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Marauders buffs
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StrongSmartSexy
Phenix Revolution
#101 - 2013-04-06 07:45:19 UTC  |  Edited by: StrongSmartSexy
Drake Doe wrote:
Mjd and target spectrum breaker for the successful escape

MJD assumes you haven't been scrambled and target spectrum breaker almost never works against small gangs.
Unless Marauders get covert ops cloaks (which would be an overpowered element on a battleship), a scan probe bonus would be completely out of place.

You would simply use a T3 instead since they are faster, cheaper, safer, take less time to train for and can use cov ops cloaks. Granted Marauders would still dish out more DPS but this advantage alone doesn't outweigh the risks it would have or the numerous advantages of T3.
whoyoulookingat
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#102 - 2013-04-06 08:19:13 UTC  |  Edited by: whoyoulookingat
For those not in the know, T2 BS were asked for right after the release of T2 cruisers. It took bl**dy years for the player base to eventually persuade CCP to actually release them as their concern was

"We don't want these ships to be complete powerhouses that steamroll everything in sight"

After many years of ideas being thrown about, the Marauder class was eventually released but with a catch...

CCP never wanted them to be used in any type of PvP role whatsoever! Because of this, Sensor strength was intentionally made very low, Fitting requirements were tweaked (try fitting 4 x 1400's on a vargur + dps mods & a decent tank), only 4 slots for weapons & the rest of the highs for utility.


They were only ever released so mission runners had their own dedicated ship.

Something I did a long time ago for laugh was pimp one out, had some corp mates RSB me (got the lock time down to under 3 secs against a frig) & they sent a few pew pew ships out to get me.

Result was... well, lets just say I didn't lose my ship & we were all surprised at how powerfull these things were in the right hands!!

If they boosted the sensor strength, I would expect to see gangs of these floating around & I personally, wouldn't want to come across them!

Could the actually role bonuses be looked at? Maybe, but every time you boost the role of one ship, you take away something from another so carefull consideration would be required in what to tweak.

Other ships can do missions quicker than a marauder, that I don't disagree on. Hell, I can actually use my CS and that will clear missions quicker than most BS hulls.

Pirate factions are better at running missions I here. And ?? So are alot of ships but I'm not seeing people mention those..


Remember, not everyone runs multiple accounts so these (I would say) are more geared towards those that do have just the one.

And here's the clever bit... Don't like flying one and prefer something else?

DON'T FLY ONE THEN

**edit**

This post was made in the bonus room of AE 4 with the whole room aggro'd & my 'lil 'ol self sat there not moving...
The ability to do that tell me that there isn't much wrong with these ships.
They do what they were designed for... End of.

**edited bit**

Soz if anything sounds like rambling.. also went off for the odd smoke and coffee so may have forgotten what I was writing about! ShockedLol
Ager Agemo
Rainbow Ponies Incorporated
#103 - 2013-04-06 09:59:13 UTC
Given the time required to fly properly a marauder, and the production issues and price tag, i wouldnt mind a marauder steamroalling in pvp, its the same as machariels, they can steamroll anything on their path pretty much, yet you dont see machariel fleets.
marVLs
#104 - 2013-04-06 10:41:51 UTC
Yeah, all those ideas to make marauders pure pvp ships is just stupid, and CCP know it. That's because of thier price.

Dudes cry here to make them pvp but they wont be flying them even if this change happened Lol
Marauders PVP = not even 0,5% of players would be flying them
Marauders PVE = now here we got a two-digit number
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#105 - 2013-04-06 11:58:13 UTC
supernova ranger wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
supernova ranger wrote:
So I can finally fly Marauders but won't even buy one cause they are useless. Their role to mission and salvage is over with a noctis present and their firepower is less then that of their pirate counterparts while being just as expensive.

