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Marauders buffs
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Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#81 - 2013-04-05 12:26:14 UTC
Part of the problem here is also price of T2 ships and the 2 rigs issue as T2 large rigs are too expensive to use alongside paying the of the hull and mods ends up being over a bil for a ship that is only useful in battleship small skirmish fights.
When you could easily use a pirate bs with ewar options or much cheaper navy or T1 counterparts.

Also the role of this ship is obsolete at least the way things are now anyway no one needs these ships for anything its role is a luxury mission boat when it should really have a proper pvp role.
perhaps with black ops being more useful in what seems a similar role it would be best to give it a new role and maybe name change to match and just make it a tanky brawler class after-all its what bs do best.

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

0racle
Galactic Rangers
#82 - 2013-04-05 12:51:21 UTC  |  Edited by: 0racle
Paikis wrote:
Let them equip a siege module! /end-troll

Seriously though, what's wrong with making them slow battleships with large tanks and high damage? Pirate BSs should all receive a speed/agility boost (to about the level of the Machariel, maybe a bit less) and they can be the fast battleships, and have the Marauders be the big, slow guns.



Mini-dreadnoughts. Mother of god.
PavlikX
Scan Stakan
HOLD MY PROBS
#83 - 2013-04-05 13:36:09 UTC
Quote:
Again, this all comes down to one thing. What role is this ship filling? What sort of PvE is this ship aimed at?

Hakan MacTrew
You've gave correct answer in your post.
Quote:
It's description states that its basically a lone wolf, operating for extended periods behind enemy lines, wreeking havoc and destruction
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#84 - 2013-04-05 14:29:56 UTC
wow...
jump drive? i dont think so.
mini-dread? nope nope..
3 rigs? not one t2 ship has 3. itll get alot of bonuses that would normally be burned up in rig slot, so i think no.
it has a role. its not bonuses enough to fill that role. with all the ships now and their bonuses, the code is there, we just have to assign it to the ship.

to operate behind enemy lines, it needs to be tough. it is not any tougher than t1 tier 1
to wreak havoc it needs damage-adequate bonus assigned
for operating extended periods, it need a large cargo hold-adequate size already
it needs to be able to find thing- it needs a scan probe bonus
it needs sensor strength-mine was jammed by a veldspar roid last week. the sun replected off of it and i got jammed.
it needs to be mobile, not a super heavy, juggernaught. we can make a juggernaught class out f the tier 3's, but the marauder needs to be able to go behind enemy lines and sustain itself.
cloakin bonuses perhaps
bonuses to salvaging maybe either in cycle time or %. i could see double speed salvagers with the 2x tractors and salvaging drones.
better resists


i think with a few tweaks, it would justify the price tag and time expended training for it.
Ager Agemo
Rainbow Ponies Incorporated
#85 - 2013-04-05 15:11:22 UTC
Mole Guy wrote:
wow...
jump drive? i dont think so.
mini-dread? nope nope..
3 rigs? not one t2 ship has 3. itll get alot of bonuses that would normally be burned up in rig slot, so i think no.
it has a role. its not bonuses enough to fill that role. with all the ships now and their bonuses, the code is there, we just have to assign it to the ship.

to operate behind enemy lines, it needs to be tough. it is not any tougher than t1 tier 1
to wreak havoc it needs damage-adequate bonus assigned
for operating extended periods, it need a large cargo hold-adequate size already
it needs to be able to find thing- it needs a scan probe bonus
it needs sensor strength-mine was jammed by a veldspar roid last week. the sun replected off of it and i got jammed.
it needs to be mobile, not a super heavy, juggernaught. we can make a juggernaught class out f the tier 3's, but the marauder needs to be able to go behind enemy lines and sustain itself.
cloakin bonuses perhaps
bonuses to salvaging maybe either in cycle time or %. i could see double speed salvagers with the 2x tractors and salvaging drones.
better resists


i think with a few tweaks, it would justify the price tag and time expended training for it.




woah look at that... so basically marauders are SO ******* broken we need to give them 7 bonuses @.@
StrongSmartSexy
Phenix Revolution
#86 - 2013-04-05 15:16:24 UTC
Mole Guy wrote:
It needs sensor strength - mine was jammed by a veldspar roid last week. the sun reflected off of it and i got jammed.

