, "punish," which came from poena, "penalty, punishment."
penal, punitive - Penal means "relating to punishment," while punitive means "serving to punish."
Farlex Trivia Dictionary. © 2012 Farlex, Inc. All rights reserved.
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This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#270 - 2013-04-06 18:43:58 UTC
Thesaurus Legend: Synonyms Related Words Antonyms
Verb 1. punish - impose a penalty on; inflict punishment on; "The students were penalized for showing up late for class"; "we had to punish the dog for soiling the floor again"
penalise, penalize
avenge, retaliate, revenge - take revenge for a perceived wrong; "He wants to avenge the murder of his brother"
tar-and-feather - smear the body of (someone) with tar and feathers; done in some societies as punishment; "The thief was tarred and feathered"
execute, put to death - kill as a means of socially sanctioned punishment; "In some states, criminals are executed"
pillory - punish by putting in a pillory
castigate - inflict severe punishment on
amerce - punish with an arbitrary penalty
victimise, victimize - punish unjustly
scourge - punish severely; excoriate
discipline, sort out, correct - punish in order to gain control or enforce obedience; "The teacher disciplined the pupils rather frequently"
Based on WordNet 3.0, Farlex clipart collection. © 2003-2012 Princeton University, Farlex Inc.
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punish
verb discipline, correct, castigate, chastise, beat, sentence, whip, lash, cane, flog, scourge, chasten, penalize, bring to book, slap someone's wrist, throw the book at, rap someone's knuckles, give someone the works (slang), give a lesson to George has never had to punish the children.

Collins Thesaurus of the English Language – Complete and Unabridged 2nd Edition. 2002 © HarperCollins Publishers 1995, 2002
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I think we know which one fits Concord better.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#271 - 2013-04-06 18:47:20 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
I did not see "deter" in there at all.

That would be because deterrence is a tool used to enact said protection.

Murk Paradox wrote:
I think we know which one fits Concord better.

Nobody's said concord wasn't a punisher.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#272 - 2013-04-06 18:52:17 UTC
So you're just word wrapping to have a fact suit your theories, got it.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#273 - 2013-04-06 18:55:02 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
I did not see "deter" in there at all.

That would be because deterrence is a tool used to enact said protection.



You also said they were a protector. They do not fit in the dictionary for such a description.

I can't do any better than to use "your" dictionary to prove me right, sorry.

Good try though.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#274 - 2013-04-06 18:58:34 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Murk Paradox wrote:
I think we know which one fits Concord better.



Ok, then to what purpose do you think CONCORD punishes Criminals if not to protect their would-be or actual victims?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#275 - 2013-04-06 18:59:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Zim
Murk Paradox wrote:
You also said they were a protector. They do not fit in the dictionary for such a description.

I can't do any better than to use "your" dictionary to prove me right, sorry.

Good try though.

Quote:
protect (prəˈtekt) verb
to guard or defend from danger; to keep safe. She protected the children from every danger; Which type of helmet protects the head best?; He wore a fur jacket to protect himself against the cold.

Does a helmet protect against everything? No. Does a jacket protect against all cold? No. Does concord's deterrence protect against everything? No.

Concord's still a protector. It protects hisec from gankers. It protects by punishing the gankers. It's also a punisher. Nothing's stopping it from being given both labels.

Murk Paradox wrote:
So you're just word wrapping to have a fact suit your theories, got it.

No, that would be you.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#276 - 2013-04-06 19:02:26 UTC
Oh, and for posterity, to give you the benefit of the doubt, I also looked up "deter".


deter
verb
1. discourage, inhibit, put off, frighten, intimidate, daunt, hinder, dissuade, talk out of Jail sentences have done nothing to deter the offenders.
2. prevent, stop, check, curb, damp, restrain, prohibit, hinder, debar Capital punishment does not deter crime.

Collins Thesaurus of the English Language – Complete and Unabridged 2nd Edition. 2002 © HarperCollins Publishers 1995, 2002
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-----------------------

deter (diˈtəː) – past tense, past participle deˈterred – verb
to make less willing or prevent by frightening. She was not deterred by his threats.
deˈterrent (-ˈte-) , ((American) -ˈtə:-) noun, adjective
(something) that deters. The possession of nuclear weapons by nations is thought to be a deterrent against nuclear war itself; a deterrent effect.