I'd like to see the Marauders kept in play but used more effectively where noctises can't go. I think by giving them bonuses to target spectrum breakers, +warp core stabilization, and the re-target lock time reduced for de-cloaking would be a good starting place to see them move into lowsec to do missions.



First, marauders will get a balance pass at some point. And I am not saying they don't need some updates. But they are not as bad as you seem to claim.

I don't have experience with all of them, but I can talk about the Kronos/vindicator.

Using similar fits (both standard incursion fits) they actually perform similarily.

Kronos with blasters and Void does 1361 DPS
Vindicator with blasters and void does 1456DPS

Kronos does it however with only 4 turrets vs 8. So lower cap usage and ammo costs.
Kronos can fit utility in the highs. For example in incursions it can save the day when a logi disconnects (been in that situation several times).
Kronos has standard T2 resists.

At current sell prices they cost:

Kronos- 850,000000.00
Vindicator- 1,500,000,000.00

So in reality, the Kronos is about half the cost of the Vindicator. Does similar damage with half the guns. The only real thing the Vindicator has going for it is a lower training time.


Bottom line, yes they could still use some balancing. But they aren't as horrible as you are making them out to be.


fair enough, the vindicator pulls away from the other maruaders in price but there is still the golem, vargur, and paladin
against the bhaalgorn, machariel, and rattlesnake which close that isk gap - i think the vindicator is expensive as it is because it is a special case being able to go shields or armor and has web bonuses.



Comparing the Bhaalgorn, and rattlesnake, to their golem, and paladin counterparts is just silly. the bhaalgorn is absolutely terrible for pve, compared to the paladin. Paladins are amazing solo, and great as part of a group, for anomalies and missions. Absolutely tear stuff up. When I used to live in catch, and in delve, some of the most active anomaly runners always used packs of paladins because of how good they were, and cost wasn't an issue. The golem is way better than the rattlesnake, provided you can hit your targets.

Marauders are great as they are, (though the golem needs a bigger sig radius bonus to torpedos), reducing their cargo would limit their ability to pack tons of ammo or scoop valuable modules, thus crippling part of their designed role, and upping their sensor strength against ECM is COMPLETELY counter productive to the intent that they should not be good for pvp. This thread sounds far more like "Make marauders as good as faction BS in pvp" and not much like "Marauders are bad for PvE". Perhaps because they aren't bad for PvE.
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#106 - 2013-04-06 11:59:58 UTC
To mare wrote:
Remove the jam weakness and make them 5 turret/launchers (adjust fittings)

Change the tractor beam bonus to something more useful for pvp


Not a pvp ship.

Marauders are intended to be PvE platforms. If you want more turrets/launchers, less jam weakness, and no tractor beam bonus, fly ANY other battleship. ALL the other battleship roles were built for pvp. This is the one line of battleship not designed for pvp, so leave it alone.
supernova ranger
The End of Eternity
#107 - 2013-04-06 12:25:58 UTC
Arronicus wrote:
supernova ranger wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
supernova ranger wrote:
So I can finally fly Marauders but won't even buy one cause they are useless. Their role to mission and salvage is over with a noctis present and their firepower is less then that of their pirate counterparts while being just as expensive.

I'd like to see the Marauders kept in play but used more effectively where noctises can't go. I think by giving them bonuses to target spectrum breakers, +warp core stabilization, and the re-target lock time reduced for de-cloaking would be a good starting place to see them move into lowsec to do missions.



First, marauders will get a balance pass at some point. And I am not saying they don't need some updates. But they are not as bad as you seem to claim.

I don't have experience with all of them, but I can talk about the Kronos/vindicator.

Using similar fits (both standard incursion fits) they actually perform similarily.

Kronos with blasters and Void does 1361 DPS
Vindicator with blasters and void does 1456DPS

Kronos does it however with only 4 turrets vs 8. So lower cap usage and ammo costs.
Kronos can fit utility in the highs. For example in incursions it can save the day when a logi disconnects (been in that situation several times).
Kronos has standard T2 resists.