lmao

It seems to be almost universally agreed that the sensor strength hole needs to be patched. For a ship that requires more training time than pirate battleships, it doesn't make sense anymore.
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#87 - 2013-04-05 15:23:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Mole Guy
woah look at that... so basically marauders are SO ******* broken we need to give them 7 bonuses @.@

it already gets a few of those now.
im talking about possibilities. doesnt need all of them, those are suggestions.

and if the command ship and other t2 ships get 4 bonuses, plus resists and more armor or whatever, these should get the same or something similar.

cant count the sensors as a bonus. so bring the sensors back up. this isnt a bonus, its just something that needs to be done.

a marauder should be able to do to a tier 1 bs what a hac can do to a tier 1 cruiser. i slaughter bc in my hacs so the marauder should be able to do the same, but the geddon has a better tank due to 1 more low and 1 more rig and a lot smaller sig radius.
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#88 - 2013-04-05 16:05:52 UTC
Deerin wrote:
Didn't read all the pages but I've seen one suggestion popping up frequently

Quote:

Buff ECM strength


The moment you do this, the whole BS warfare will change. BS's with T2 resist line will be nigh unbreakable in a pvp environment with logistics. The only reason they are not being used en-masse for pvp is their low sensor str, and it should stand that way for a good reason.

So, please don't.



we have discussed this. they dont have any better of a tank than an abaddon and barely as good as a geddon since the geddon has more lows and 3 rig slots. i had a navy geddon with 2 t2 large reppers, 75% across the board and tons of armor. thats a t1 faction ship which needs no more training than a geddon. now, add another 10x skill, plus other requirements on top of that. these ships are in a class of their own, why do you keep dragging them back and lumping them with typical bs?

they are a t2 bs. when ccp designed them, they were skerd of power. now, look at the ships we have. most are dripping with power and these got left behind. they need a role change towards exploration. it would be a nice ship for it. tweak the ship, tweak the description, less armor, more resists= SAME EHP. it will enable them to self rep better "for extended stays in enemy territory".

t2 bs are better than t1...not here.

t2 hac slaught t1 cruisers also pirate and faction. this isnt the case with the marauder
t2 interceptors slaughter t1 frigs- any t1 except maybe dramiel and daredevil or so..
t2 AS slaughter t1. i will put my vengy against any t1 frig.

now, im not saying i want the marauder to be the bestest most killer ship WTFBBQPWNAGE AND a bag of tater chips style ship.
what i am advocating for is a more defining set of bonuses to be useful.
this is to be on its own, way out in space. not running back to a station everytime it needs to scan something down. not to be running back for the noctis because its hella faster that way. not to run back to dock because it gets jammed by reflections off of asteroids.

drop the armor to compensate for the resists.
raise the sensors because its the right thing to do
keep the cargo bay
give it a scan bonus
keep the tractor and salvagers
keep the x2 weapons
allow us to roam deep into null sec, far from a pos and still be able to operate effectively. allow those mission runners in high sec the ability to run without being jammed.
let us use it to scan down plexes or wh and go in and scan stuff in there to fight.

maybe, give it a slight hacking bonus. make it the new exploration ship. not fragile, but a stout war craft.
give it the geddons armor, the apocs sig radius. im not asking for a beast. just something useful as a solo, deep space operative.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#89 - 2013-04-05 16:35:32 UTC
After giving it some thought on the role, marauders should not get any kind of resistance buff it would distract them form the "lone wolf" role they are supposed to have.
Instead I propose they get an increase to the local rep bonus maybe to 10% per level or even 12.5% per level and then become flagged to no remote assistance.
The damage bonus from the racial battleship skill could be replaced with something else, maybe 10% to scan probe strength. Then the role bonus would be increased to 150% damage of racial weapon.
The end result could look something like this

Kronos
Gallente Battleship
10% Scan Strength of Scan Probes
10% bonus to the Velocity Factor of Stasis Webifier (I personally would like this to be changed to an Optimum Range Increase to Large Hybrid Turrets)

Marauders
10%(12.5%) bonus to the repair amount of Armor Systems
7.5% increase to Large Hybrid Turret Tracking

Role Bonus
150% Increase to Large Hybrid Turret Damage
100% Increase to the Range and Velocity of Tractor Beams
(maybe 99% reduction to the CPU needs of scan probe launchers)
Can not Receive remote assistance

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#90 - 2013-04-05 17:16:31 UTC
I'm not feeling the scan probe bonus on battleships. The covert ops probe ship is already mostly displaced by Tech III ships, if we let a battleship also displace it I think that the frigate niche would almost disappear. The frigate would probably be reduced down to "alt used to scan down 1.08 ratio ships because we don't want to put grav rigs and virtue implants in our combat mains." The idea kind of rubs me the wrong way.