So, we know Concord punishes, it's in the dictionary and fits. We know that Concord deters, it's in the dictionary and fits. We know that Concord is not explained by your dictionary's terms for "protect" unless YOU make it fit by wrapping your words.

Not me.

You.

Baseless assumptions did not win you this argument sir. Your tools used to try to prove yourself right failed you.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#277 - 2013-04-06 19:03:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Murk Paradox
RubyPorto wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
I think we know which one fits Concord better.



Ok, then to what purpose do you think CONCORD punishes Criminals if not to protect their would-be or actual victims?



To "deter". And to "punish".

Has nothing to do with the victim, has everything to do with the transgressor. They enforce the law. For the good of Empire's society. Look, I linked the dictionary's terms for those words. If you don't want to listen to me or think I'm right, fine. Don't listen to me.

Read the godamn dictionary for yourself.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#278 - 2013-04-06 19:06:32 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Murk Paradox wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
I think we know which one fits Concord better.



Ok, then to what purpose do you think CONCORD punishes Criminals if not to protect their would-be or actual victims?



To "deter". And to "punish".

Has nothing to do with the victim, has everything to do with the transgressor. They enforce the law. For the good of Empire's society. Look, I linked the dictionary's terms for those words. If you don't want to listen to me or think I'm right, fine. Don't listen to me.

Read the godamn dictionary for yourself.



For the good of Society, OK. So why is punishing criminals good for Society?


Oh, and I did:
Murk Paradox wrote:


pro•tect (prəˈtɛkt)

v.t.
1. to defend or guard from attack, invasion, loss, insult, etc.; cover; shield.
2. to guard (an industry) from foreign competition by imposing import duties.
v.i.
3. to provide, or be capable of providing, protection.


Thesaurus Legend: Synonyms Related Words Antonyms
Verb 1.
defend - be on the defensive; act against an attack


Protecting is Defending. Defending is Acting against an Attack. What does CONCORD do if not Act against an attack?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#279 - 2013-04-06 19:07:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Zim
What concord does is:
Murk Paradox wrote:
protect
verb keep someone safe

through
Murk Paradox wrote:
deter
verb
1. discourage, inhibit, put off, frighten, intimidate, daunt, hinder, dissuade, talk out of Jail sentences have done nothing to deter the offenders.
2. prevent, stop, check, curb, damp, restrain, prohibit, hinder, debar Capital punishment does not deter crime.

by
Murk Paradox wrote:
Verb 1. punish - impose a penalty on; inflict punishment on;


In short, it protects (i.e. it keeps someone safe) through deterrence (by discouraging ganking), through punishment (blowing up whomever isn't deterred).

Murk Paradox wrote:
So, we know Concord punishes, it's in the dictionary and fits. We know that Concord deters, it's in the dictionary and fits. We know that Concord is not explained by your dictionary's terms for "protect" unless YOU make it fit by wrapping your words.

A helmet is put on your head for protection, it doesn't always protect if you fall too hard or at the wrong angle. Same goes for concord, it's protection, through deterrence, backed up by punishment against violators.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#280 - 2013-04-06 19:09:28 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
I think we know which one fits Concord better.



Ok, then to what purpose do you think CONCORD punishes Criminals if not to protect their would-be or actual victims?



To "deter". And to "punish".

Has nothing to do with the victim, has everything to do with the transgressor. They enforce the law. For the good of Empire's society. Look, I linked the dictionary's terms for those words. If you don't want to listen to me or think I'm right, fine. Don't listen to me.

Read the godamn dictionary for yourself.



For the good of Society, OK. So why is punishing criminals good for Society?


Oh, and I did:
Murk Paradox wrote:


pro•tect (prəˈtɛkt)

v.t.
1. to defend or guard from attack, invasion, loss, insult, etc.; cover; shield.
2. to guard (an industry) from foreign competition by imposing import duties.
v.i.
3. to provide, or be capable of providing, protection.


Thesaurus Legend: Synonyms Related Words Antonyms
Verb 1.
defend - be on the defensive; act against an attack


Protecting is Defending. Defending is Acting against an Attack. What does CONCORD do if not Act against an attack?


Because chaos is the enemy of order. It is unwanted. therefore discouraged from being present.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.