At current sell prices they cost:

Kronos- 850,000000.00
Vindicator- 1,500,000,000.00

So in reality, the Kronos is about half the cost of the Vindicator. Does similar damage with half the guns. The only real thing the Vindicator has going for it is a lower training time.


Bottom line, yes they could still use some balancing. But they aren't as horrible as you are making them out to be.


fair enough, the vindicator pulls away from the other maruaders in price but there is still the golem, vargur, and paladin
against the bhaalgorn, machariel, and rattlesnake which close that isk gap - i think the vindicator is expensive as it is because it is a special case being able to go shields or armor and has web bonuses.



Comparing the Bhaalgorn, and rattlesnake, to their golem, and paladin counterparts is just silly. the bhaalgorn is absolutely terrible for pve, compared to the paladin. Paladins are amazing solo, and great as part of a group, for anomalies and missions. Absolutely tear stuff up. When I used to live in catch, and in delve, some of the most active anomaly runners always used packs of paladins because of how good they were, and cost wasn't an issue. The golem is way better than the rattlesnake, provided you can hit your targets.

Marauders are great as they are, (though the golem needs a bigger sig radius bonus to torpedos), reducing their cargo would limit their ability to pack tons of ammo or scoop valuable modules, thus crippling part of their designed role, and upping their sensor strength against ECM is COMPLETELY counter productive to the intent that they should not be good for pvp. This thread sounds far more like "Make marauders as good as faction BS in pvp" and not much like "Marauders are bad for PvE". Perhaps because they aren't bad for PvE.


What happened to the Paladins when they were engaged by pvp players? I believe people on this thread are not looking for a ship to pvp per say but be able to defend themselves in a pvp environment.

It sounds very odd that a flock of paladins were running around in hostile space uncontested, by any chance would you be speaking of nullbears? A null bear isn't much different then a carebear and if this is the case, those ships were essentially operating under near identical rules as if they were in highsec.

I say this because any sane fleet commander should know he is fully capable of bringing down any number of marauders with minor loses if his/her fleet contains even one ecm boat.
supernova ranger
The End of Eternity
#108 - 2013-04-06 12:33:09 UTC
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
I think a lot of people are looking at Marauders from many different angles, with no clear view of where we want them to be.

Marauders are primarily a PvE ship. It has some great bonuses and some funky abilities. That's ok.
Also, what role is it supposed to fill? It's description states that its basically a lone wolf, operating for extended periods behind enemy lines, wreeking havoc and destruction. But it doesn't. Many other ships fill this role much better, and as a T2 ship which specialises in this field, nothing should outshine it in its designated role.

But it's not viable as a PvP ship. That just doesn't seem right. I still believe that PvE should be a reflection of PvP. It's what this game is about after all. But I digress. We all agree that their failure as a PvP ships is due to the combination of relatively low EHP and its ridiculously low sensor strength. They also have a seriously low Scan Res, whihc for a solo ship that needs to react to situations with haste, seems fairly counter intuitive. The real problem here though is that in order to raise EHP, (be it resists, base HP or a combination of the two,) sensor strength and scan res we have to lose something.

Again, this all comes down to one thing. What role is this ship filling? What sort of PvE is this ship aimed at?

That is the first question to ask when looking to rebalance these ships. Not, "How do we make it a better fleet ship?" or "How can we make it tank better?"


The ability to run lowsec/ nullsec missions and sites with a isk efficiency (including risk) that makes them equal or slightly above doing the same thing in highsec.
PavlikX
Scan Stakan
HOLD MY PROBS
#109 - 2013-04-06 12:41:16 UTC  |  Edited by: PavlikX
Quote:
You would simply use a T3 instead since they are faster, cheaper, safer, take less time to train for and can use cov ops cloaks. Granted Marauders would still dish out more DPS but this advantage alone doesn't outweigh the risks it would have or the numerous advantages of T3.