Same thing with giving it a cloaking bonus, since that's suppose to be the black ops niche.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#91 - 2013-04-05 17:29:21 UTC
Ersahi Kir wrote:
I'm not feeling the scan probe bonus on battleships. The covert ops probe ship is already mostly displaced by Tech III ships, if we let a battleship also displace it I think that the frigate niche would almost disappear. The frigate would probably be reduced down to "alt used to scan down 1.08 ratio ships because we don't want to put grav rigs and virtue implants in our combat mains." The idea kind of rubs me the wrong way.

Same thing with giving it a cloaking bonus, since that's suppose to be the black ops niche.

It is a lone wolf ship, it should be working solo, not in a small gang, or if it is in a gang maybe a couple other marauders.
as far as T3s overshadowing covert ops frigates, a single subsystem costs as much as the entire covert ops frigate so I do not believe they have replaced them.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#92 - 2013-04-05 18:00:29 UTC
it takes a week to get into a cov ops. it takes a year to be able to fly a marauder safely and use all the weapons and whatnot...i hardly think the frig fleet is going to be replaced.
you must be a cov ops builder guy.

its easy to jump in a cov ops if u have one handy. but if yer a long way from home (which the name implies), you need to be self sufficient.

the cloak bonus was merely a suggestion for hiding form the enemy. for allowing sustained deep system recon and having the ability to defend itself or even go rampaging.

the 150% damage bonus (plus loosing it from your racial bs) equates to the same damage, but just written differently. i like that.
it isnt like we dont already have ships with the 200% weapon damage (daredevil).
StrongSmartSexy
Phenix Revolution
#93 - 2013-04-05 18:12:57 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Ersahi Kir wrote:
I'm not feeling the scan probe bonus on battleships. The covert ops probe ship is already mostly displaced by Tech III ships, if we let a battleship also displace it I think that the frigate niche would almost disappear. The frigate would probably be reduced down to "alt used to scan down 1.08 ratio ships because we don't want to put grav rigs and virtue implants in our combat mains." The idea kind of rubs me the wrong way.

Same thing with giving it a cloaking bonus, since that's suppose to be the black ops niche.

It is a lone wolf ship, it should be working solo, not in a small gang, or if it is in a gang maybe a couple other marauders.
as far as T3s overshadowing covert ops frigates, a single subsystem costs as much as the entire covert ops frigate so I do not believe they have replaced them.

These ideas of turning Marauders into solo exploration ships are very badly thought out.
Dedicated scanning ships like covert frigs and T3s have key advantages at their disposal; covert ops cloaks, fast align times, interdiction nullifiers etc. - Marauders don't have (and wouldn't get) any of these evasive advantages, so simply sticking a scan bonus on them just for the sake of their name and description is counter-intuitive.

Once again, the billion isk price of these ships wouldn't justify taking them solo for adventures into WH/low/null sec since they are even slower and less agile than a battleship and cannot scan & move in the relative safety of a covert ops cloak like T3s and covert frigs.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#94 - 2013-04-05 18:31:42 UTC
StrongSmartSexy wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Ersahi Kir wrote:
I'm not feeling the scan probe bonus on battleships. The covert ops probe ship is already mostly displaced by Tech III ships, if we let a battleship also displace it I think that the frigate niche would almost disappear. The frigate would probably be reduced down to "alt used to scan down 1.08 ratio ships because we don't want to put grav rigs and virtue implants in our combat mains." The idea kind of rubs me the wrong way.

Same thing with giving it a cloaking bonus, since that's suppose to be the black ops niche.

It is a lone wolf ship, it should be working solo, not in a small gang, or if it is in a gang maybe a couple other marauders.
as far as T3s overshadowing covert ops frigates, a single subsystem costs as much as the entire covert ops frigate so I do not believe they have replaced them.

These ideas of turning Marauders into solo exploration ships are very badly thought out.
Dedicated scanning ships like covert frigs and T3s have key advantages at their disposal; covert ops cloaks, fast align times, interdiction nullifiers etc. - Marauders don't have (and wouldn't get) any of these evasive advantages.