StrongSmartSexy
Single solution will kill interest in the game. Using your logic all ships except tengu T3 cruisers must be banned
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#110 - 2013-04-06 14:11:42 UTC
Marauders are fine. They're no more vulnerable in PvE than any other ship (hint: any PvE fit ship will melt quickly to anyone remotely competent) and they can do fairly well in PvP given their drawbacks. They're just not intended to be great at PvP for a number of reasons.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
supernova ranger
The End of Eternity
#111 - 2013-04-06 15:11:41 UTC
Andski wrote:
Marauders are fine. They're no more vulnerable in PvE than any other ship (hint: any PvE fit ship will melt quickly to anyone remotely competent) and they can do fairly well in PvP given their drawbacks. They're just not intended to be great at PvP for a number of reasons.


So if they are going to melt in pvp while doing pve so they can't be brought to insecure space where they will be harassed. They are outperformed by a number of ships in isk/ skill investment to isk reward in highsec. But they can do pvp as well as a much less expensive t1 battleship... A typhoon can do fairly well in pvp too right? likewise with Hyperion, Armageddon, maelstroms, and rokhs...

How are Marauders fine when you are saying they have no place in eve? And I'm talking about all marauders having their place.

I wish people would stop trolling this thread when they say marauders are just fine how they are when it's obvious from the number of forum posts and lack of degrading evidence that something, if even a little is wrong with them...

But I'm always open to being proved wrong, if I was always right... well lets not go there, it's a scary thought involving allot more things in eve..............

If people really feel marauders don't need to be changed, post a link to a video or old kill mails outside of your home region. Without this I don't feel their is sufficient backing to justify such opinions against what I see as a stronger majority wanting what they see as justifiable changes.

That and seeing that your in goonswarm doesn't exactly shout that your following the honor code and it may be very likely you are following another agenda here all together... I'm skeptical of your intentions, but would welcome anything you might say in a rebutal.
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#112 - 2013-04-06 16:08:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Mina Sebiestar
StrongSmartSexy wrote:
Some thoughts:

Kronos:
Once one of two ships that had a bonus to webbing % effectiveness and the only ship to combine it with hybrid weapon bonuses.
Not long after, CCP changed Serpentis Ships' 5% less penalty to MWD cap amount bonus to webbing % effectiveness thus trumping one of the only reasons/advantages to ever use a Kronos for PvP since the Vindicator could do the same but has more EHP, an extra mid slot, 5 heavy drones, higher sensor strength and takes less time to jump into one.

Currently, much cheaper than the Vindi but nowhere near as viable for PvP for reasons applicable to all marauders.
At the very least, the Kronos deserves 125 bandwidth to field 5 heavy drones.

If CCP decides to make marauders a little more PvP focused, how would the Kronos be balanced to make it almost as preferable as a Vindi because a 600m cheaper price tag isn't enough.

Paladin:
5% to capacitor capacity bonus needs to be changed to 7.5% Energy turret optimal range and the base capacitor amount increased just like they did with the Apocalypse way back in the Trinity 1.1 patch - seriously, why wasn't this change made during the same patch?
Paladin is based off the apocalypse hull and while the latter ship got a needed buff, paladin was ignored.

Golem:
Should deserve the raven hull's 5% rate of fire bonus in place of the almost-useless and inappropriate 5% explosion velocity bonus. Powergrid of torps or the ship itself could use some attention too.

Vargur:
Given that all the other marauders can fit a full rack of T2 guns/launchers from any of their respective weapon class, by what reason or logic is the Vargur denied the ability to fit T2 1400s without the use of multiple powergrid mods?
Vargur deserves a pg buff to comfortably fit artillery.


NPC jamming was changed from a fixed chance to sensor strength based over a year ago. This along with the recent AI buff to mission rats makes marauders annoying to use against Guristas jamming and forces you to waste mid slots on ECCM or stay perma-jammed. PvE aspect aside, the low sensor strength makes them too easily jammed in PvP by every ship with a drone bay thanks to ec-300s.

Marauder sensor strength needs to be equal to or greater than their T1 hulls.

Also as people keep pointing out, with the advent of the Noctis and salvage drones, salvaging and looting on the fly with a Marauder is inefficient in comparison - with this in mind, it wouldn't be a bad idea to move one of the utility high slots to a mid slot for every marauder.
Marauders should become a little more viable in PvP.


I liked you.

other comments...

Considering that pirate ships have 23 slots in total to fit stuff compared to marauders 20 slots there is rly a room for extra mid slot. even if it means removing high slot so to stay to 23/20 ratio it would help more than 3 utility high that are much useless.

5 guns is ok but not needed imo just improve drone bandwith and total drone space to compensate dps lacking as well as ability to carry various drones.

If it is for me i would remove local tank bonus as it is making it focused on mission only boat and replaced it with either rezist or buffer bonus so it can be used more effectively in fleet engagements like 80 man incursion fleets(where local tank means nothing) as well as wh pve fleets...niche of being l4 pve boat is sad imo bring em up to date with other pve content....that would also make them more viable in pvp too nobody wants local boost marauder trolling their own fleet.

Also confirming that Vargur pg is brutally nerfed spending isk amount of another vargur hull in implants and gear and still not be able to fit t2 guns like any other ship in game is serious imbalance and is limiting ship even further than rest of marauders.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#113 - 2013-04-06 18:18:03 UTC
StrongSmartSexy wrote:
Drake Doe wrote:
Mjd and target spectrum breaker for the successful escape

MJD assumes you haven't been scrambled and target spectrum breaker almost never works against small gangs.
Unless Marauders get covert ops cloaks (which would be an overpowered element on a battleship), a scan probe bonus would be completely out of place.

You would simply use a T3 instead since they are faster, cheaper, safer, take less time to train for and can use cov ops cloaks. Granted Marauders would still dish out more DPS but this advantage alone doesn't outweigh the risks it would have or the numerous advantages of T3.

Target spectrum breakers really help when you know how to use them, coupled with the mjd it becomes easier to break gate camps

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
StrongSmartSexy
Phenix Revolution
#114 - 2013-04-06 19:01:19 UTC  |  Edited by: StrongSmartSexy
PavlikX wrote:
Quote:
You would simply use a T3 instead since they are faster, cheaper, safer, take less time to train for and can use cov ops cloaks. Granted Marauders would still dish out more DPS but this advantage alone doesn't outweigh the risks it would have or the numerous advantages of T3.

StrongSmartSexy
Single solution will kill interest in the game. Using your logic all ships except tengu T3 cruisers must be banned

Badly implemented ideas & content kill interest in the game and you've misunderstood the intention of my post.
I'm pointing out that turning Marauders into a solo exploration vessel wouldn't work well because it wouldn't be feasible and using comparisons with T3 ships shows why.

Solo exploration into low/null sec favors the use of T3s because they have tank, dps and the ability to use covert ops cloaks which lets them travel & scan with immense safety. Simply adding a scan probe bonus on Marauders wouldn't automatically make it a viable option alongside T3 ships for solo exploration.

Players would find themselves with a one-sided choice; a 400m ship that can cloak & slip by gate camps and hide from danger or the 900m brick that does over twice the dps but takes over twice as long to train for and a very high risk of getting caught and blown up. No point in providing a secondary solution if it can't really compete with an existing solution.

I want Marauders to get buffs or a rebalance as much as anyone else but this isn't the best direction to take them into.
StrongSmartSexy
Phenix Revolution
#115 - 2013-04-06 19:20:49 UTC
Drake Doe wrote:
StrongSmartSexy wrote:
Drake Doe wrote:
Mjd and target spectrum breaker for the successful escape

MJD assumes you haven't been scrambled and target spectrum breaker almost never works against small gangs.
Unless Marauders get covert ops cloaks (which would be an overpowered element on a battleship), a scan probe bonus would be completely out of place.