You are right they should not get the evasive functions of covert ops and T3 ships, but they do have massive combat capabilities compared to cloaky nullified T3 ship, should they be caught they should be trying to fight there way out, not run away.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#95 - 2013-04-05 18:33:06 UTC
thats why i mentioned the cloaky bonus.
i didnt mention cov ops cloak or anything, just a removal of the scan penalty.

drop probes, cloak up, probe, fly to your destination and bust heads.

clean up and roll.
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#96 - 2013-04-05 18:43:14 UTC
Mole Guy wrote:
thats why i mentioned the cloaky bonus.
i didnt mention cov ops cloak or anything, just a removal of the scan penalty.

drop probes, cloak up, probe, fly to your destination and bust heads.

clean up and roll.



Black ops can't use covert ops cloaks either, that's basically the same bonus they have. Unless they've changed something since I've last looked, which is entirely possible.
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#97 - 2013-04-05 19:06:16 UTC
black ops get a speed bonus while cloaked and they get their decloaking penalty removed. that gives them a tactical advantage.

all i said was drop the scan resultion penalty. they can slow to 10% like normal cloaks, have the cloaking delay like normal cloaks.
when they decloak and target to return to fighting, then their penalty shows up.

its an option that would allow you to hide from the enemy if need be then return to fighting.
StrongSmartSexy
Phenix Revolution
#98 - 2013-04-06 04:12:17 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
StrongSmartSexy wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Ersahi Kir wrote:
I'm not feeling the scan probe bonus on battleships. The covert ops probe ship is already mostly displaced by Tech III ships, if we let a battleship also displace it I think that the frigate niche would almost disappear. The frigate would probably be reduced down to "alt used to scan down 1.08 ratio ships because we don't want to put grav rigs and virtue implants in our combat mains." The idea kind of rubs me the wrong way.

Same thing with giving it a cloaking bonus, since that's suppose to be the black ops niche.

It is a lone wolf ship, it should be working solo, not in a small gang, or if it is in a gang maybe a couple other marauders.
as far as T3s overshadowing covert ops frigates, a single subsystem costs as much as the entire covert ops frigate so I do not believe they have replaced them.

These ideas of turning Marauders into solo exploration ships are very badly thought out.
Dedicated scanning ships like covert frigs and T3s have key advantages at their disposal; covert ops cloaks, fast align times, interdiction nullifiers etc. - Marauders don't have (and wouldn't get) any of these evasive advantages.


You are right they should not get the evasive functions of covert ops and T3 ships, but they do have massive combat capabilities compared to cloaky nullified T3 ship, should they be caught they should be trying to fight there way out, not run away.

Which is essentially a death sentence since you'll be getting caught very often as you have no innate way of getting past gate camps nor can you run from a fight that turns bad because you are flying a brick.

Doesn't really matter if you have a good tank and good dps. If you are flying a brick solo through low/null sec and you get caught then chances are you will die. Covert ops cloaks and nullifiers are far more useful and risk free than attempting to "fight your way out" as they are combat preventative measures.

There is just no rational way to turn Marauders into this idea of solo exploration/hunter battleships. You wouldn't be able to scan down sites or targets without people seeing you coming on probes or D-scan and not to mention battleship hulls have very slow lock times.
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#99 - 2013-04-06 06:34:39 UTC
Mjd and target spectrum breaker for the successful escape

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
PavlikX
Scan Stakan
HOLD MY PROBS
#100 - 2013-04-06 07:36:51 UTC  |  Edited by: PavlikX
Changing role bonus to the 150% turret/launcher damage is a perfect idea, btw. It allows to give another one bonus from the skill.
Quote:
Mjd and target spectrum breaker for the successful escape

very true.
Exploration BS should exist. In this case another scenario looks very possible. Marauder will be primary explor/hunt BS, and when T3 BSs will appear they will be cool alternative to the marauders. CCP's new logic about specialized T2 and universal T3 will work here. But the main question is - will CCP hear us or they will introduce another one strange decision? I realy hope so, because, as i said, marauder pilots spended a lot of time in EVE, bringing all this time profit for the CCP's very good game. We are not huge elite alliance, but developers must hear our opinion. Personnaly i will be highly disappointed if marauders will not be reoworked generaly.