You would simply use a T3 instead since they are faster, cheaper, safer, take less time to train for and can use cov ops cloaks. Granted Marauders would still dish out more DPS but this advantage alone doesn't outweigh the risks it would have or the numerous advantages of T3.

Target spectrum breakers really help when you know how to use them, coupled with the mjd it becomes easier to break gate camps

TSB usage doesn't really go beyond "align to celestial X, activate TSB and pray".
TSBs have a random chance of working which is increased the more your ship has been simultaneously target locked but this chance is still incredibly slim with typical gate camp numbers.
Meanwhile, a T3 doesn't have to waste 2 midslots just for a CHANCE at escaping.
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#116 - 2013-04-06 19:51:42 UTC
StrongSmartSexy wrote:
Drake Doe wrote:
StrongSmartSexy wrote:
Drake Doe wrote:
Mjd and target spectrum breaker for the successful escape

MJD assumes you haven't been scrambled and target spectrum breaker almost never works against small gangs.
Unless Marauders get covert ops cloaks (which would be an overpowered element on a battleship), a scan probe bonus would be completely out of place.

You would simply use a T3 instead since they are faster, cheaper, safer, take less time to train for and can use cov ops cloaks. Granted Marauders would still dish out more DPS but this advantage alone doesn't outweigh the risks it would have or the numerous advantages of T3.

Target spectrum breakers really help when you know how to use them, coupled with the mjd it becomes easier to break gate camps

TSB usage doesn't really go beyond "align to celestial X, activate TSB and pray".
TSBs have a random chance of working which is increased the more your ship has been simultaneously target locked but this chance is still incredibly slim with typical gate camp numbers.
Meanwhile, a T3 doesn't have to waste 2 midslots just for a CHANCE at escaping.

And where in the op did t3s come into discussion? Name another t2 that can break camps without cloaking and you'll have an actual point

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
StrongSmartSexy
Phenix Revolution
#117 - 2013-04-06 20:19:01 UTC  |  Edited by: StrongSmartSexy
Drake Doe wrote:
StrongSmartSexy wrote:
Drake Doe wrote:
StrongSmartSexy wrote:
Drake Doe wrote:
Mjd and target spectrum breaker for the successful escape

MJD assumes you haven't been scrambled and target spectrum breaker almost never works against small gangs.
Unless Marauders get covert ops cloaks (which would be an overpowered element on a battleship), a scan probe bonus would be completely out of place.

You would simply use a T3 instead since they are faster, cheaper, safer, take less time to train for and can use cov ops cloaks. Granted Marauders would still dish out more DPS but this advantage alone doesn't outweigh the risks it would have or the numerous advantages of T3.

Target spectrum breakers really help when you know how to use them, coupled with the mjd it becomes easier to break gate camps

TSB usage doesn't really go beyond "align to celestial X, activate TSB and pray".
TSBs have a random chance of working which is increased the more your ship has been simultaneously target locked but this chance is still incredibly slim with typical gate camp numbers.
Meanwhile, a T3 doesn't have to waste 2 midslots just for a CHANCE at escaping.

And where in the op did t3s come into discussion? Name another t2 that can break camps without cloaking and you'll have an actual point

It wasn't in the OP. It came into the discussion when people suggested turning Marauders into solo exploration ships - a role that would compete with T3 but cannot do it on the same level because Marauders are fat bricks that are bound to get caught on gate camps or inside anomalies/plexes when attempting to 'explore' solo whilst T3 can slip by with ease using covert ops cloaks.

Once again, repeating myself several times, (and taking into account the counter-arguements for TSB and MJD) the actual point is that this suggestion to turn Marauders into exploration ships wouldn't be viable as players would simply choose T3 instead for half the price, half the training time and risk-free travel.

And we can all agree that giving Marauders similar tools to T3 such as interdiction nullifying or cov cloaks would definitely make them imbalanced.
Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#118 - 2013-04-06 21:34:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Gabriel Karade
Arronicus wrote:
To mare wrote:
Remove the jam weakness and make them 5 turret/launchers (adjust fittings)

Change the tractor beam bonus to something more useful for pvp


Not a pvp ship.

Marauders are intended to be PvE platforms. If you want more turrets/launchers, less jam weakness, and no tractor beam bonus, fly ANY other battleship. ALL the other battleship roles were built for pvp. This is the one line of battleship not designed for pvp, so leave it alone.
But, the point made earlier was that having a 'PVE combat ship' doesn't stack with the intent of Eve, nor recent drives to make PVE combat more akin to PVP.

If we we're discussing a true 'player vs environment' (i.e. hacking/scanning/mining) ship then fine, that has a role, but a 'PVE designed' combat ship makes no sense in Eve's sandbox and actually, it is a rather outdated concept given the way things have moved on - look at the evolution of shiny Pirate Battleship fits in Incursions (Marauders don't compete equally on that playing field) as an example.

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#119 - 2013-04-06 23:31:25 UTC
Drake Doe wrote:
StrongSmartSexy wrote:
Drake Doe wrote:
StrongSmartSexy wrote:
Drake Doe wrote:
Mjd and target spectrum breaker for the successful escape

MJD assumes you haven't been scrambled and target spectrum breaker almost never works against small gangs.
Unless Marauders get covert ops cloaks (which would be an overpowered element on a battleship), a scan probe bonus would be completely out of place.

You would simply use a T3 instead since they are faster, cheaper, safer, take less time to train for and can use cov ops cloaks. Granted Marauders would still dish out more DPS but this advantage alone doesn't outweigh the risks it would have or the numerous advantages of T3.

Target spectrum breakers really help when you know how to use them, coupled with the mjd it becomes easier to break gate camps

TSB usage doesn't really go beyond "align to celestial X, activate TSB and pray".
TSBs have a random chance of working which is increased the more your ship has been simultaneously target locked but this chance is still incredibly slim with typical gate camp numbers.
Meanwhile, a T3 doesn't have to waste 2 midslots just for a CHANCE at escaping.

And where in the op did t3s come into discussion? Name another t2 that can break camps without cloaking and you'll have an actual point

It wasn't in the OP. It came into the discussion when people suggested turning Marauders into solo exploration ships - a role that would compete with T3 but cannot do it on the same level because Marauders are fat bricks that are bound to get caught on gate camps or inside anomalies/plexes when attempting to 'explore' solo whilst T3 can slip by with ease using covert ops cloaks.

Once again, repeating myself several times, (and taking into account the counter-arguements for TSB and MJD) the actual point is that this suggestion to turn Marauders into exploration ships wouldn't be viable as players would simply choose T3 instead for half the price, half the training time and risk-free travel.

And we can all agree that giving Marauders similar tools to T3 such as interdiction nullifying or cov cloaks would definitely make them imbalanced.[/quote]

But t3s have to make sacrifices will fitting for solo exploration which means they aren't as effective as bringing a dedicated prober, unlike in this case where you don't step on your dps while fitting

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#120 - 2013-04-06 23:33:11 UTC
Arronicus wrote:
To mare wrote:
Remove the jam weakness and make them 5 turret/launchers (adjust fittings)

Change the tractor beam bonus to something more useful for pvp


Not a pvp ship.

Marauders are intended to be PvE platforms. If you want more turrets/launchers, less jam weakness, and no tractor beam bonus, fly ANY other battleship. ALL the other battleship roles were built for pvp. This is the one line of battleship not designed for pvp, so leave it alone.

All other battleships are meant for pvp? That explains the macherial and rattlesnake

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--